Kobe vs Lebron vs MJ: Who faced the toughest defenders/defenses?

[chrismikayla]

For better of worse these three wings are always compared to each other. I was curious about you guys opinions on who faced the toughest defenders/defenses on a regular basis?

[Quotatious]

Probably Kobe. He faced the Spurs defense a lot of times in the playoffs (and usually played very well against them), and he faced a top 5 defensive team every time he made the finals in his prime (including two of the best defenses ever - 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics).

[Hornet Mania]

Yeah, this one will probably be Kobe by a decent margin. The West has been brutal throughout his career, and he even has some overlap with a few of the tougher defensive opponents Lebron has faced in 08/10 Boston and 09 Orlando.

[mdonnelly1989]

Kobe Bryant by a pretty wide margin. Guards hadn't really started flourishing until the 2nd retirement of MJ's career. I'd even say Kobe has played straight up against better guard competition as a whole.

[Colbinii]

If I remember correctly, LeBron has faced the most defenses that would be considered elite.

[GYK]

I gotta look it up but I remember this from the PS
http://m.imgur.com/yz8FH5x
sorry I don't know how to post pics

[BallerTed]

Kobe by a good margin.

[magicmerl]

If I remember correctly, LeBron has faced the most defenses that would be considered elite.

Really? I think that this is easily Kobe here, but I would have gone with Jordan in 2nd simply because he had to get through the Knicks every year. Anthony Mason and Charles Oakley were no joke.

[G35]

Probably Kobe. He faced the Spurs defense a lot of times in the playoffs (and usually played very well against them), and he faced a top 5 defensive team every time he made the finals in his prime (including two of the best defenses ever - 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics).

Agree with this mostly because of the 2004 Pistons/2008 Celtics. Lebron faced the KG/Thibodeau Celtics and the Thibs/Bulls and the Spurs in the finals as well. Jordan faced the original Bad Boy Pistons, Riley Knicks, and Riley Heat.

It seems like the more recent defenses are technically superior/rotating, while the defense Jordan faced were more physical/intimidating......

[roriobane]

Kobe pretty easily.

No perimeter player in history has played better defenses than Bryant, and no star in history (outside of Shaq) has played better defensive comp overall: http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6142

oppDPAA" is opponent defensive points above average; it's league defensive rating minus team defensive rating. When there's an underscore, that's what it's weighted by -- "_mp" means it's weighted by minutes played in each game, and "_poss" means it's weighted by the individual possessions used in each game. So if you weight the average opponent Kobe's faced in his playoff career by the possessions he used in each game, their defensive rating has been 2.79 points/100 possessions better than the league average.

From the start of the Tim Duncan championship season in 1999 to the End of the Shaq/Kobe Lakers era in 2004 the yearwise league rating was 103.4 in the regular season and 103.0 in the playoffs. You might as well have hid your money under the mattress, because times were tough. These 6 years were the 6 lowest for ORating/DRating in the last 20 regular seasons and included the lowest 5 for the last 20 playoff seasons. Duncan played around 43% of his career playoff games during this stretch and 45.47% of his total playoff minutes, Shaq around 46.7% (51.5% of minutes) and Kobe 52% (and 56% of his total playoff minutes).

Average D rating of opponent Defenses for star players in their prime:

PS Prime Avg. Opp Drtg ▾
Shaquille O’Neal 101.9
Kobe Bryant 102.6
Kevin Garnett 103.5
Dwyane Wade 103.7
Tim Duncan 103.7
Karl Malone 103.9
Steve Nash 103.9
Dirk Nowitzki 103.9
LeBron James 104.4
Michael Jordan 105
Larry Bird 105.5
Hakeem Olajuwon 105.8
Charles Barkley 105.8
David Robinson 106.5
Magic Johnson 106.7

[Joao Saraiva]

Well not by average, but LeBron always faced elite D in the playoffs.
2006 - Pistons - #2 DRTG;
2007 - Pistons - #7 DRTG, SAS #2 DRTG;
2008 - Boston - #1 DRTG;
2009 - Hawks - #10 DRTG; Magic - #1 DRTG;
2010 - Celtics - #5 DRTG;
2011 - Celtics - #1 DRTG; Bulls - #2 DRTG; Dallas - #8 DRTG;
2012 - Knicks - #5 DRTG; Pacers - #9 DRTG; Celtics - #1 DRTG; OKC - #10 DRTG;
2013 - Pacers - #9 DRTG; SAS - #3 DRTG;
2014 - Pacers - #8 DRTG; SAS - #1 DRTG;
2015 - Hawks - #6 DRTG; GSW - #1 DRTG

In 10 playoff runs, LeBron faced the #1 DRTG team 6 times.
He faced 10 teams in the top 3 DRTG wise.
He faced 12 top 5 DRTG teams.

Averages won't tell you the entire story.

I'm a bit lazy but I'd like to know how many times Kobe faced the #1 DRTG team in the league or top 3 in DRTG teams. And the same for Jordan.

[JordansBulls]

Jordan faced the toughest defenders. Moncrief, Robertson, Rodman, Cooper, Payton to name a few of the DPOY players who guarded MJ.

[Jurassic_Park]

Kobe:

2000 - Phx #3 DRTG; Port #5 DRTG; Sac #10 DRTG
2001 - Spurs #2 DRTG; Phi #5 DRTG; Sac #7 DRTG; Port #9 DRTG;
2002 - NJ #1 DRTG; Spurs #2 DRTG; Sac #6 DRTG
2003 - Spurs #3 DRTG;
2004 - Spurs #1 DRTG; Detroit #2 DRTG; Houston #5 DRTG; Min #6 DRTG
2008 - Boston #1 DRTG; Spurs #3 DRTG; Denver #10 DRTG
2009 - Magic #1 DRTG; Houston #4 DRTG; Denver #8 DRTG; Utah #10 DRTG
2010 - Celtics #5 DRTG; OKC #9 DRTG; Utah #10 DRTG
2011 - NWO #10 DRTG; Dallas #8 DRTG
2012 - OKC #10 DRTG

Kobe faced 10 top 3 DRTG defences during these playoff runs
Kobe faced 4 #1 DRTG defences during these playoff runs
Kobe faced 15 top 5 DRTG defences during these playoff runs

[bballexpert]

Kobe had to go through the Spurs when they were at there peak damn near and thanks to him we missed out on some Championships. I don;t think any guard has done as well against the spurs then Kobe which saying something because we managed even shut Shaq down. Not to mention the early 2000's had some of the roughest d there was had Robinson, Ben, Kevin, and Duncan in there as well.

[Joao Saraiva]

Well, based on my post and Jurassic_Park's post I guess LeBron and Kobe faced a very similar level of defense trough their careers.

[LakerLegend]

Well not by average, but LeBron always faced elite D in the playoffs.
2006 - Pistons - #2 DRTG;
2007 - Pistons - #7 DRTG, SAS #2 DRTG;
2008 - Boston - #1 DRTG;
2009 - Hawks - #10 DRTG; Magic - #1 DRTG;
2010 - Celtics - #5 DRTG;
2011 - Celtics - #1 DRTG; Bulls - #2 DRTG; Dallas - #8 DRTG;
2012 - Knicks - #5 DRTG; Pacers - #9 DRTG; Celtics - #1 DRTG; OKC - #10 DRTG;
2013 - Pacers - #9 DRTG; SAS - #3 DRTG;
2014 - Pacers - #8 DRTG; SAS - #1 DRTG;
2015 - Hawks - #6 DRTG; GSW - #1 DRTG

In 10 playoff runs, LeBron faced the #1 DRTG team 6 times.
He faced 10 teams in the top 3 DRTG wise.
He faced 12 top 5 DRTG teams.


Averages won't tell you the entire story.

I'm a bit lazy but I'd like to know how many times Kobe faced the #1 DRTG team in the league or top 3 in DRTG teams. And the same for Jordan.

You've been corrected more than once that those Knicks in 2012 had half the roster injured/out in the playoffs.

Also Eastern Conference teams are going to look better defensively on paper than they really are because most of the conference has been offensively inept for the last 15 years.

Not even getting into the offensive boost the talent disparity between his miami teams and the rest of the conference creates.

[mysticOscar]

It's tough call between Kobe and Jordan. I have Lebron as third.

Kobe i think overall has had tougher opponents than Jordan in the post season...i guess that already partly answers the OP's question. However Kobe's opponents has had to respect Shaq which takes away some pressure from Kobe.

Jordan on the other hand garnered all the attention on defense and was better in utilizing his team mates than Kobe (i.e. made smarter decisions).

Even when the volume of shots started swinging towards perimeter players in the 90's causing NBA effeciency and pace to drop a overall...Jordan at age 35 still averaged at a TS% that Kobe never reached in the handcheck era.

So my conclusion is, Kobe had tougher opponents on the road to his rings with Shaq (in the 90's early 00's handcheck era)...however Jordan commanded more attention from opponents day in day out and played better.

With Lebron, his a distant 3rd for me, in regards to his opponents that he has had to go through in the post season compared to Kobe and Jordan. And all of his career (except for his rookie season)....he has played in the golden age for the perimeter players (open lanes due to 3pt shot, no handcheck and defensive 3 seconds). Not a knock on Lebron...i am talking about overall...and yes Lebron has had series and finals against tough opponents....but im saying overall compared to Kobe and Jordan.

[Joao Saraiva]

Well not by average, but LeBron always faced elite D in the playoffs.
2006 - Pistons - #2 DRTG;
2007 - Pistons - #7 DRTG, SAS #2 DRTG;
2008 - Boston - #1 DRTG;
2009 - Hawks - #10 DRTG; Magic - #1 DRTG;
2010 - Celtics - #5 DRTG;
2011 - Celtics - #1 DRTG; Bulls - #2 DRTG; Dallas - #8 DRTG;
2012 - Knicks - #5 DRTG; Pacers - #9 DRTG; Celtics - #1 DRTG; OKC - #10 DRTG;
2013 - Pacers - #9 DRTG; SAS - #3 DRTG;
2014 - Pacers - #8 DRTG; SAS - #1 DRTG;
2015 - Hawks - #6 DRTG; GSW - #1 DRTG

In 10 playoff runs, LeBron faced the #1 DRTG team 6 times.
He faced 10 teams in the top 3 DRTG wise.
He faced 12 top 5 DRTG teams.


Averages won't tell you the entire story.

I'm a bit lazy but I'd like to know how many times Kobe faced the #1 DRTG team in the league or top 3 in DRTG teams. And the same for Jordan.

You've been corrected more than once that those Knicks in 2012 had half the roster injured/out in the playoffs.

Also Eastern Conference teams are going to look better defensively on paper than they really are because most of the conference has been offensively inept for the last 15 years.

Not even getting into the offensive boost the talent disparity between his miami teams and the rest of the conference creates.

Well if you don't like to give credit to the East teams be my guest.

Kobe faced NJ as the #1 DRTG, Phi as #5 DRTG, Pistons as #2 DRTG, Boston as #1 DRTG, Magic as #1 DRTG, Boston as #5 DRTG.

By your own logic (not mine!) Kobe faced only one #1 DRTG team in his entire career, since East teams don't count. And he even lost against 2 of those teams who don't count. What a shame.

Next time you want to criticize LeBron that way, don't go about it on a blind basis. Because it will make your Laker player look bad. Try to find another way that makes Kobe look good and LeBron look bad, without having double standards. I know, it's difficult.

[LakerLegend]

Well not by average, but LeBron always faced elite D in the playoffs.
2006 - Pistons - #2 DRTG;
2007 - Pistons - #7 DRTG, SAS #2 DRTG;
2008 - Boston - #1 DRTG;
2009 - Hawks - #10 DRTG; Magic - #1 DRTG;
2010 - Celtics - #5 DRTG;
2011 - Celtics - #1 DRTG; Bulls - #2 DRTG; Dallas - #8 DRTG;
2012 - Knicks - #5 DRTG; Pacers - #9 DRTG; Celtics - #1 DRTG; OKC - #10 DRTG;
2013 - Pacers - #9 DRTG; SAS - #3 DRTG;
2014 - Pacers - #8 DRTG; SAS - #1 DRTG;
2015 - Hawks - #6 DRTG; GSW - #1 DRTG

In 10 playoff runs, LeBron faced the #1 DRTG team 6 times.
He faced 10 teams in the top 3 DRTG wise.
He faced 12 top 5 DRTG teams.


Averages won't tell you the entire story.

I'm a bit lazy but I'd like to know how many times Kobe faced the #1 DRTG team in the league or top 3 in DRTG teams. And the same for Jordan.

You've been corrected more than once that those Knicks in 2012 had half the roster injured/out in the playoffs.

Also Eastern Conference teams are going to look better defensively on paper than they really are because most of the conference has been offensively inept for the last 15 years.

Not even getting into the offensive boost the talent disparity between his miami teams and the rest of the conference creates.

Well if you don't like to give credit to the East teams be my guest.

Kobe faced NJ as the #1 DRTG, Phi as #5 DRTG, Pistons as #2 DRTG, Boston as #1 DRTG, Magic as #1 DRTG, Boston as #5 DRTG.

By your own logic (not mine!) Kobe faced only one #1 DRTG team in his entire career, since East teams don't count. And he even lost against 2 of those teams who don't count. What a shame.

Next time you want to criticize LeBron that way, don't go about it on a blind basis. Because it will make your Laker player look bad. Try to find another way that makes Kobe look good and LeBron look bad, without having double standards. I know, it's difficult.

I have absolutely no problem saying Kobe's faced "only one # DRTG team in his entire career", because this should about the overall depth of defensive competition they faced, not just the absolute best defenses.

[Joao Saraiva]

You've been corrected more than once that those Knicks in 2012 had half the roster injured/out in the playoffs.

Also Eastern Conference teams are going to look better defensively on paper than they really are because most of the conference has been offensively inept for the last 15 years.

Not even getting into the offensive boost the talent disparity between his miami teams and the rest of the conference creates.

Well if you don't like to give credit to the East teams be my guest.

Kobe faced NJ as the #1 DRTG, Phi as #5 DRTG, Pistons as #2 DRTG, Boston as #1 DRTG, Magic as #1 DRTG, Boston as #5 DRTG.

By your own logic (not mine!) Kobe faced only one #1 DRTG team in his entire career, since East teams don't count. And he even lost against 2 of those teams who don't count. What a shame.

Next time you want to criticize LeBron that way, don't go about it on a blind basis. Because it will make your Laker player look bad. Try to find another way that makes Kobe look good and LeBron look bad, without having double standards. I know, it's difficult.

I have absolutely no problem saying Kobe's faced "only one # DRTG team in his entire career", because this should about the overall depth of defensive competition they faced, not just the absolute best defenses.

I should add that Kobe for his entire career had, almost always, a better team with him and a better coach than LeBron by average. It makes offense easier. Therefore, I will give the defenses he faced less weight. Specially until 05, Since Shaq was the best player on the Lakers. I'll only count the teams he faced as the man, on the same role as James.

See? We can go arround this hater talk all day.

(I obviously give credit to the defenses Kobe faced from the East and the West, and the ones he faced when he was with Shaq, or Pau or anyone. I'm just going with the easy discredit stuff, something you like to do against LeBron James. It's actually pretty easy to do this against any player. It's also called being biased as hell.)