Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario?

Moderators: PaulieWal, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier, penbeast0, trex_8063

User avatar
Goudelock
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,291
And1: 20,878
Joined: Jan 27, 2015
Location: College of Charleston
 

Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#1 » by Goudelock » Wed May 10, 2017 1:13 am

Image

So I was bored yesterday* and my mind started to wander. I had recently watched the Nuggets V Blazers game from 1977, where a healthy Bill Walton matched up against a young David Thompson. That got me thinking about Walton's career. As the fulcrum of one of the most dazzling offenses in NBA history, Walton was brilliant during this run in 1977, and for about 60 games the next season before his foot died and he told the Blazers to go **** themselves. After this, he went to hell (AKA the Clippers) and he essentially missed 3 seasons with injuries. After finally being sorta healthy from 83-85 but toiling on an irrelevant team (and sapped of his athleticism), he was shipped to basketball heaven in Boston, where he had a glorious season as a 6th man. Then he got hurt the next year and retired shortly thereafter. And supposedly he tried to comeback in 1990, but that didn't go anywhere.

The point is, Walton had a very interesting career, but never got to reach his full potential because of all of those injuries. His Blazer teams could've been a dynasty if he hadn't gotten hurt as well. So let's hop in the TARDIS, makes sure that Walton has the durability of AC Green instead of Derrick Rose, and go through a probably unlikely yet sort of reasonable alternate career.

1974-76: Everything's the same, he has his injury problems. Misses the playoffs.

1977: Wins title, just like in reality.

1978: Walton's Blazers get to the finals and win the title again, this time over the Bullets. He puts up 20-15-5 with 3 blocks or so against Hayes and Unseld, and the Blazers cruise to a 4-1 series win. The Blazers have repeated, and Walton (with a MVP and two finals MVPs) gets some early "could this guy be the best center ever" chatter.

1979: More of the same against the Bullets. Walton has now been the main guy on a team that has threepeated, and kept Kareem from winning titles (let's say that the Lakers and Blazers have met up in the playoffs all three years). His statistical averages stay at 20-15-5 with a lot of blocks. He also wins a second MVP and a 3rd finals MVP. The GOAT talks get louder, and the big redhead is beloved by the nation as an unthreatening and funny pitchman for different products. His team is beloved for "playing the game the right way". All the press written about Walton is positive.

1980: Magic bursts onto the scene, and finally gives Walton's Blazers a threat to their dynasty. Assuming the Portland hasn't acquired a secondary star in this time, LA has too much firepower, and the Blazers finally go down. Of course, Walton is now entering his physical peak at age 27, he puts up slightly higher scoring numbers, and wins yet another regular season MVP (his 4th). And he averages an ungodly 30-20-5 against Kareem in an epic WCF that will be replayed on Hardwood Classics till the end of time. The finals stay the same.

1981: Walton puts up the same numbers that he has for the last few years, except his scoring goes up to 26 for some reason. His team is still one of the top teams in the NBA (btw, the Blazers have won between 55-65 games every year since this thing started) and Walton wins his fifth MVP over Erving, He then outplays Moses Malone in the WCF and the Blazers get to the finals again, where he wins his 4th ring over a young Larry Bird and the Celtics. This is one of the most hyped series of all time, as the two great white hopes of the NBA go head to head. Walton wins his 4th finals MVP.

1982-1985: Walton is starting to decline slightly each season, although he still puts up great numbers and leads his teams to great success. By this time, Magic and Kareem have become too dominant, and Walton is no longer good enough to drag his teams to victory. He puts up great fights, but the Blazers always fall short in the second round or the WCF to the Lakers. People start to wonder if Walton is ever getting too old to be the main focus of the team, and if Blazers need to move on and rebuild. In the summer of 1985, Walton is traded to Boston for the pick that becomes Len Bias.

1986: The same thing that happened IRL happens in this reality as well. The Celtics win the finals, with Walton being the kickass sixth man. Although in this scenario, Walton plays more minutes and has a bigger role on the team. He actually takes Parish's starting spot by the playoffs, and helps contain Sampson and Olajuwon**. Walton now has his fifth ring.

1987-1990: Walton is still declining. The Celtics aren't good enough to win in 87 against a great Lakers team, and can't win again against the vicious Pistons in 1988 either. However, the Celtics get past the Pistons in 1989, where they beat the hobbled Lakers. Walton is now firmly a role player, but he gets his sixth ring. The magic has run out by 1990 though, and the Celtics lose in the playoffs again. Walton is traded after the season back to the Blazers.

1991-92: He goes back to the Blazers, where he gets one last appearance in the finals, as the backup center. MJ and Pippen and Co. win, and the media spins the story as the passing of the torch from the old to the new generation. Walton retires after the season.

So in this reality, Walton has 9 All-Star and All-NBA nods (1977-1985), has a career averages of 20-10-4 with 2 blocks. He also ends up with 6 rings and 4 MVPs. Possibly most importantly, he is still a great player in the 80's, as the NBA explodes in popularity and is beloved by an entire generation of fans (and the media). Is Walton a serious candidate for GOAT in this alternate universe?

*Commencement ceremonies are boring AF.

**I understand that I can't possibly take into account all of the little and not so little things that would change because of Walton being healthy. Bowie never goes to Portland, nor does Drexler. A bunch of other things probably do and don't happen too. So don't think too hard about all of the details.
Devin Booker wrote:Bro.
juice4080
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,545
And1: 513
Joined: Jan 01, 2010

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#2 » by juice4080 » Wed May 10, 2017 1:18 am

i don't like hypothetical scenarios like this but i don't see a scenario where a healthy bill walton is not a top 10 player of all time..he was that good...a basketball savant just like bill russell who ironically is walton's idol
User avatar
Clyde Frazier
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,010
And1: 25,680
Joined: Sep 07, 2010

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#3 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed May 10, 2017 2:29 am

He got his due in our peaks project voted in at 13:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407905&p=44691488#p44691488
User avatar
wojoaderge
Veteran
Posts: 2,955
And1: 1,571
Joined: Jul 27, 2015

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#4 » by wojoaderge » Wed May 10, 2017 2:30 am

He goes to the Clippers in '79 regardless
"Coach, why don't you just relax? We're not good enough to beat the Lakers. We've had a great year, why don't you just relax and cool down?"
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 28,690
And1: 8,876
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#5 » by penbeast0 » Wed May 10, 2017 2:33 am

Spoiler:
PockyCandy wrote:Image

So I was bored yesterday* and my mind started to wander. I had recently watched the Nuggets V Blazers game from 1977, where a healthy Bill Walton matched up against a young David Thompson. That got me thinking about Walton's career. As the fulcrum of one of the most dazzling offenses in NBA history, Walton was brilliant during this run in 1977, and for about 60 games the next season before his foot died and he told the Blazers to go **** themselves. After this, he went to hell (AKA the Clippers) and he essentially missed 3 seasons with injuries. After finally being sorta healthy from 83-85 but toiling on an irrelevant team (and sapped of his athleticism), he was shipped to basketball heaven in Boston, where he had a glorious season as a 6th man. Then he got hurt the next year and retired shortly thereafter. And supposedly he tried to comeback in 1990, but that didn't go anywhere.

The point is, Walton had a very interesting career, but never got to reach his full potential because of all of those injuries. His Blazer teams could've been a dynasty if he hadn't gotten hurt as well. So let's hop in the TARDIS, makes sure that Walton has the durability of AC Green instead of Derrick Rose, and go through a probably unlikely yet sort of reasonable alternate career.

1974-76: Everything's the same, he has his injury problems. Misses the playoffs.

1977: Wins title, just like in reality.

1978: Walton's Blazers get to the finals and win the title again, this time over the Bullets. He puts up 20-15-5 with 3 blocks or so against Hayes and Unseld, and the Blazers cruise to a 4-1 series win. The Blazers have repeated, and Walton (with a MVP and two finals MVPs) gets some early "could this guy be the best center ever" chatter.

1979: More of the same against the Bullets. Walton has now been the main guy on a team that has threepeated, and kept Kareem from winning titles (let's say that the Lakers and Blazers have met up in the playoffs all three years). His statistical averages stay at 20-15-5 with a lot of blocks. He also wins a second MVP and a 3rd finals MVP. The GOAT talks get louder, and the big redhead is beloved by the nation as an unthreatening and funny pitchman for different products. His team is beloved for "playing the game the right way". All the press written about Walton is positive.

1980: Magic bursts onto the scene, and finally gives Walton's Blazers a threat to their dynasty. Assuming the Portland hasn't acquired a secondary star in this time, LA has too much firepower, and the Blazers finally go down. Of course, Walton is now entering his physical peak at age 27, he puts up slightly higher scoring numbers, and wins yet another regular season MVP (his 4th). And he averages an ungodly 30-20-5 against Kareem in an epic WCF that will be replayed on Hardwood Classics till the end of time. The finals stay the same.

1981: Walton puts up the same numbers that he has for the last few years, except his scoring goes up to 26 for some reason. His team is still one of the top teams in the NBA (btw, the Blazers have won between 55-65 games every year since this thing started) and Walton wins his fifth MVP over Erving, He then outplays Moses Malone in the WCF and the Blazers get to the finals again, where he wins his 4th ring over a young Larry Bird and the Celtics. This is one of the most hyped series of all time, as the two great white hopes of the NBA go head to head. Walton wins his 4th finals MVP.

1982-1985: Walton is starting to decline slightly each season, although he still puts up great numbers and leads his teams to great success. By this time, Magic and Kareem have become too dominant, and Walton is no longer good enough to drag his teams to victory. He puts up great fights, but the Blazers always fall short in the second round or the WCF to the Lakers. People start to wonder if Walton is ever getting too old to be the main focus of the team, and if Blazers need to move on and rebuild. In the summer of 1985, Walton is traded to Boston for the pick that becomes Len Bias.

1986: The same thing that happened IRL happens in this reality as well. The Celtics win the finals, with Walton being the kickass sixth man. Although in this scenario, Walton plays more minutes and has a bigger role on the team. He actually takes Parish's starting spot by the playoffs, and helps contain Sampson and Olajuwon**. Walton now has his fifth ring.

1987-1990: Walton is still declining. The Celtics aren't good enough to win in 87 against a great Lakers team, and can't win again against the vicious Pistons in 1988 either. However, the Celtics get past the Pistons in 1989, where they beat the hobbled Lakers. Walton is now firmly a role player, but he gets his sixth ring. The magic has run out by 1990 though, and the Celtics lose in the playoffs again. Walton is traded after the season back to the Blazers.

1991-92: He goes back to the Blazers, where he gets one last appearance in the finals, as the backup center. MJ and Pippen and Co. win, and the media spins the story as the passing of the torch from the old to the new generation. Walton retires after the season.

So in this reality, Walton has 9 All-Star and All-NBA nods (1977-1985), has a career averages of 20-10-4 with 2 blocks. He also ends up with 6 rings and 4 MVPs. Possibly most importantly, he is still a great player in the 80's, as the NBA explodes in popularity and is beloved by an entire generation of fans (and the media). Is Walton a serious candidate for GOAT in this alternate universe?

*Commencement ceremonies are boring AF.

**I understand that I can't possibly take into account all of the little and not so little things that would change because of Walton being healthy. Bowie never goes to Portland, nor does Drexler. A bunch of other things probably do and don't happen too. So don't think too hard about all of the details.



NO NO NO! YOU CANT TAKE AWAY THE ONLY CHAMPIONSHIP IN BULLETS/WIZARDS HISTORY! THEN WE ARE THE CLIPPERS, ONLY FOR LONGER.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
User avatar
Clyde Frazier
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,010
And1: 25,680
Joined: Sep 07, 2010

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#6 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed May 10, 2017 2:42 am

Oh, and to answer the question, I'd say your projections are too lofty. A healthy Walton certainly had potential to be anywhere inside the top 20, though.
User avatar
Goudelock
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,291
And1: 20,878
Joined: Jan 27, 2015
Location: College of Charleston
 

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#7 » by Goudelock » Wed May 10, 2017 3:21 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:He got his due in our peaks project voted in at 13:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407905&p=44691488#p44691488


Wow, I've never seen that thread. I need to devote some time to reading everything in it.

and yeah, I agree that my scenario was probably a tad bit too optimistic.
Devin Booker wrote:Bro.
User avatar
Clyde Frazier
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 20,010
And1: 25,680
Joined: Sep 07, 2010

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#8 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed May 10, 2017 3:23 am

PockyCandy wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:He got his due in our peaks project voted in at 13:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407905&p=44691488#p44691488


Wow, I've never seen that thread. I need to devote some time to reading everything in it.


So yeah, peaks as in 1 season. The project thread with links to each results thread is sticky'd on the PC board.
Jim Naismith
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,221
And1: 1,974
Joined: Apr 17, 2013

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#9 » by Jim Naismith » Wed May 10, 2017 3:36 am

PockyCandy wrote:So let's hop in the TARDIS, makes sure that Walton has the durability of AC Green instead of Derrick Rose, and go through a probably unlikely yet sort of reasonable alternate career.


Check out https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/
User avatar
Goudelock
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,291
And1: 20,878
Joined: Jan 27, 2015
Location: College of Charleston
 

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#10 » by Goudelock » Wed May 10, 2017 4:10 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:
PockyCandy wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:He got his due in our peaks project voted in at 13:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1407905&p=44691488#p44691488


Wow, I've never seen that thread. I need to devote some time to reading everything in it.


So yeah, peaks as in 1 season. The project thread with links to each results thread is sticky'd on the PC board.


I don't know how I've never noticed that before now. That thing is a gold-mine of basketball knowledge :o
Devin Booker wrote:Bro.
User avatar
Winsome Gerbil
RealGM
Posts: 15,021
And1: 13,089
Joined: Feb 07, 2010

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#11 » by Winsome Gerbil » Wed May 10, 2017 4:36 am

Bill Walton is a MOAT candidate: Most Overrated of All Time. :)

But yes, if we want to magically pump him up to a level where he's a) better than the greatest players of all time, and b) spanks them all while putting up monster numbers, sure.

P.S. In my next thread I plan on asking, if Jimmer Fredette had brought his Jimmer with him from college, averaged 30-10 for his first 10 years, only losing one title to the Anthony Bennett led Cavs when A.B. averaged a quadruple double in the finals, would Jimmer be GOAT? :)
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 28,633
And1: 23,683
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#12 » by 70sFan » Wed May 10, 2017 7:12 am

So you want to take away the only ring won by Big Wes Unseld? Thanks, I'd rather the real history ;)

Walton clearly had potential to be ~Top 15 ever. In my opinion he's worse than Duncan and Hakeem but he probably never reached his peak. Assuming he would be even better than he was in 1977-78, yeah it's possible that he would make top 10.
User avatar
Goudelock
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,291
And1: 20,878
Joined: Jan 27, 2015
Location: College of Charleston
 

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#13 » by Goudelock » Wed May 10, 2017 1:53 pm

Winsome Gerbil wrote:P.S. In my next thread I plan on asking, if Jimmer Fredette had brought his Jimmer with him from college, averaged 30-10 for his first 10 years, only losing one title to the Anthony Bennett led Cavs when A.B. averaged a quadruple double in the finals, would Jimmer be GOAT? :)


I would love to live in this reality :lol:
Devin Booker wrote:Bro.
trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 11,928
And1: 7,364
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
     

Re: Is Bill Walton a GOAT candidate in this scenario? 

Post#14 » by trex_8063 » Wed May 10, 2017 2:27 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:Oh, and to answer the question, I'd say your projections are too lofty. A healthy Walton certainly had potential to be anywhere inside the top 20, though.


I actually don't think his hypothetical outcomes (had Walton been healthy) are too far-fetched.

However, I think the notion of Walton being healthy is too far-fetched. I know his foot/ankle injuries and aftermath were sort of fluky bad luck.......but even before the foot injuries ever happened, Walton was routinely missing 20-50% of the season while playing somewhat limited minutes for the era (~34 mpg), too; and often had bags of ice taped to his knees while on the bench. In other words, I think it's safe to say he was never going to have a long, durable career under any circumstance.


To answer OP's question, though: I suppose he might have a GOAT case in the hypothetical you described (though more likely in 4-8 range, I think).
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." -George Carlin

"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd

Return to Player Comparisons