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Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence"

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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#41 » by Mr_NC » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:09 am

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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#42 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:20 am

Really don't think this article means what a bunch of you seem to think it means. I also don't really think it's a good analysis of anything, since it is an effort to separate offensive efficiency from talent, but ignores that coaches are going to play to their talent's strengths. I also don't really understand the point of trying to look beyond efficiency in the first place. That ignores the essentially universal "they don't ask how, they ask how many" sport rule. Praising the Sixers for shooting a high percentage of threes despite having no players who can shoot threes efficiently seems like a dumb metric to me.

All it's doing is saying "if you don't play in this specific way, even if you succeed while playing a different way, you will get a low score", which is fine I guess, until the results get wildly misinterpreted by messageboard posters mad that their favourite team lost to Lebron two years in a row.

But whatever. Casey's a moron and Kyle and Demar are killing the franchise.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#43 » by Boogie! » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:28 am

Red_Claw wrote:
Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:
hsb wrote:
I've never seen a team go out of their way to play so stupid. It honestly makes no sense when you dissect the little things. DD gets the green light to shoot from 15-19 feet? He hits them at a 41.2% at 6 shots a game. That's as much as JV shot per game, when you takeaway put backs. PPatt shoots less when you takeaway nothing.

And that's just one example.


What's amazing is the number of 50-win seasons playing this way. It makes me think that continuity, depth, and playing harder than the other team are the main reasons for that, considering their 17-24 record in the playoffs, which sounds about right given the way they play offensively.


To add to that, Mark Jackson has 2 winning seasons out of 3 with Golden state. 47 and 51 wins during the season. 9-10 in the playoffs. Obviously once Kerr was hired, theyre play got significantly better.

You gotta wonder if were one new head coach away from making a serious jump to "elite". We'll never know till we do it.


based on our talent level, i still don't think a new head coach is gonna make us "elite." for example, you can't coach curry raining threes from 30 feet away with a hand in his face. we don't have that level of talent on our team. we don't have guys that can carry us on his own against elite defenses. but if the coach could get us to play more efficiently and implement a scheme that didn't struggle so hard in the playoffs, we'd at least have a chance. which is more than we have right now.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#44 » by Red_Claw » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:40 am

Boogie! wrote:
Red_Claw wrote:
Mr.Raptorsingh wrote:
What's amazing is the number of 50-win seasons playing this way. It makes me think that continuity, depth, and playing harder than the other team are the main reasons for that, considering their 17-24 record in the playoffs, which sounds about right given the way they play offensively.


To add to that, Mark Jackson has 2 winning seasons out of 3 with Golden state. 47 and 51 wins during the season. 9-10 in the playoffs. Obviously once Kerr was hired, theyre play got significantly better.

You gotta wonder if were one new head coach away from making a serious jump to "elite". We'll never know till we do it.


based on our talent level, i still don't think a new head coach is gonna make us "elite." for example, you can't coach curry raining threes from 30 feet away with a hand in his face. we don't have that level of talent on our team. we don't have guys that can carry us on his own against elite defenses. but if the coach could get us to play more efficiently and implement a scheme that didn't struggle so hard in the playoffs, we'd at least have a chance. which is more than we have right now.


Theres that saying: "you're only as good as your weakest link". I think the Raptors are only as good as their strongest. Derozan's lack of 3 pt shooting will always weigh us down.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#45 » by realguile » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:40 am

Mr_NC wrote:Grass is Green, sky is blue and the Raptors pound the rock
Sadly, we're pound sand into glass at this point.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#46 » by team edward » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:28 am

Movement shmovement. The only movement I care about is the ball through the hoop. GS isn't the best team because of progressivism, it's because Mr. Curry, Mr. Durant and their super-friends.

Our highest drafted player is a 300 pound throwback centre. I'd say this franchise is doing OK and I'm happy to have been along for the ride.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in 

Post#47 » by scopy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:56 am

bon wrote:Lol Masai wants a brand new offense with the same head coach. Good luck with that.

There might be some changes...

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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#48 » by Raps in 4 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:25 am

Johnny Bball wrote:Your title is quite correct in what they rank last in fwiw.


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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#49 » by Raps in 4 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:27 am

team edward wrote:Movement shmovement. The only movement I care about is the ball through the hoop. GS isn't the best team because of progressivism, it's because Mr. Curry, Mr. Durant and their super-friends.


Golden State was the best team in the league before they got Durant. They built that team without a single top-5 pick.

Curry: 7th
Klay: 11th
Draymond: 35th

We just don't know how to draft and develop players.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#50 » by Raps in 4 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:29 am

Fairview4Life wrote:Really don't think this article means what a bunch of you seem to think it means. I also don't really think it's a good analysis of anything, since it is an effort to separate offensive efficiency from talent, but ignores that coaches are going to play to their talent's strengths. I also don't really understand the point of trying to look beyond efficiency in the first place. That ignores the essentially universal "they don't ask how, they ask how many" sport rule. Praising the Sixers for shooting a high percentage of threes despite having no players who can shoot threes efficiently seems like a dumb metric to me.


Our playoff efficiency is putrid. It absolutely warrants looking at.

Perhaps there is something in our system that makes it easy to shut down in a 7-game series when coaches have the opportunity to adjust specifically to us.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#51 » by Scott Hall » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:48 am

Blah blah blah....

We haven't had a quality SF in 17 years unless you wanna argue Rudy Gay, Mo Pete and James Johnson...

We didn't have a quality PF for 7 years until we got Ibaka in February...

Upgrade the talent level if you wanna win more
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#52 » by Fairview4Life » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:44 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:Really don't think this article means what a bunch of you seem to think it means. I also don't really think it's a good analysis of anything, since it is an effort to separate offensive efficiency from talent, but ignores that coaches are going to play to their talent's strengths. I also don't really understand the point of trying to look beyond efficiency in the first place. That ignores the essentially universal "they don't ask how, they ask how many" sport rule. Praising the Sixers for shooting a high percentage of threes despite having no players who can shoot threes efficiently seems like a dumb metric to me.


Our playoff efficiency is putrid. It absolutely warrants looking at.

Perhaps there is something in our system that makes it easy to shut down in a 7-game series when coaches have the opportunity to adjust specifically to us.


Sure, maybe there's a problem with the offensive system that teams only figure out how to stop in the playoffs. Or maybe it's a small sample of different players in different matchups and maybe some guys just wilted under pressure at times in the past?
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Re: RE: Re: Raptors ranked last in 

Post#53 » by Raps in 4 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:49 am

Fairview4Life wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:Really don't think this article means what a bunch of you seem to think it means. I also don't really think it's a good analysis of anything, since it is an effort to separate offensive efficiency from talent, but ignores that coaches are going to play to their talent's strengths. I also don't really understand the point of trying to look beyond efficiency in the first place. That ignores the essentially universal "they don't ask how, they ask how many" sport rule. Praising the Sixers for shooting a high percentage of threes despite having no players who can shoot threes efficiently seems like a dumb metric to me.


Our playoff efficiency is putrid. It absolutely warrants looking at.

Perhaps there is something in our system that makes it easy to shut down in a 7-game series when coaches have the opportunity to adjust specifically to us.


Sure, maybe there's a problem with the offensive system that teams only figure out how to stop in the playoffs. Or maybe it's a small sample of different players in different matchups and maybe some guys just wilted under pressure at times in the past?


It's a sample size of 41 games now. Sure we've made changes to the roster in that time frame, but the results have been the same year after year.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#54 » by Kabookalu » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:57 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:Really don't think this article means what a bunch of you seem to think it means. I also don't really think it's a good analysis of anything, since it is an effort to separate offensive efficiency from talent, but ignores that coaches are going to play to their talent's strengths. I also don't really understand the point of trying to look beyond efficiency in the first place. That ignores the essentially universal "they don't ask how, they ask how many" sport rule. Praising the Sixers for shooting a high percentage of threes despite having no players who can shoot threes efficiently seems like a dumb metric to me.


Our playoff efficiency is putrid. It absolutely warrants looking at.

Perhaps there is something in our system that makes it easy to shut down in a 7-game series when coaches have the opportunity to adjust specifically to us.


Our offense in the playoffs looks like how our team would if we didn't have Lowry, because how we play without Lowry in the regular season is pretty putrid. During the regular season Lowry is a legit MVP candidate. In the playoffs he might be an average starter when you weigh everything out. That significant of a drop off from your best player would create a massive void in any team's outcome. Imagine if LeBron James all of a sudden was only as good as Nicholas Batum in the playoffs. Their offense would probably be easy to shut down too.

With that said I'm not in the belief that a new coach would create the kind of tangible positive effects people think it'll have, however I'm still shocked that we brought the same one back.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#55 » by Johnny Bball » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:59 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
Johnny Bball wrote:Your title is quite correct in what they rank last in fwiw.


Don't worry. A culture shift is coming.


Typo in my sentence. Meh matters little.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#56 » by RAPBOSS » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:07 am

Scott Hall wrote:Blah blah blah....

We haven't had a quality SF in 17 years unless you wanna argue Rudy Gay, Mo Pete and James Johnson...

We didn't have a quality PF for 7 years until we got Ibaka in February...

Upgrade the talent level if you wanna win more



Very few teams, if any, have star talent at every position.

Rudy was traded to Sac and shot 50% the rest of the season (system issue anyone?)
JJ is a decent starter and has shown that with the Heat.

Have you forgot Amir? An excellent PF for many years.

BC's core guys have improved "organically", Masai has fixed and improved the surrounding talent, something BC could never do. It's now time to improve the coaching situation.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#57 » by Scott Hall » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:23 am

RAPBOSS wrote:
Scott Hall wrote:Blah blah blah....

We haven't had a quality SF in 17 years unless you wanna argue Rudy Gay, Mo Pete and James Johnson...

We didn't have a quality PF for 7 years until we got Ibaka in February...

Upgrade the talent level if you wanna win more



Very few teams, if any, have star talent at every position.

Rudy was traded to Sac and shot 50% the rest of the season (system issue anyone?)
JJ is a decent starter and has shown that with the Heat.

Have you forgot Amir? An excellent PF for many years.

BC's core guys have improved "organically", Masai has fixed and improved the surrounding talent, something BC could never do. It's now time to improve the coaching situation.


The Raptors played this "Progressive Offence" in the Mid 2000's remember?

Everyone shooting 3's Calderon dishing the ball...and what happened? They weren't talented enough went nowhere
Bosh left to go play with other HOF's and went to 4 Finals winning 2.

What about those Phoenix Suns that everybody loved so much during that same period. They also didn't play
with a natural center and jacked up 3's and shared the ball. What happened to them they had the same fate
as these current Raptors losing in the 3rd and 2nd round as they struggled against Kobe and Duncan like we
do with Lebron.

So Rudy Gay shot 50% for Sac-Town one year? Did the Kings get better or did they suck as always?

I guess we should forget that the Raptors got considerably better and the Iso boys Lowry and DD became All-Stars.
It's like people forget the only stat that counts is the W

Every Raptors fan knew what JJ was capable of and were mystified why Casey barely used him
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#58 » by RAPBOSS » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:36 pm

Scott Hall wrote:
RAPBOSS wrote:
Scott Hall wrote:Blah blah blah....

We haven't had a quality SF in 17 years unless you wanna argue Rudy Gay, Mo Pete and James Johnson...

We didn't have a quality PF for 7 years until we got Ibaka in February...

Upgrade the talent level if you wanna win more



Very few teams, if any, have star talent at every position.

Rudy was traded to Sac and shot 50% the rest of the season (system issue anyone?)
JJ is a decent starter and has shown that with the Heat.

Have you forgot Amir? An excellent PF for many years.

BC's core guys have improved "organically", Masai has fixed and improved the surrounding talent, something BC could never do. It's now time to improve the coaching situation.


The Raptors played this "Progressive Offence" in the Mid 2000's remember?

Everyone shooting 3's Calderon dishing the ball...and what happened? They weren't talented enough went nowhere
Bosh left to go play with other HOF's and went to 4 Finals winning 2.

What about those Phoenix Suns that everybody loved so much during that same period. They also didn't play
with a natural center and jacked up 3's and shared the ball. What happened to them they had the same fate
as these current Raptors losing in the 3rd and 2nd round as they struggled against Kobe and Duncan like we
do with Lebron.

So Rudy Gay shot 50% for Sac-Town one year? Did the Kings get better or did they suck as always?

I guess we should forget that the Raptors got considerably better and the Iso boys Lowry and DD became All-Stars.
It's like people forget the only stat that counts is the W

Every Raptors fan knew what JJ was capable of and were mystified why Casey barely used him


That team with Smitch and the great ball movement was great to watch. Only limited by the overall talent of the team.

I didn't watch much of the Suns playoff runs but I wouldn't say they struggled in the playoffs. They were competitive and just came up short against other great teams.

Now the Raptors come the playoffs is what you call struggling, even against vastly inferior opposition. So much of a struggle it was as though they had to learn to play a completely different sport for those games.

At this point the talent level is what is. Either old Casey learns new tricks with the offence and KL and DD don't revert back to ISO chucking or better yet get a coach for the long run to see what they can do with this core and once the rebuild is in play.
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#59 » by KidDynamit » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:39 pm

Scott Hall wrote:
RAPBOSS wrote:
Scott Hall wrote:Blah blah blah....

We haven't had a quality SF in 17 years unless you wanna argue Rudy Gay, Mo Pete and James Johnson...

We didn't have a quality PF for 7 years until we got Ibaka in February...

Upgrade the talent level if you wanna win more



Very few teams, if any, have star talent at every position.

Rudy was traded to Sac and shot 50% the rest of the season (system issue anyone?)
JJ is a decent starter and has shown that with the Heat.

Have you forgot Amir? An excellent PF for many years.

BC's core guys have improved "organically", Masai has fixed and improved the surrounding talent, something BC could never do. It's now time to improve the coaching situation.


The Raptors played this "Progressive Offence" in the Mid 2000's remember?

Everyone shooting 3's Calderon dishing the ball...and what happened? They weren't talented enough went nowhere
Bosh left to go play with other HOF's and went to 4 Finals winning 2.

What about those Phoenix Suns that everybody loved so much during that same period. They also didn't play
with a natural center and jacked up 3's and shared the ball. What happened to them they had the same fate
as these current Raptors losing in the 3rd and 2nd round as they struggled against Kobe and Duncan like we
do with Lebron.

So Rudy Gay shot 50% for Sac-Town one year? Did the Kings get better or did they suck as always?

I guess we should forget that the Raptors got considerably better and the Iso boys Lowry and DD became All-Stars.
It's like people forget the only stat that counts is the W

Every Raptors fan knew what JJ was capable of and were mystified why Casey barely used him


To be honest this is not right. If you are the team owner, players or coach maybe. But as fans it doesn't really matter if we win or not. What matters is entertainment. Sure winning makes it more fun but you got to make it exciting at some point. The BBall Raptors play is so boring to watch. If I wasn't a Homer I would never watch a Raptors game... ever!
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Re: Raptors ranked last in "progressive offence" 

Post#60 » by LBJKB24MJ23 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:58 pm

Basketball_Jones wrote:
hsb wrote:
dTox wrote:
Its almost like they've never watched a playoff game, or read content of the article itself.

I think Basketball Jones is being sarcastic. At least, that's the only way it makes sense to me haha.


I am never sarcastic, we are an offensive juggernaut. Derozan/Lowry/Casey are like the showtime Lakers.


LOL if you read this as sarcasm - it really does make more sense. :lol:

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