"Once more into the breach, dear friends; once more..." ---Shakespeare (Henry V)
So we'll go at least one more here; each one may be the last, so be heard. Target stop time for this one will be Friday night (in about 48 hours).
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"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
People have been questioning the strength of the early ABA enough that it has me again questioning my higher (than most) placement of Hawkins. As result, I've decided to flip-flop the relationship between him and McAdoo on my peaks list. Below is the comparison I'd done between he and McAdoo (and McHale). I was basically flipping a coin between McAdoo and Hawkins anyway.
1st ballot: Bob McAdoo '75
Spoiler:
Hawkins vs. McAdoo (vs. McHale)
To start off, let’s just look at some base stats….. ‘68 Hawkins rs per 100 poss: 26.6 pts, 13.4 reb, 4.55 ast @ 59.7% TS (+11.45% rTS) 28.8 PER, .273 WS/48 in 44.9 mpg ‘75 McAdoo rs per 100 poss: 35.6 pts, 14.5 reb, 2.3 ast @ 56.9% TS (+6.68% rTS) 25.8 PER, .242 WS/48 in 43.2 mpg ‘87 McHale rs per 100 poss: 31.9 pts, 12.1 reb, 3.1 ast @ 65.5% TS (+11.73% rTS!!) 24.0 PER, .232 WS/48 in 39.7 mpg
Hawkins then got even better in the playoffs; McAdoo took a small dip in the playoffs, McHale (injured) took a more substantial dip in the post-season (though at 17.9 PER, .120 WS/48, and +2.0 BPM, he’s still pretty good). So taken at face-value, statistically Hawkins looks the best, McAdoo probably 2nd, McHale third. However, obviously we can’t merely take them at face-value; strength of competition must be factored in (especially considering that PER and WS/48 are standardized relative to the the league average player).
Without a doubt (imo), Hawkins played in the weakest league of the three, where there was precious few in the way of actual elite star level players for him to compete with.
The NBA of ‘75 was better, but still a bit “depleted” of talent relative to some other eras. Guys like West, Robertson, Chamberlain, Reed, as well as guys like DeBusschere, Gus Johnson, Jerry Lucas have all vanished. And the ABA has robbed them of much of the top-tier replacement talent: near-peak Dr. J, peak Gilmore and George McGinnis, as well as prime Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, George Gervin, Maurice Lucas, etc are all still in the ABA at this point. In ‘75, guys like Jim Price, Steve Mix, Charlie Scott, and aging and fading versions of Dave Bing and Gail Goodrich were all-stars. In ‘87, otoh, McHale is distinguishing himself in a league that has peak or near-peak versions of Magic, Larry, Worthy, Dominique, as well as prime versions of Jordan, Olajuwon, Moses, Barkley, Isiah, Parish, English, as well as several (maybe dozens??) of guys at a level similar to prime Mo Cheeks, Tom Chambers, Fat Lever, Mark Aguirre, and Bill Laimbeer.
Comparing Player Attributes…. I’m going to start with Hawkins (my 3rd ballot) and McAdoo (my top HM).
Scoring Some may be inclined to wave Hawkins aside as a scorer due to the competition in the early ABA. But even against weaker competition, Hawkins’ volume and efficiency (shown above; and he was going for even larger volume at 65.1% TS in the playoffs, too) is nothing to sneeze at. Combined with that: 1) we see in his pre-injury numbers in ‘69 that he was averaging approximately 36-37 pts/100 poss at probably 59-60% TS (~+9% or so rTS).....pre-injury (and presumably near-peak) Rick Barry was averaging around 37 pts/100 poss at ~62% TS in the same league. 2) Post-injury/surgery Hawkins in ‘70 (an NBA that was marginally better than that of ‘75, imho) was averaging 24.8 pts/100 poss at +5.16% rTS. If I assume pre-injury Hawkins was better (and his drop-off in late ‘69 is dramatic enough to suggest he likely suffered some permanent deficits)..... …...there’s plenty of room to credit Hawkins as a formidable scorer. There’s sufficient video evidence to see that he was a very good close-to-mid range (like 10-18 ft) shooter, excellent transition finisher, capable of amazing close-range one-handed shots (in the same vein as Gervin or Dr. J), and a good FT-shooter.
Ultimately, though, I have to give at least a tiny edge to McAdoo. Pretty massive volume scoring on very very good efficiency in a stronger league than Hawkins. Looking at how many mid-range (or short-to-mid range, like 10-16 ft) jumpers he took---often contested and off the dribble---that he was still able to shoot >51% FG% is remarkable. And being able to shoot so effectively off the dribble (and from decent range) when you’re 6’9” is an impressive and scary skillset. 80+% FT-shooter that year, too. And given guys like Chris Bosh, Kevin Love, Jack Sikma, and apparently now DeMarcus Cousins all learned to extend their range out to the 3pt line, I’ve no reason to believe that McAdoo couldn’t also. As result, I think he’d fit well into this era of floor-spacing bigs, pick-n’-pops, etc.
Passing/Playmaking/Handles Even relative to positional expectations, this one obviously goes to Hawkins. Can delve into this further if someone disagrees; but the wealth of evidence (ast and TO rates, limited video of Hawkins, reputation, etc) all point to Hawkins. Granted he’s slipping out of his prime by the time turnovers were recorded, but McAdoo actually appears a touch turnover-prone (whereas Hawkins appeared the opposite, in the early ABA at least).
Defense I’m not exactly sure what to think of Hawkins’ defense. There’s so little video available to the public of his peak, no defensive stats at all (late career stl/blk numbers look OK, fwiw), and limited anecdotal info available. The ONLY subjective thing I’ve heard of his defense was a rating as “bad” from a poster here whose credibility I question. Otherwise, I’ve heard nothing (good or bad). Overall, I guess I’d grade his defense as average to maybe slightly below (but with a big “*” by it, due to lack of info).
This would be fairly consistent with McAdoo’s defensive reputation, too, as his is pretty mediocre (to sub-par) as well. Although in McAdoo’s defense, part of that is likely in relation to the fact that he was forced to play most of his career at a position he was significantly under-sized for. otoh, mediocre defense is more difficult to “hide” when you’re a big man; so perhaps it’s less “forgivable” for McAdoo???
Overall, I’m going to call defense roughly a wash. I certainly don’t think it’s any sort of big divider between them.
Rebounding I’m calling this roughly a wash, too. McAdoo averaged 14.5 reb/100 poss vs. 13.4 reb/100 poss for Hawkins (pre-injury Hawkins averaged nearly the same in ‘69, too, fwiw). With positional expectations in mind---given McAdoo was 6’9” and playing C, while Hawkins was 6’8” and playing primarily on the perimeter (SF)---I’d give the edge to Hawkins if all other things were equal. But again: weak early ABA. Brings it back to a wash for me.
Playoff Considerations fwiw, McAdoo dropped off mildly in the playoffs, whereas Hawkins actually elevated his level of play even further in the playoffs.
Overall, this comparison is basically a wash to me. I’ve let Hawkins nudge him out for my ballot, perhaps based on the elevated playoff play, but I reserve the right to switch to McAdoo. I’ve flip-flopped more than once on this comparison.
How does McHale compare in these aspects of the game? Here’s how I see it….
I think he’s [clearly] the best scorer of the three. Seriously: 31.9 pts/100 poss @ 65.5% TS (+11.73% rTS) in a what is [perhaps by far] the most competitive league of the three is ridiculous. Critics may mention how the presence of Bird and Parish takes pressure off of McHale. Fair enough, but they also steal primacy (volume) from him. Look how a near-peak Chris Bosh’s volume fell when he arrived in Miami next to two stars. That McHale was a dominant enough scorer to warrant the volume he had among that company is remarkable. Critics may also cite Larry Bird’s playmaking as responsible for a big chunk of McHale’s efficiency. This is a touch misleading, imo; watching games from that era, McHale appears to be getting A LOT of his points on simple low-post isolations: he posts up, they dump him the ball, and he destroys whoever is guarding him. Simple as that. I’d further cite McHale’s ‘89 numbers as evidence of his prowess. Bird missed basically this entire season, and McHale is 31 years old and decidedly past his peak at this point (was really never quite the same after the injury late in ‘87), too: he still averaged 29.9 pts/100 poss @ 60.8% TS (+7.11% rTS).
McHale’s clearly [imo] the best defender of the three, too. Guy who can guard outside his position (had to often guard SF so Bird could guard a big), contests well, fundamentally sound post defender, and the team’s leading rim-protector (2.7 blk/100 poss in ‘87); All-Def 1st Team, too.
As a passer/playmaker, I’d rate him behind Hawkins, but likely at least marginally ahead of McAdoo from all I’ve seen. Takes care of the ball very well.
Rebounding: one of the weaker aspects of his game, likely last of the three, though likely just a little behind the other two. Again, I’ll point out that he had to often guard perimeter players (SF’s), which pulls him away from the rim and reduces his likelihood of getting on the defensive glass. Still averaged 12.1 reb/100 poss that year.
Based on all of the above, I’d rate ‘87 McHale significantly above both Hawkins and McAdoo…...in the regular season. But then there are playoff considerations: McHale was injured, and though still a significantly above average player despite a broken foot, he does suffer the largest post-season drop-off of the three. That’s the only consideration that keeps this relatively close for me. I’m still inclined to give him the edge because he was flat-out a better player for 90% of the season, and his injury was a sort of fluky thing as opposed to chronic injury hitting a boiling point.
2nd ballot: Connie Hawkins '68 Touch of mystery surrounding early Hawkins, but here is how I see it.....
Physically, he’s listed as 6’8” (and from all photographic evidence I’ve seen, I think he’s a legit 6’8”.....not like a “generously 6’8” in his shoes” type of situation), and 210 lbs on bbref. He’s got a wirey strong build, a pretty long reach, and massive hands (which enable all the one-handed palm pass fakes, crazy sweeping scoop shots, etc):
And he’s got some grace, speed, and ups, as you can get a little sense of from in the videos below, as well as seeing some of the one-handed palming plays (and bear in mind when watching that almost all of that footage is him PAST his physical prime). Overall physically, he’s kinda reminiscent of Scottie Pippen, but with bigger hands.
He’s got some solid mid-range touch (again, see in videos below), and some good handles and passing for a biggish guy (was the original “point forward”, if I’m not mistaken).
Now before we get into what he did in his peak season (‘68), let’s first take a quick look at what he was still capable of in his late 20’s AFTER knee surgery (which I’m sure you’re all aware of how well players were typically able to come back after knee surgery in that day and age). Coming into the NBA as a 28-year-old rookie, one year after knee surgery, he went for a 10th-in-the-league 19.74 PER and .147 WS/48 in 40.9 mpg. His per 100 poss estimates: 24.8 pts, 10.5 reb, 4.85 ast @ +5.16% rTS. And fwiw, he was awarded All-NBA 1st Team honors alongside Billy Cunningham, and ahead of forwards Lou Hudson and Gus Johnson. Did nearly as well (on larger minutes) in the playoffs that year: somewhat inflated by pace, but he avg 25.4 ppg/13.9 rpg/5.9 apg in the ‘70 playoffs.
Again: this is what he was capable of past his physical prime. Statistically, he’s not far behind [an arguably peak] Walt Frazier, who we voted in at #32.
Anyway, I wanted to throw a little spotlight on what he was capable of in the NBA post-surgery because I want everyone cognizant of the very real possibility (if not the likelihood) that he was even better before his knee injury. If you don’t think the knee injury affected him, consider his scoring averages (it’s all that’s available on game log data of the time) in ‘69 before the injury: he was averaging 33.4 ppg pre-injury. In the 11 rs games AFTER coming back from injury: 19.9 ppg, followed by a significantly sub-standard (poor, actually) playoffs. I realize I cannot precisely extrapolate what he was in ‘70 by citing his late-season (post-injury) stats from ‘69; but anyway take it for what it’s worth.
In the ‘69 ABA season (marginally stronger than the ‘68 ABA, imo) there was also a presumably near-peak Rick Barry around for 35 games to compare to….. ‘69 Barry per 100 poss estimates: 36.0 pts, 9.95 reb, 4.1 ast @ +11.35% rTS PER 29.6, .301 WS/48 in 38.9 mpg
**‘69 Hawkins per 100 poss estimates: 33.6 pts, 12.6 reb, 4.35 ast @ +8.25% rTS. PER 29.7, .293 WS/48 in 39.4 mpg. **this includes the aforementioned 11 games (11 of 47 total) AFTER coming back from the injury, btw. Given the scoring drop I already outlined, it’s safe to assume his overall pre-injury numbers were a little better than what a near-peak Barry was doing in the same league. Frankly, he was probably a better player (before the injury) in '69 than he was in '68.
Now on to his ‘68 peak season (perhaps only peak by default, because he was actually healthy from start to finish)…... Yes, the ABA of the late 60’s was not overly loaded with talent, as Clyde Frazier pointed out. It wasn’t total bush-league, either. Mel Daniels was there, and there were several other legitimately “good” (if not truly “All-Star level”) players around: Donnie Freeman, Louie Dampier, Larry Jones, Roger Brown, Doug Moe, John Beasley, etc. And at any rate, Hawkins didn’t just distinguish himself in this crowd…….he utterly crushed them. He led the league handily in PER and WS/48, for instance, despite playing a league-leading 44.9 mpg. He had nearly twice as many OWS as the 2nd-place guy. He dominated that league to a degree that we haven’t often seen. Seriously: do a search for seasons with >28 PER (his was 28.8), >.270 WS/48 (his was .273), and >40 mpg (his was a whopping 44.9) in NBA and ABA history…...you come up with just 10 NBA seasons (3 of Kareem, 3 of Wilt, 2 of Jordan, 1 of Robinson, 1 of Shaq), and only 1 in ABA history (Connie Hawkins). If we change the requirement to 42 mpg, five of those NBA seasons disappear, btw.
Per 100 possession estimates for ‘68: 26.6 pts, 13.4 reb, 4.55 ast, just 2.8 tov @ +11.45% rTS. His 59.7% TS would be elite even by today’s standards.
And then he got even better in the playoffs.PER 30.0 and .310 WS/48 in 44.0 mpg in the playoffs, as he led the Pipers to the title. His numbers in the playoffs are gross even with considerations of pace: 29.9 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 4.6 apg, 3.4 topg @ 65.1% TS (which is like +16.8 rTS!!).
So yeah: regardless of the strength of the ABA in ‘68, I look at all of the above and absolutely I believe he’s a valid candidate at this stage.
3rd ballot: Willis Reed '69 Reed's numbers don't exactly jump off the page at you (relative to most of the guys we're discussing). But a couple things I note about that: 1) Nobody's numbers really do jump out at you around that time. There seemed to be a lot more parity in the league in those circa-1970 years (at least until Kareem arrived; but then he was a top 5 peak); maybe because there fair bit of talent packed into relatively few teams. Popularity, integration and expansion, development of basketball had been exploding for the last 10-15 years, and the league was not yet feeling the drain provided by the fledgling ABA. At any rate, Reed's PER of 21.4 was actually 4th in the league that year, only 0.9 behind 1st (Jerry West). Reed's .227 WS/48 was actually #1 in the league that year. 2) PER in particular is heavily influenced by volume. Big individual volume, in general, wasn't really happening on those circa-1970 Knicks teams. Those were "teams" in the true sense of the word: moving the ball and getting everyone involved was what they were about (they led the league in assists while 6 players averaged in double-figures---and that's counting Bellamy/DeBusschere as ONE person, since they were traded for each other; 5 players were averaging 15+ ppg.....and this despite playing the slowest pace in the league and being just 11th of 14 in ppg). When I watch tape of Reed, he appears so fluid on offense, such an amazingly sweet touch from the mid-range (translates great to modern era) and close-mid range......he's got sort of strange proportions where his legs just seem to keep coming up damn near to his chest, such that I think he's got a longer stride than his 6'9" stature would presumably allow (helped him run and finish in transition)......all around he just appears so smooth and in control. I frankly don't doubt that he COULD have averaged 25+ ppg had it been asked of him. Those Knicks teams simply didn't need him to. And Willis was enough of a team leader that he certainly wasn't one to take away from his team or do things detrimental to their success for personal reasons. His rs per 100 poss estimates: 23.8 pts, 16.4 reb, 2.6 @ +7.11% rTS (his 56.2% TS would be good even by modern standards).
Big bull of a body, high BBIQ made him a very hard-nosed low-post defender, too.
And during the playoffs (facing a rookie MVP Wes Unseld in the first round, then Bill Russell---in his final season---in the EDF) he got even better: going for 25.7 ppg, 14.1 rpg @ 56.2% TS; PER 22.0 and .242 WS/48 in a big 42.9 mpg......again, while facing two solid defenders in a row. I'd actually rate his peak on par with teammate Walt Frazier's, if not marginally higher.
Here's some video (actually from early in '70 season): [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEgynFUSJjg[/youtube] I'll give you the Reed highlights.... 1:56: Watch him chase down and make the block (they call goal-tending, but I watched it a handful of times and pretty sure the call was incorrect). 2:20: Characteristic sweet close-range touch despite obviously taking a little shove on the hip. 2:24: Very next play, nothing too special, just wanted to point out his quickness, defensive attentiveness, and contesting a shot (not his man). 2:38: Another defensive possession. Watch him covering space, pointing, communicating. He's dialed in defensively. 3:10: Active on the perimeter defense (really, I think his defense translates very well, too), then watch him hustle up-court (even though he doesn't get the ball). 3:43: Nice contest on the shot. 4:20: Nice up and under move. 4:30: Disrupts outlet pass. 4:47: Nice shot-fake, and then the sweet touch. 4:55: Look at him body the offensive player off the block, and then throw a hip into him when he's coming across the lane. These are mostly defensive "highlights" so far (pretty small things actually), but I'm just pointing out how he's clearly very very checked in defensively. 6:22: Sweet move and jump-hook. .....anyway, I'll stop there and just let you watch. Solid pick at this stage, imo.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
Fine with 69, too as it's his statistical peak in the playoffs, but prefer to focus on 70 here. He was certainly deserving of winning reg season MVP that season, leading the knicks to a 60-22 record and the #1 ranked SRS in the league. He put together season averages of 21.7 PPG, 13.9 RPG, 2 APG, 50.7% FG, 75.6% FT, 55.2% TS (+4.1% above league avg) and .227 WS/48 in 81 GP.
On their way to the championship in 1970, willis helped the knicks knock off 2 of the most dominant centers of all time in wilt and kareem. Undersized for a center at 6’9”, his brute strength and good defensive instincts were still able to deter them. He also had a great outside shot for a big man, which was very effective against wilt in his later years.
I don’t doubt that reed was a player whose impact went beyond the box score, and I’d say that’s what voters were recognizing when selecting him as finals MVP that year as well. This was best exemplified in the famous moment when reed came through the tunnel in game 7 of the 70 finals:
As the lakers were warming up, they froze as they saw willis coming onto the court (he had previously missed game 6 with a torn muscle in his thigh, and no one expected him to play). He hit his first 2 jumpers, and the rest was history. Dramatic narrative? Of course, but Clyde himself said they wouldn’t have had the confidence to go out there and perform like they did without their captain leading the way. When you have the talent to back it up as willis did, that makes a difference.
He exceeded his already stellar regular season production in the playoffs across the board, and this was while playing through injuries as I’ll detail below. It was one of the most impressive post season performances in the modern era.
At his peak, king was one of the most dynamic scorers the league had seen. He was more methodical than flashy, but he knew what he was good at and kept going to it. His turnaround jumper was so lethal that he didn't even have to look at the hoop when releasing the shot. It was all in 1 quick motion where the defender really had no chance to block it. He was also very bull-like in the open court. Not a high leaper, but extremely powerful with long strides getting to the rim.
He was probably best known for his 1st round game 5 clincher against the pistons in 84:
In a critical and decisive Game 5, Bernard King was his usual unstoppable self putting up 40 points as the Knicks held a double-digit lead with under two minutes remaining in the fourth quarter. Then Thomas decided to take things into his own hands by putting on a performance of epic proportions, tallying 16 points within the game’s final 94 seconds, to force overtime.
King and Thomas exchanged offensive blows like a heavyweight title fight, with King getting the final blow by jamming an offensive put-back in the games final moments, giving him a game high 46 points and the Knicks a 3-2 series win. King showed a national audience that he would become one of the game’s most prolific scoring machines before injuries robbed him of his explosiveness. Game 5 was also arguably the moment that put a young “Zeke” on par with the NBA’s elite.
The Knicks would go on to lose to the eventual NBA champion celtics in 7 games, as he played through injuries and still averaged 29.1 PPG on 59.7% TS in the series. The guy was just relentless. The celtics also ranked 1st in SRS and 3rd in defense that season.
"The key was his preparation," said former Knicks coach and ESPN analyst Hubie Brown.
Part of that preparation included practicing thousands of shots from what King called his "sweet spots." In the half court, he identified three points along the baseline out to the sideline, then extended an imaginary line from a halfway point up the lane to the sideline with three more, then three more extended from the foul line to the sideline. He did the same on the other side of the lane.
Within the lane he identified four spots from the rim to the top of the key. These 22 spots, all within 18 feet of the basket, created a matrix of areas from which he felt supremely confident he could score. If a team tried to deny him the ball on offense, he would move from one sweet spot to another.
"He had the ability to see what all five positions were doing. That's how he could handle double- and triple-teams, because he knew where everyone would be," Brown said. "He knew how to create space for the high-percentage shot or find the guy who was open."
Blazers ranked 2nd in SRS that season, and took one of the best teams in NBA history (bulls) to 6 games in the finals. He didn’t shoot great, but he had a solid overall series. I think pippen and penny are right there with him, too, but I just like his overall package a bit better than them. The combo of athleticism, skill set and bball IQ drexler possessed was hard to match, and that was on full display in 92.
Ballot 1 - 1975 Bob McAdoo Ballot 2 - 1994 Scottie Pippen Ballot 3 - 2014 Kevin Love
McAdoo and Love's case is similar. They put up dominant offensive stats with the added bonus of spacing the floor and rebounding.
With Pippen, he is dominant defensive player while also putting up good offensive stats. To make a comparison how much less valuable is Pippen defensively or offensively than say Alonzo Mourning and Dwight?
My nominations will be: 1. 96 Penny Hardaway 2. 99 Jason Kidd 3. 85 Isiah Thomas
I've already explained all 3 in previous threads but my main argument for each comes out to be: Penny - offensively he's more capable of leading a great team than probably anyone left and defensively he's above average.
Kidd - One of the highest single season on/off scores ever. It is also the best offensive team he's been on. Now 03 has the advantage of a superior postseason but I don't think he was a better player then just that he was in a weaker conference.
Isiah - Pre Bad Boys he actually earned his reputation. He averaged 21.5/4.5/13.9 (or 18.9/4.2/12.4 pace adjusted to last year's league average) on 52.9 TS% but a moderately high 115 ORTG. In the playoffs he really performed (and he's someone who historically outperformed his regular seasons regularly) winning the first series easily and fought Boston to a close 6 games (Boston blew them out game 1 but barely won in 2, 5, and 6) averaging 26/6/11 on 55 TS with a 121 ORTG. He put up 26/6/16 in a game 3 win, 21/4/10 in a game 4 win, and 37/12/9 in the final game. Offensively he led Detroit to the 9th best offense with a pretty bad (unless you like a ton of inefficient scorers) supporting cast.
Question for the Hawk and King voters: why them over Gervin?
I had to take care of a lot of stuff and I had a big exam the other day that I wanted to really prepare for. Things have gone well though and now I have some catching up to do in the Basketball World.
mischievous wrote:I think Macadoo should've been in already. His combo of high volume efficient scoring, with rebounding is something that very few could accomplish.
fwiw, I agree. There is a way you could help ensure he gets voted in as soon as possible......
Spoiler:
It's one of the two....
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
Bob McAdoo - 6 Willis Reed - 4 Penny Hardaway - 3 Bernard King - 2 Connie Hawkins - 2 Scottie Pippen - 2 Jason Kidd - 2 Clyde Drexler - 1 Kevin Love - 1 Isiah Thomas - 1
fwiw Clyde, I think this is the last thread. I know it's an odd number to stop on, but it's not worth the time with such spotty participation.
Dr Spaceman wrote:.
Mutnt wrote:.
RSCD_3 wrote:.
Quotatious wrote:.
Dr Positivity wrote:.
drza wrote:.
eminence wrote:.
yoyoboy wrote:.
RebelWithoutACause wrote:.
LA Bird wrote:.
MyUniBroDavis wrote:.
Gregoire wrote:.
PaulieWal wrote:.
The-Power wrote:.
SKF_85 wrote:.
Narigo wrote:.
Joao Saraiva wrote:.
PCProductions wrote:.
Moonbeam wrote:.
theonlyclutch wrote:.
BallerHogger wrote:.
michievous wrote:.
JordansBulls wrote:.
thizznation wrote:.
SideshowBob wrote:.
fpliii wrote:.
Owly wrote:.
70sFan wrote:.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
trex_8063 wrote:fwiw Clyde, I think this is the last thread. I know it's an odd number to stop on, but it's not worth the time with such spotty participation.
My mild OCD likes round numbers... so ending at 40 would be nice, but yeah i think we're hitting a breaking point here Up to you.
Already explained why I have Reed and Hawkins at 1 and 2. McAdoo is like Hawkins - high scoring, dynamic offensive bigman with solid rebounding but questionable defense. McAdoo was IMO relatively worse in the playoffs in those particular seasons (Big Mac was still great in the playoffs, over 37 ppg against prime Unseld and Hayes, but Hawkins was really something else, even if he did it in a weaker league).
One more video plug for Willis Reed (even though he's only my 3rd ballot): [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xc4uVxGvD0[/youtube]
Things I'm again struck with: *his consistent (and effective) effort on defense, even here in an All-Star game. **The smooth, assured manner with which he executes every move/shot/play on offense. ***He looks like a really solid/sound screen-setter, too.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
FYI, since this may be it, just flipped king and reed in my ballots in hopes of getting him in: viewtopic.php?p=45042123#p45042123
[First time i've done this in the project]
Thanks for the heads up; correction is made in that last tally of points.
So thru post #14:
Bob McAdoo - 7 Willis Reed - 7 Penny Hardaway - 6 Connie Hawkins - 4 Bernard King - 2 Scottie Pippen - 2 Jason Kidd - 2 Grant Hill - 2 Clyde Drexler - 1 Kevin Love - 1 Isiah Thomas - 1 Dominique Wilkins - 1
We might be heading for a run-off.....
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
Willis Reed - 10 Bob McAdoo -7 Penny Hardaway - 6 Connie Hawkins - 4 Clyde Drexler - 3 Grant Hill - 2 Bernard King - 2 Scottie Pippen - 2 Jason Kidd - 2 Rick Barry - 1 Kevin Love - 1 Isiah Thomas - 1 Dominique Wilkins - 1
Calling it for Reed. Have had to requests to take it to the nice round number of 40, so will have the 40th AND FINAL thread up shortly.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
Up to you.
