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Posted this on the Players Comparison board by mistake.

I'm trying to get a better sense of who the better point guards are as well as their values..We need to have a more objective analysis on the point guards of our respective teams and I figured this will be a great place to start. I'll be evaluating the point guards on five different categories:

Offense: Regular Stats, Advanced Stats, Intangibles
Defense: Regular Stats, Advanced Stats, Intangibles
Age: Consider if this player still has potential to grow, is he in his prime years? Past his prime?
Contract: Is this player signed long-term to a contract that's worth it or is he going to be a free agent soon that has a high chance of leaving your team? If you don't think a player would leave their current team give them a 5
Health: Has this player been relatively injury-free or is he prone to miss a good amount of games?
Fit: Is it relatively easy to find a role where you can maximize this player's strengths to be conductive to winning?

You can assess the player on a scale from 1-5 for every category, 1 being awful and 5 being great. Please also give some small detail for your reasoning on each player. Also no players on Rookie Contracts unless they've already signed an extension

The format should be:
#. Player Name: Offense/Defense/Age/Contract/Health/Fit = Total Score

The Untradeables:
1. Stephen Curry: 6/4/3/5/5/5 = 28..... Leads league in PER, in prime years, great value, not leaving GSW
2. Russell Westbrook: 6/4/3/5/5/5 = 28..... top 5 player, in prime years, not leaving OKC, triple double machine
3. John Wall: 4/5/4/5/5/4 = 27.... great 2 way player, that makes his teammates better signed long-term to great value.
4. Damian Lillard: 5/3/5/5/5/4 = 27.... 5th in PER for PGS, carrying the Blazers into the 5th seed.
5. Chris Paul: 5/5/3/4/4/5 = 26....Still a top 3 PG, reaching end of prime, gets any team to the POs, only 2 years left on contract.
*The Elite Point guards. Curry and Westbrook deserve higher than 5 on performance, they get a 6 for being outliers. In terms of on-court value they're all at least worth the #1 pick.

Worth a Ton: typically a pick between (2-5)

6. Kyle Lowry: 4/5/3/4/4/5 = 25... Above average at every facet of the game, in prime, only 2 years left on contract
7. Kemba Walker 4/3/4/5/4/4 = 24... 7th in PER/PGs, good at about everything, young and signed to a great contract.
8. Kyrie Irving: 4/2/4/5/4/4 = 23.... Can be a tremendous scorer, young and signed-long term, strengths may not be optimized.
9. Isaiah Thomas: 4/3/3/5/5/3 = 23... See Kemba Walker. You need a strong defensive unit to mask his weaknesses
10. Ricky Rubio: 3/5/4/5/4/2 = 23...Still expecting more from the guy, young, injury-free signed to a great long-term contract.
*All-stars or have all-star potential. These guys could all probably net you a top 5 draft pick, but their actual on-court value is worth more to already established teams. You would have to offer alot to acquire them via trade.

Good Value: Should get you a pick in the mid to late-lotto range (6-14)

11. Mike Conley 3/5/4/2/4/4 = 22... Prototype PG, also one of the best defenders at the position
12. Reggie Jackson: 4/3/4/3/5/4 = 21...Young, no injury history, a bit overpayed, solid at about everything
13. Eric Bledsoe: 4/3/4/4/2/4 = 21...Does a bit of everything pretty well, contract is solid, significant injury history
14. Jeff Teague: 4/3/4/1/5/4 = 21... Due for a huge contract
15. Jrue Holiday: 4/4/4/2/2/4 = 20...Does a bit of everything pretty well, still young, but expecting a huge contract, injury-ridden
*Above average PGs. Guys that excel on one side of the floor and is at least decent on the other end.

Okay value: Worth a pick in the mid-to late draft (15-25)

16. Goran Dragic: 4/3/3/2/4/3 = 19...One of the worst contracts, still has some time to put it together, has his moments.
17. George Hill 3/3/3/2/4/4 = 19. Decent to good at just about everything, would say he's the closest to average here.
18. Patrick Beverly 2/4/3/4/3/3 = 19... Great defender signed to a good contract but you sacrifice alot if he's your starting PG.
19. Darren Collison 4/2/3/2/4/4 = 19. A backup PG that can do wonders for your bench. Solid playmaker and shooter.
*Solid starters range. They're at least decent on both ends of the floor or solid one one-end and could do essential guard duties.

Meh Value: Pick in the late draft at best (26+)
20. Brandon Knight: 3/3/4/1/3/3 = 17.. He's young, has potential but not that good at anything but being a volume scorer
21. Rajon Rondo: 4/3/3/1/4/2 = 17...Fills up the stat sheet, expected to get a contract not worth his actual value, not a great fit
22. Tony Parker 3/2/2/2/4/3 = 16.. Should be a backup. Can score sometimes, contract is a bit long for a guy that should retire.
23. Brandon Jennings 3/2/4/1/3/3 = 16 Can score, gonna get a fat contract, high-risk type PG thats better off as a backup
24. Derrick Rose: 4/2/3/1/2/3 = 15 He would be solid as a backup PG but he's gonna overpaid to play only 60% of games at best
25. Deron Williams 3/2/2/1/3/3 = 14 Guy needs to be a backup
* These guys are all pretty much better off as your backup PGs where they have a matchup advantage over opposing benches.


Edited: Added more PGs.
Split Performance into two categories, now offense and defense.
Also Thanks to nevetsov for standardizing the age rankings

nevetsov wrote:5=18-22
4=23-26
3=27-30
2=31-33
1=34+

I had a few comments based on your ratings:

John Wall: 5 for performance seems too high based on a .510 TS% and 0.098 WS/48
Chris Paul: 4 for age is too high for a guy the wrong side of 30
Kemba Walker: Should get a 5 for performance
Kyle Lowry: Again 4 is too high for age
Isaiah Thomas: Seems like he should have a 5 for performance
Mike Conley: Should be 1 on his contract since he is expiring and is questionable to return
Ricky Rubio: A 3 is too low for performance (should be a 4), also a 2 on fit is way off (should be a 4), health should be 4
Eric Bledsoe: Health should be a 2

Jackson/dragic should be in the tier above.say what you want but jackson just led a det team back to the playoffs.

How is defense not a criteria???

I have MCW worth a top 5 pick.

Derrick Rose
4/4/2/2/4 = 16

Above avg defender & playmaker
Elite ball handler, mid-range, & penetration
27 years old
Still under contract next year
Played well in 2016 with 18ppg
No major injuries this season
**One of the few bright spots, this season, for disappointed Bulls fans. Not the reason for Chicago's poor play.

aramada wrote:How is defense not a criteria???

Also wondering why OP thinks Lillard is a good defender.

DerrickNoah wrote:Derrick Rose
4/4/2/2/4 = 16

27 years old
Still under contract next year
played well in 2016 with 18ppg
No major injuries this season
Above avg defender & playmaker
elite ball handler, mid-range, & penetration

27 years old

Under contract next year for $21,323,252, making him the 8th highest paid this season

Scored 18 points per game with a 48% TS. 7th worst TS% in the league of players with more than 20% USG. Carried a negative OBPM and DBPM throughout the entire season.

No major injuries this season, yet still missed 15 games this season. Played 166 out of 410 regular season games in the last 5 years.

Ranked 32nd in the league in AST% and 35th in Assists this year. The guys he went up against defensively this year shot 44.8% on the year, while he held them to 44.6% shooting, so yeah I guess that is above average. But as I said earlier he had negative DBPM this year, just like 7 of the 8 years he's been in the league.

I'll give you the ball-handling, mid-range and penetration. Although when he's able to penetrate he has one of the worst Fg% in the league at the rim

Darren Collison 4/4/4/4/4

Okay okay I get it if the performance is a bit to high but when given the opportunity he's been great for the Kings. I have him in my top 15 point guards. Of your list I'd rather have him then Rondo and knight easily, and for me Rubio and Bledsoe as well. I don't like Rubio on offense or Bledsoe injury concerns which really he should be rated a 1 for.

RipPizzaGuy wrote:Darren Collison 4/4/4/4/4

Okay okay I get it if the performance is a bit to high but when given the opportunity he's been great for the Kings. I have him in my top 15 point guards. Of your list I'd rather have him then Rondo and knight easily, and for me Rubio and Bledsoe as well. I don't like Rubio on offense or Bledsoe injury concerns which really he should be rated a 1 for.

pg is a stacked position. No way DC is top 15. He may not even be top 30.

pelifan wrote:

RipPizzaGuy wrote:Darren Collison 4/4/4/4/4

Okay okay I get it if the performance is a bit to high but when given the opportunity he's been great for the Kings. I have him in my top 15 point guards. Of your list I'd rather have him then Rondo and knight easily, and for me Rubio and Bledsoe as well. I don't like Rubio on offense or Bledsoe injury concerns which really he should be rated a 1 for.

pg is a stacked position. No way DC is top 15. He may not even be top 30.

I am talking about actual worth not value. So maybe I was off here. As far as actual rank on the court I have.

Tier 1
Curry
Westbrook
Paul
Lillard
Wall

Tier 2
Conley
Lowry
Walker
Irving
Thomas

Tier 3
Reggie Jackson
Teague
Dragic
Holiday
Collison

He has the 2nd highest true shooting percentage of any point guard in the league behind Curry and ranks pretty nicely in most advanced stats that say hes around the 15 or 16 best. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/VORPe

Again by my own estimation that puts him at 15 exactly. I personally would take him over Knight, Rose, Rondo, Rubio, Parker, Deron. I could see why you may not but I like the way he plays. Has an excellent midrange game, he is lightening quick, good passer. Hes averaging 14/5 with 49% shooting and 40% from 3's. He can start or come off the bench and is a great teamate. Not to mention he only makes 5 million next year and is still 28. He has been the Kings second best player this year which I know isn't saying much but we had our best season in years with a team who has given up the last month of the season.

Timmaytime wrote:

DerrickNoah wrote:Derrick Rose
4/4/2/2/4 = 16

27 years old
Still under contract next year
played well in 2016 with 18ppg
No major injuries this season
Above avg defender & playmaker
elite ball handler, mid-range, & penetration

27 years old

Under contract next year for $21,323,252, making him the 8th highest paid this season

Scored 18 points per game with a 48% TS. 7th worst TS% in the league of players with more than 20% USG. Carried a negative OBPM and DBPM throughout the entire season.

No major injuries this season, yet still missed 15 games this season. Played 166 out of 410 regular season games in the last 5 years.

Ranked 32nd in the league in AST% and 35th in Assists this year. The guys he went up against defensively this year shot 44.8% on the year, while he held them to 44.6% shooting, so yeah I guess that is above average. But as I said earlier he had negative DBPM this year, just like 7 of the 8 years he's been in the league.

I'll give you the ball-handling, mid-range and penetration. Although when he's able to penetrate he has one of the worst Fg% in the league at the rim

That double vision caused Rose to statistically be the worst shooter in the league in 2015. He shot 37% from the field in October and 35% in November. Plus, Derrick has never been a very stat friendly player, even in his MVP season. His play & shooting % has been much improved since Christmas break... I understand the haters and trolls still need to see more before complimenting Rose but sometimes you have to actually watch guys play, rather than just googling stats

Rose scoring stats
2016........PPG / FG%
January....17.6 / .471%
February...21.9 / .439%
March......18.4 / .497%

Rose is in no way any sort of positive asset. You'd have to pay to dump that deal.

Really good job, Kup. I could quibble with a few rankings, but by and large I pretty much agree with the list you came up with (although, truthfully, I prefer grouping guys into tiers rather than creating a ranked list).

All that said, two questions for anyone who feels like answering them, both of which basically fall under the umbrella question, 'What constitutes a PG in today's NBA?"

1) Is Eric Bledsoe really a PG? He's played next to another PG (Dragic / Knight) for the past two years, so one could argue he's mostly played SG.

2) I agree with and appreciate your omission of any player still on a rookie contract. BUT, just for stuff and giggles ... where would Giannis rank on a PG list should MIL continue to play him as such all next year (and he continue to produce as he has since they put the ball primarily in his hands)?

RipPizzaGuy wrote:

pelifan wrote:

RipPizzaGuy wrote:Darren Collison 4/4/4/4/4

Okay okay I get it if the performance is a bit to high but when given the opportunity he's been great for the Kings. I have him in my top 15 point guards. Of your list I'd rather have him then Rondo and knight easily, and for me Rubio and Bledsoe as well. I don't like Rubio on offense or Bledsoe injury concerns which really he should be rated a 1 for.

pg is a stacked position. No way DC is top 15. He may not even be top 30.

I am talking about actual worth not value. So maybe I was off here. As far as actual rank on the court I have.

Tier 1
Curry
Westbrook
Paul
Lillard
Wall

Tier 2
Conley
Lowry
Walker
Irving
Thomas

Tier 3
Reggie Jackson
Teague
Dragic
Holiday
Collison

He has the 2nd highest true shooting percentage of any point guard in the league behind Curry and ranks pretty nicely in most advanced stats that say hes around the 15 or 16 best. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/VORPe

Again by my own estimation that puts him at 15 exactly. I personally would take him over Knight, Rose, Rondo, Rubio, Parker, Deron. I could see why you may not but I like the way he plays. Has an excellent midrange game, he is lightening quick, good passer. Hes averaging 14/5 with 49% shooting and 40% from 3's. He can start or come off the bench and is a great teamate. Not to mention he only makes 5 million next year and is still 28. He has been the Kings second best player this year which I know isn't saying much but we had our best season in years with a team who has given up the last month of the season.

Well you certainly made a good argument. He's definitely a top 30 pg in ability (not trade value), probably around 20, 25... I always liked DC but his best season in the league was his rookie season. He leaves a lot to be desired defensively and hasn't shown anything near the level passing needed to run a team effectively since that season.

DerrickNoah wrote:

Timmaytime wrote:

DerrickNoah wrote:Derrick Rose
4/4/2/2/4 = 16

27 years old
Still under contract next year
played well in 2016 with 18ppg
No major injuries this season
Above avg defender & playmaker
elite ball handler, mid-range, & penetration

27 years old

Under contract next year for $21,323,252, making him the 8th highest paid this season

Scored 18 points per game with a 48% TS. 7th worst TS% in the league of players with more than 20% USG. Carried a negative OBPM and DBPM throughout the entire season.

No major injuries this season, yet still missed 15 games this season. Played 166 out of 410 regular season games in the last 5 years.

Ranked 32nd in the league in AST% and 35th in Assists this year. The guys he went up against defensively this year shot 44.8% on the year, while he held them to 44.6% shooting, so yeah I guess that is above average. But as I said earlier he had negative DBPM this year, just like 7 of the 8 years he's been in the league.

I'll give you the ball-handling, mid-range and penetration. Although when he's able to penetrate he has one of the worst Fg% in the league at the rim

That double vision caused Rose to statistically be the worst shooter in the league in 2015. He shot 37% from the field in October and 35% in November. Plus, Derrick has never been a very stat friendly player, even in his MVP season. His play & shooting % has been much improved since Christmas break... I understand the haters and trolls still need to see more before complimenting Rose but sometimes you have to actually watch guys play, rather than just googling stats

Rose scoring stats
2016........PPG / FG%
January....17.6 / .471%
February...21.9 / .439%
March......18.4 / .497%

He actually shot 46% in march

DocRI wrote:Really good job, Kup. I could quibble with a few rankings, but by and large I pretty much agree with the list you came up with (although, truthfully, I prefer grouping guys into tiers rather than creating a ranked list).

All that said, two questions for anyone who feels like answering them, both of which basically fall under the umbrella question, 'What constitutes a PG in today's NBA?"

1) Is Eric Bledsoe really a PG? He's played next to another PG (Dragic / Knight) for the past two years, so one could argue he's mostly played SG.

2) I agree with and appreciate your omission of any player still on a rookie contract. BUT, just for stuff and giggles ... where would Giannis rank on a PG list should MIL continue to play him as such all next year (and he continue to produce as he has since they put the ball primarily in his hands)?

Giannis would definitely be in the top tier. He'd get a 24 maybe even 25. But that's kind of hacks cuz he'd get a perfect score on Age, Contract and Health. I'd give him a 5 for fit because he's so versatile. He can pretty much play the 1,2,3 and 4 on both ends which makes everything easier for the rest of the squad. The only questionable score would be performance and that could be a 4 or 5 depending on how confident you are in his ability to win you a game.

I think that a maximum of 5 points (and only integer values) is not enough to represent the differences sufficiently, especially in performances compared to peers. I do agree on the order of your list for the most part though.

Kupchak9 wrote:Posted this on the Players Comparison board by mistake.

I'm trying to get a better sense of who the better point guards are as well as their values..We need to have a more objective analysis on the point guards of our respective teams and I figured this will be a great place to start. I'll be evaluating the point guards on five different categories:

Performance: Does this player perform better statistically and is his overall impact at that role better than his peers?
Age: Consider if this player still has potential to grow, is he in his prime years? Past his prime?
Contract: Is this player signed long-term to a contract that's worth it or is he going to be a free agent soon that has a high chance of leaving your team? If you don't think a player would leave their current team give them a 5
Health: Has this player been relatively injury-free or is he prone to miss a good amount of games?
Fit: Is it relatively easy to find a role where you can maximize this player's strengths to be conductive to winning?

You can assess the player on a scale from 1-5 for every category, 1 being awful and 5 being great. Please also give some small detail for your reasoning on each player. Also no players on Rookie Contracts unless they've already signed an extension

The format should be:
#. Player Name: Performance/Age/Contract/Health/Fit = Total Score

The Untradeables:
1. Stephen Curry: 5/4/5/5/5 = 24..... Leads league in PER, in prime years, great value, not leaving GSW
2. Russell Westbrook: 5/4/5/5/5 = 24..... top 5 player, in prime years, not leaving OKC, triple double machine
3. John Wall: 5/5/5/5/4 = 24.... Turns 26, still room to grow, great 2 way player, signed long-term to great value.
4. Damian Lillard: 5/5/5/5/4 = 24.... See John Wall
*Curry and Westbrook deserve higher than 5 on performance but given the parameters I'll just keep it as it for simplicity.

Worth a Ton:
5. Chris Paul: 5/4/4/4/5 = 22....Still a top 3 PG, reaching end of prime, gets any team to the POs, only 2 years left on contract.
6. Kemba Walker 4/5/5/5/3 = 22... 7th in PER/PGs, fills up the stat sheet, streaky shooter, young and signed to a great contract.
7. Kyle Lowry: 5/4/4/4/5 = 22... Above average at every facet of the game, in prime, only 2 years left on contract
8. Kyrie Irving: 4/5/5/4/3 = 21.... Can be a tremendous scorer, young and signed-long term, strengths may not be optimized.
9. Isaiah Thomas: 4/4/5/5/3 = 21... See Kemba Walker. You need a strong defensive unit to mask his weaknesses
10. Mike Conley 4/4/5/4/4 = 21... See Kyle Lowry
*These guys could all probably net you a top 3 draft pick, but their actual on-court value is worth more to already established teams. You would have to offer alot to acquire them via trade.

Something to think about
11. Reggie Jackson: 4/5/3/5/3 = 20...Young, no injury history, a bit overpayed, shooting is meh but can score well
12. Ricky Rubio: 3/5/5/5/2 = 20...Still expecting more from the guy, young, injury-free signed to a great long-term contract.
13. Eric Bledsoe: 4/4/4/3/4 = 19...Does a bit of everything pretty well, contract is solid, injury history
14. Jeff Teague: 4/4/1/5/4 = 18... Due for a huge contract
15. Jrue Holiday: 4/5/2/2/4 = 17...Does a bit of everything pretty well, still young, but expecting a huge contract, injury-ridden
16. Goran Dragic: 3/4/2/4/3 = 16...One of the worst contracts, still has some time to put it together, has his moments.
17, Rajon Rondo: 4/4/1/4/2 = 15...Fills up the stat sheet, expected to get a contract not worth his actual value, not a great fit
18. Brandon Knight: 3/5/1/3/3 = 15.. He's young I guess.

This analysis is a crime against Math.

weekend_warrior wrote:I think that a maximum of 5 points (and only integer values) is not enough to represent the differences sufficiently, especially in performances compared to peers. I do agree on the order of your list for the most part though.

Exactly. For example, we have five players who are given the same performance score as Curry.