How good was Jason Kidd's Peak?

The-Power · Post #2 » by **The-Power** » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:57 am

Among PGs, I assume?

mdonnelly1989 · Post #3 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:14 pm

The-Power wrote:Among PGs, I assume?

Oh yes, lol!

Fencer reregistered · Post #4 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:37 am

Behind Magic.

Behind Oscar.

Behind West; I insist that West was a PG, as he was a guard who was the leading assist getter on his team almost every season.

Behind Nash, since we're talking peaks. Kidd's defense was far superior; Nash's shooting was far superior; I think the latter is more important.

I'm not familiar enough with Frazier to comment.

In general, I'd say Kidd was true greatness on the break. Other than Magic, who I think of as the GOAT, I don't know who equaled him. In particular, while I don't think his rebound stats are all that important, the fact that his bigs boxed out for him and let him take the rebounds wound up leading to very effective fast breaks.

In the half court his passing didn't look any better than that of some guys who could also shoot.

His defense was solid.

therealbig3 · Post #5 » by **therealbig3** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:47 am

Honestly? There a lot of PG peaks I would take over Kidd. Curry, Nash, Westbrook, and Paul without question, and those are just recent ones. You've got Magic, Oscar, West (if you consider him a PG), Stockton, KJ, Isiah, Frazier, and Tiny historically. There are more, I'm sure.

Kidd's argument is due to his ridiculous longevity (he was a high impact player from the moment he stepped on the court until the day he retired), but in terms of peak, there have been many PGs that outperformed him.

Jim Naismith · Post #6 » by **Jim Naismith** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:32 am

mdonnelly1989 wrote:

therealbig3 wrote:

Fencer reregistered wrote:Behind West; I insist that West was a PG, as he was a guard who was the leading assist getter on his team almost every season.

Behind Kobe; I insist that Kobe was a PG, as he was a guard who was the leading assist getter on his team almost every season.

Post #7 » by **penbeast0** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:46 am

Kidd was more than solid defensively, he was among the best. Still, don't see him having the impact of Magic, West, Oscar, Frazier, or Stockton . . . peak only, have to look at guys like Curry, Paul, Nash, KJ, Penny, Archibald, even Cousy (relative to 50s, his weak performances in the 60s may obscure how good he was pre-Russell). Still, there was a point between his great defense and athleticism but broken shot years early on and his 3 point specialist but slowed defensively and in the open court years at the end of his career where he may have put it all together, maybe 2003, where he may be top 10 peak but not sure he's quite there.

Especially for those who dismiss PG defense of which I'm not one, there needs to be a "Below top 10" option.

mikejames23 · Post #8 » by **mikejames23** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:21 am

Kidd was more of a guy that did it really well for a long time rather than having a stunning God-mode year. The thing with him is I don't feel everyone noticed his defense. His defensive value is GREAT, and I know +/- devalues PG defense, but I would predict he's a clear cut anomaly to this. His 6'4" size, instincts, and overalll court IQ make him an all time great defender IMO. In fact, he might be THE best defender of the modern era @ PG, up there with Gary Payton. He also had great versatility on that end and was able to switch multiple positions even late in career, like with LeBron in 2011.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/top-defensive-rapm

You'd see he's got several years where he's clearly on par with good defensive big men. On offense, he was your conventional floor general for a very long time. The thing with his peak is he never had 3 point range in his prime, and only developed a reliable 3 point shot later to still remain useful on the offensive end. Had he developed that much earlier he'd have at least been an average efficiency scorer IMO. It kept him from being truly great. You gotta be a threat as a shooter if you're as poor around the rim as Jason Kidd is.

Love the Triple Double, but at the end of the day it does not matter as much as the box score might suggest.

Fencer reregistered · Post #9 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:08 am

Jim Naismith wrote:
mdonnelly1989 wrote:

therealbig3 wrote:

Fencer reregistered wrote:Behind West; I insist that West was a PG, as he was a guard who was the leading assist getter on his team almost every season.

Behind Kobe; I insist that Kobe was a PG, as he was a guard who was the leading assist getter on his team almost every season.

Funny.

Not actually true. There are at least four different guys who had seasons with more assists than Kobe (Van Exel, Fisher, Payton and Odom).

sixerswillrule · Post #10 » by **sixerswillrule** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:11 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:
mdonnelly1989 wrote:

therealbig3 wrote:

Fencer reregistered wrote:Behind West; I insist that West was a PG, as he was a guard who was the leading assist getter on his team almost every season.

Behind Kobe; I insist that Kobe was a PG, as he was a guard who was the leading assist getter on his team almost every season.

Funny.

Not actually true. There are at least four different guys who had seasons with more assists than Kobe (Van Exel, Fisher, Payton and Odom).

He didn't start in 97 or 98 and led his team in assists 12 out of 15 seasons from 99 to 13. So it's close to true.

HeartBreakKid · Post #11 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:24 pm

I had him at around 9 or 10 (somewhat interchangable with Gary Payton).

But then I forgot to take into account Russell Westbrook, so even though I voted for #9 he is probably #10 or #11.

1) Curry (so far)
2) Magic
3) Big O
4) West
5) Nash

6) CP3
7) Frazier
8) Westbrook
9) Stockton
10) Kidd

11) Payton