George Gervin vs Elgin Baylor

[chrismikayla]

Which of these high scoring forwards would you take for peak and/or career?

EDIT: On a side note, the more highlights I watch of Gervin, I believe other than Kareem's skyhook I can't think of another unstoppable shot like his finger roll due to his release.

[tsherkin]

Gervin was a considerably better scorer compared to Baylor, but it bears mention that Baylor was a better rebounder even with era adjustment, and he was a better ball-handler and passer; more than a small difference on D, as well. Interesting comparison.

First half decade or so of Baylor's career, you can make the case for Baylor. Thereafter, it's Gervin, easily, various factors contributing. On the balance of their careers, I'd say Gervin. Would have been interesting if Baylor hadn't buggered his knees, but c'est la vie.

[Quick Eye]

I would take Elgin Baylor over George Gervin. Even if I were to completely concede scoring to Gervin, Elgin rebounded and passed better. The thing that made Elgin very unique is that he loved to rebound the basketball more than score it. He wanted to average 20 rebounds a game and came very close. He prided himself on challenging power forwards and centers and getting the ball from them. Elgin could box out power forwards and centers for balls, would do the Dennis Rodman in terms of tipping the ball to himself and Elgin had very strong wrists and hands to manipulate/grasp the ball. Then Elgin loved to pass and could do the no-look, blind, peripheral passes. When you think of talented forwards like Larry Bird, LeBron James, Scottie Pippen, Grant Hill and the likes who were great passers, I always thought Elgin was in that list. He prided himself on passing and it got to the point some people wouldn't double Elgin because he hit the open man well for two-points.

Elgin played the guard, forward and center positions growing up. He was the ultimate utility man in college and his NBA game showed that "Mr. Potato Head Bucket-of-Parts" type of versatility to his game. He'd do little man and big man stuff all game.

[penbeast0]

Agree that Gervin was a one dimentional player; all he lived for was scoring (despite his shotblocking which is GOAT competitive for a SG, he was a below average defender). But he scored at an efficiency and volume that only Jordan and Kobe can compete with; and his teams generally outperformed their talent level (in my talent estimation which you may not agree with) while Baylor's didn't. So I lean to the Ice Man.

[mischievous]

Baylor for both peak and career imo. You can't just discount volume, even if it was in the 60s. He wasn't scoring at Oscar and Jerry West levels of efficiency, but he was pretty typically around league average or slightly over it in most seasons. Gervin has scoring clearly over him. But what else? Not defense, rebounding or playmaking. He doesn't have better accolades. Doesn't have more playoff success. Is his longevity better? Sure, but not by a monumnetal amount, especially when you consider Baylor played significantly more playoff games, and his total minutes played in the regular season isn't that far behind. Also, Fwiw, Gervin's career high PER is 24.7 while Baylor exceeded that in 4 different seasons. It's Baylor for me, but i can see why some might take Gervin.

[Johnlac1]

Once Baylor in his mid thirties stopped taking the bad shots he took early in his career (and which were common for that time), he became a much better shooter percentage-wise. As an all-around player, there's no contest....Baylor by a wide margin. And I love the iceman. But the Iceman's forte was just scoring points. Baylor could do that and a lot more.

[tsherkin]

Once Baylor in his mid thirties stopped taking the bad shots he took early in his career (and which were common for that time), he became a much better shooter percentage-wise.

Did he? Statistically, his FG% was basically the same across the breadth of his career, aside from 69-70, which was a shortened season at what was fairly low volume for him. It doesn't really fit the narrative of his career to say that there are anything other than a single-season improvement in his shooting percentages.

As I said earlier, I find this a fairly interesting comparison. I lean towards what pen was saying earlier, but this one comment seems a little at odds with the numbers. Would have been more interesting if he hadn't buggered his knees, though.

[Quotatious]

Once Baylor in his mid thirties stopped taking the bad shots he took early in his career (and which were common for that time), he became a much better shooter percentage-wise. As an all-around player, there's no contest....Baylor by a wide margin. And I love the iceman. But the Iceman's forte was just scoring points. Baylor could do that and a lot more.

To be fair, Baylor never even came close to Gervin in terms of shooting percentage, even in his best seasons. The only perimeter players from the sixties who scored as efficiently as Gervin were Robertson and West.

That being said, I think Baylor definitely deserves to be ranked higher all-time. Clearly better all-around player.
Gervin is a top 10 scorer of all-time, but he's a relatively mediocre all-around player. Really one-dimensional (good shotblocker and decent rebounder for his position, but that's it...poor overall defender, not much of a playmaker).

[Quotatious]

EDIT: On a side note, the more highlights I watch of Gervin, I believe other than Kareem's skyhook I can't think of another unstoppable shot like his finger roll due to his release.

I would say Alex English's jumpshot was the most unstoppable shot other than Kareem's skyhook. His release point on that jumper was so high that it was virtually impossible to block, I'd say it was even less defensible than Jordan's or Bird's fadeaway (and English was a tremendously accurate mid-range shooter, obviously).

Jerry West's pull-up J was very tough to contain, as well.

[Johnlac1]

Once Baylor in his mid thirties stopped taking the bad shots he took early in his career (and which were common for that time), he became a much better shooter percentage-wise. As an all-around player, there's no contest....Baylor by a wide margin. And I love the iceman. But the Iceman's forte was just scoring points. Baylor could do that and a lot more.

To be fair, Baylor never even came close to Gervin in terms of shooting percentage, even in his best seasons. The only perimeter players from the sixties who scored as efficiently as Gervin were Robertson and West.

That being said, I think Baylor definitely deserves to be ranked higher all-time. Clearly better all-around player.
Gervin is a top 10 scorer of all-time, but he's a relatively mediocre all-around player. Really one-dimensional (good shotblocker and decent rebounder for his position, but that's it...poor overall defender, not much of a playmaker).

While West improved his ballhandling and passing enough to be the Lakers main pg later in his career, Baylor was a better overall passer-ballhandler over the length of their two careers. Baylor was like the forerunner of players like Dr. J....forwards who could get the rebound and take the ball coast to coast either scoring or passing off for an assist.

[Owly]

EDIT: On a side note, the more highlights I watch of Gervin, I believe other than Kareem's skyhook I can't think of another unstoppable shot like his finger roll due to his release.

I would say Alex English's jumpshot was the most unstoppable shot other than Kareem's skyhook. His release point on that jumper was so high that it was virtually impossible to block, I'd say it was even less defensible than Jordan's or Bird's fadeaway (and English was a tremendously accurate mid-range shooter, obviously).

Jerry West's pull-up J was very tough to contain, as well.

Nowitzki fade-away? A fade-away is inherantly tough to block as you have to jump forwards with their backward motion to deny them the airspace to get it over you, but that's a high tariff manoeuvre with the risk of a foul call. Add in the fact it's a 7 footer doing it, who'd usually have a couple of inches or more over his matchup.

Other high or far back releases like Sikma, Wilkes come to mind as at least worth a mention.


For the main topic, my instinct is clearly Baylor as a genuinely dominant player at his peak (part of this being as noted he contributed in a lot more areas than Gervin), maybe the gap isn't as great as I'd instinctively think, but I believe there is one.