Who's more to blame for the struggles - Clifford or Cho?

azuresou1 · Post #1 » by **azuresou1** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:46 pm

Hawks fan here - I've just finished writing up synopses for all the teams in the Southeast division, and I wanted to gauge Charlotte fans for their take on the root cause of the badness (you can read my assessment if you're interested here).

It looks to me that the roster has huge fit issues on offense and a lack of defensive talent with MKG and Taylor out, and that even Pops or Rick Carlisle would struggle to make this a .500 team. Thus it looks to me (outside observer) that Rich Cho is primarily to blame.

On the other hand my coworker from UNC swears Steve Clifford is a bottom 5 coach in the league and that the Hornets have sufficient talent, but the coaching schemes, rotations, and lineups he puts out are the 'real' issue.

Who's right here? Is one of them more to blame than the other?

Also a review of my synopsis would be much appreciated.

BeesWax · Post #2 » by **BeesWax** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:54 pm

It is definitely Clifford right now but Cho has had some input in the mistakes. Clifford is not good enough to use the pieces he has even though they don't fit great. Clifford seems to have an ego and has let that get in the way of what is best for the team. Playing Maxiell over Biz to start the season and benching Lance at the end of the games have both been huge mistakes on him. He loves to blame a player for not trying hard enough or not working then kisses up to Al who has given no effort this season unless it helps his numbers. I think Clifford is losing the team by blaming players who are trying to win and not calling out Al who has been one of our worst players statistically this season.

BlackOutBuzz · Post #3 » by **BlackOutBuzz** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:54 pm

Bottom 5 coach? I'm a UNC fan, but I'm learning that I hate UNC fans.

Clifford holds some blame due to being stuck in his ways a bit, but it's not his fault he was given an ill-fitting roster.

It's also hard for me to "blame" Cho. It's not his fault Utah matched Hayward, we needed more talent and Lance was the next obvious choice. I also loved the Vonleh pick, but you've gotta think Cliff wanted McDermott, so for that I blame Cho.

It's like Cho is still looking 5 years down the road while MJ/Clifford want to win now.

Sent from my SM-G900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

HornetJail · Post #4 » by **HornetJail** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:00 pm

Everyone.

Rich Cho for not getting some spacing and blowing $7M on Marvin Williams.
Clifford for not getting the rotations/adjustments right on time.
The players for not doing their share.

Nobody is to blame anymore than the other. Everyone sucks right now.

Post #5 » by **yosemiteben** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:55 pm

jdm3 wrote:Clifford is not good enough to use the pieces he has even though they don't fit great. Clifford seems to have an ego and has let that get in the way of what is best for the team.

Wow. So you would really like to fire him now? You think he actually is a bad coach?

countryboi · Post #6 » by **countryboi** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:02 pm

its about 90 percent Cho...this is the team he put together this is his baby, if it doesnt work he has no one to blame but himself. no coach could balance an unbalanced roster like this. that said we lost sooo many games vs crap teams like the lakers and pacers those are on clifford.

Liver_Pooty · Post #7 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:11 pm

Dave Gettleman.

countryboi · Post #8 » by **countryboi** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:14 pm

Liver_Pooty wrote:Dave Gettleman.

Dont forget Riverboat Ron

azuresou1 · Post #9 » by **azuresou1** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:47 pm

Any commentary on my synopsis?

BeesWax · Post #10 » by **BeesWax** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:57 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
jdm3 wrote:Clifford is not good enough to use the pieces he has even though they don't fit great. Clifford seems to have an ego and has let that get in the way of what is best for the team.

Wow. So you would really like to fire him now? You think he actually is a bad coach?

I think as a coach he is just young and overwhelmed. He does not know how to use his pieces well and is trying to be much about him. If you are going to keep Al we need a new coach but if you trade Al for pieces that better fit his defensive mindset he may be able to adjust and grow.

catch20two · Post #11 » by **catch20two** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:59 pm

azuresou1 wrote:Any commentary on my synopsis?

Your synopsis is correct. Very well written and summarized.

catch20two · Post #12 » by **catch20two** » Mon Dec 1, 2014 12:09 am

I'd blame Clifford probably a little more than Cho but they both deserve some heavy shade. Cho didn't do a great job putting together this roster this offseason but the talent on it also isn't as bad as the record indicates so that's where Clifford take the lion share. I think the bad rotations combined with favoritism of players regardless of how bad they play with no accountability is why we're off to this slow and ugly start to the season.

I say if Clifford started the season with Zeller starting at PF over Marv and Biz the backup C instead of Maxiell then we'd be sitting around or above .500 right now. I also wonder how much can we blame Cho when it seem like players like Marv were players that Cliff wanted. I'm not sure if Marv is a Cliff insisted signing but the way Cliff just decided to start him at PF without competition make me wonder.

BeesWax · Post #13 » by **BeesWax** » Mon Dec 1, 2014 12:10 am

azuresou1 wrote:Any commentary on my synopsis?

Not bad but I think it is more about the Al fit with Kemba and Lance then the Kemba and Lance fit. They seem to do fine on the court with each other with the second unit guys. The offense needs and overhaul and has since the first week. Just not sure Clifford knows how to use his pieces very well and make the best of the roster.

Post #14 » by **Diop** » Mon Dec 1, 2014 12:52 am

countryboi wrote:its about 90 percent Cho...this is the team he put together this is his baby, if it doesnt work he has no one to blame but himself. no coach could balance an unbalanced roster like this. that said we lost sooo many games vs crap teams like the lakers and pacers those are on clifford.

i feel a little sorry for Cho.

Lance appeared to not be his target, he went after Hayward hard to no avail, then lost out on the likes of Livingston and McBob.
It seemed he picked up Lance at the last minute. I remember plenty of posters on here questioning why we weren't chasing him.

I'm sure MJ's comments that we WILL sign another big name this off season put a lot of pressure on him.
He refused to back down in the draft, but he seems to have caved in this time.

The joy of being a GM I suppose, no excuses he built the team.

MasterIchiro · Post #15 » by **MasterIchiro** » Mon Dec 1, 2014 1:03 am

If Al is to be the dominant player on offense then he needs to be surrounded by guys like Afflalo and Hayward. Cho had the right idea targeting these players and prioritizing them for fit. His contingency plan was weak imo. He can redeem himself by trading Al for players that fit better with ball-dominant guards (Lance and Kemba) whose most valuable skill is dribble penetration. If Cho doesn't correct the roster, he gets the blame. If Cho addresses the issues with fit at the deadline, it's on Clifford and if Clifford can't get a revamped roster to click by the end of the season, I will turn on him as well. That's not to say I've turned on Cho - I will wait and see if he identifies an escape plan before I do. It seems pretty obvious to me that you salvage some value on Al before he opts out. If your plan is to commit to him after watching this disaster, it's a huge risk. Right now MJ needs to be totally rethinking making Al the face of his franchise.

Our talent minus Al is a couple years away but I feel we have as much young talent as most teams in the league, just nobody elite. The Pacers seem to be a good model but even they benefited from the emergence of Paul George to near elite status. The Raptors as well. Derozan is not elite but good enough given their overall talent and depth.

Liver_Pooty · Post #16 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Mon Dec 1, 2014 1:05 am

May as well tank the year out and pray that Cho actually gets a draft pick right for a change.

BlackOutBuzz · Post #17 » by **BlackOutBuzz** » Mon Dec 1, 2014 2:36 am

Liver_Pooty wrote:May as well tank the year out and pray that Cho actually gets a draft pick right for a change.

And, over Zeller, he should've taken...who exactly?

Sent from my SM-G900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

HornetJail · Post #18 » by **HornetJail** » Mon Dec 1, 2014 2:58 am

BlackOutBuzz wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:May as well tank the year out and pray that Cho actually gets a draft pick right for a change.

And, over Zeller, he should've taken...who exactly?

Sent from my SM-G900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

Cho shouldn't have been a pussy. He should have traded Kemba and drafted Michael Carter-Williams at 4, forget about Al and Lance. Our core should be Biyombo/MKG/MCW/Vonleh/Smart

Liver_Pooty · Post #19 » by **Liver_Pooty** » Mon Dec 1, 2014 2:59 am

BlackOutBuzz wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:May as well tank the year out and pray that Cho actually gets a draft pick right for a change.

And, over Zeller, he should've taken...who exactly?

Sent from my SM-G900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

Oh please. Im the leader of the Zeller bandwagon. I love that pick and still do.

BlackOutBuzz · Post #20 » by **BlackOutBuzz** » Mon Dec 1, 2014 3:01 am

"Gets a draft pick right for a change" implies otherwise, but whatever.

Sent from my SM-G900V using RealGM Forums mobile app