Jimmy Butler for Kennard, Johnson, FRP, Leuer, Galloway - Would you do it?

[Kilo]

Subject says it all - We're of course not on Butler's "re-sign" list, but would you pull an OKC trading Dipo/Sabonis or TO trading DDR+ for Kawhi rental and make a play for Jimmy Butler?

Luke Kennard
Stanley Johnson
2019 FRP (top 3 protected)
Jon Leuer
Langston Galloway

For

Jimmy Butler

Would you pay that price? Would Minnesota accept it?

I think I would do it. Butler walks and we still lopped of 17M off next years cap. And we could keep Butler here if he wanted to stay because Leuer/Galloway's removal softens his extension number blow - and Johnson would suck up a decent amount. Galloway+Johnson+Leuer is probably $25M in salary next season anyways. And then after next season Reggie Jackson comes off the books. So our Big3 would be Butler, Griffin, Drummond.

Butler!
Griffin!
Drummond!

As for this season we'd be -

Jackson|Smith|Calderon
Butler|Bullock|Thomas|Brown
Robinson|Bullock
Griffin|Ellenson
Drummond|Pachulia

Now HUGE hole there is back-up power-forward of course BUT we have two open roster spots and two full Veteran Minimum deals to fit under the tax under the proposed deal. See what PF veterans are cut, sign a stop gap, save rest of space for post-trade deadline vet cuts or Chinese league ending and Trevor Booker, Speights, Jefferson coming back over etc. We'd now be able to use Boban's TPE as well to trade for a PF back-up even.

Butler walks and we're -
Jackson
Bullock|Thomas|Brown
Robinson
Griffin|Ellenson
Drummond

No FRP would hurt but with the team we'd have this year it would be high 20's at least in a weak draft class. We'd have lopped of Leuer, Galloway, Johnson's money next year, Ish expires as well so we'd be down $30M is tax space.

[Neptune]

I would try my best to keep Stanley, but yes, I would do it! Now that we have Casey as our coach I think we need to go all in!

[Kilo]

On an aside we could include Bullock instead of Johnson and not touch any of the core outside of Kennard. Not touching the BFF's Drummond/Jackson/Johnson. Minnesota might want Bullock over Johnson as well - their call if it was a deal breaker or not. Subbing Bullock for Johnson only gives us tax room for one vet minimum player - surely a PF we need to find somewhere/anywhere.

R.Jackson|I.Smith|J.Calderon
J.Butler|G.Robinson|K.Thomas|B.Brown
S.Johnson|G.Robinson
B.Griffin|*Vet Minimum FA*|H.Ellenson
A.Drummond|Z.Pachulia

[Snakebites]

Honestly? I'd probably consider it because it makes us temporarily better and gets us out of some terrible contracts.

That said, even if they don't have great leverage I think they would likely be able to secure a deal that doesn't involve them taking back the multi-million dollar long term paper weights that are Galloway and Leuer. Those aren't neutral fillers. They have seriously negative value, and I'd imagine such contracts would be deal-breakers for the Wolves.

[Billl]

The twolves would never accept this, but we would have to jump on that. Just make sure the pick is this year. If it works, great. If he walks, we just cleared out most of the roster for a rebuild.

[Kilo]

Honestly? I'd probably consider it because it makes us temporarily better and gets us out of some terrible contracts.

That said, even if they don't have great leverage I think they would likely be able to secure a deal that doesn't involve them taking back the multi-million dollar long term paper weights that are Galloway and Leuer. Those aren't neutral fillers. They have seriously negative value, and I'd imagine such contracts would be deal-breakers for the Wolves.

Ish instead of Galloway would still work. They get an expiring. Nothing we can do about Leuer though - needed for salary matching purposes. Leuer is from Minnesota - that could be something to sell the trade a bit more with locals.

Kennard, Bullock or Johnson and a FRP is probably a comparable "keeper package" than any deal they eventually agree to IMO. Teams on his list are less likely to pony up for him.

[The Penguin]

In a heartbeat. Adding Butler to Drummond & Blake forces us into the top of the East conversation.

Seems more realistic to have something like Kennard / Stanley / Ellenson / a mildly protected 1st and one of Leuer / Galloway for filler. Given past trade offers and what teams on this list (or other teams have to offer) I don't think it's a laughable offer by any means.

[PistonsSince85]

Lol, of course. Dump a bunch of **** players and contracts for a one year trial with an allstar.

Minnesota would never accept this trade.

[Canadafan]

Sign me up!

[K4P]

yuck

[DetroitPistons]

Absolutely. I mentioned going after him a couple times before. We are locked into win now mode for the foreseeable future anyway so we might as well commit. Getting Butler would vault us into a top 3 seed. The trade would need to be modified though since theres no way they will take both Galloway and Leuer. Kennard and the FRP are the cornerstones but I would also offer Bullock (the most underrated 3&D player in the league who is also dirt cheap and offers cap flexibility) and Ish Smith (one of the better backup PGs in the league). My offer would be Kennard, FRP, Smith, Bullock, and Galloway OR Leuer for Butler. Some may scoff a bit because they don't know good Smith and Bullock are and many still have the mindset that star players all require 3 FRPs and 2 starters or something ridiculous like that but history has been very clear that star players can be had for the type of package I just suggested.

Jackson
Butler
Johnson
Griffin
Drummond

That's one hell of a team and that wing defense

[Invictus88]

We are locked into win now mode for the foreseeable future anyway so we might as well commit.

I've never really understood the rationale above. It isn't really an either/or proposition. Using the fact that we've made stupid moves in the past to win now to justify making MORE stupid moves (and sacrificing what little assets we have left) is just... stupid.
I mean, do you really think that Jimmy Butler is going to get us to the promised land? And are we really going to want to give him the 4-year/141 million that he will require to stay? On top of the 4-years/142 million we are paying Blake?

Say it with me: "Paying Jimmy Butler and Blake Griffin a combined 70 million dollars a year will lead us to a championship"

Feeling a bit sheepish yet? Would you really want to put that as your forum sig? No? But why not?

I really think that some people on here won't stop until the entire Pistons franchise has completely burned to the ground; with absolutely no assets left; no prospect of the future for decades. But at that point they will probably just shrug and then go start rooting for the Warriors or Lakers; leaving behind the wreckage they desperately hungered for in the offseason with 10-second attention spans.

(Note that I am not talking about the original trade that I'm still iffy on because of the FRP. I'm talking about the updated offer of offering Kennard, Bullock, Smith, a FRP, and only one of Leuer or Galloway. At that point we literally have no tradeable assets. Mission accomplished pyromaniacs. )

[Billl]

"I really think that some people on here won't stop until the entire Pistons franchise has completely burned to the ground; with absolutely no assets left; no prospect of the future for decades. "

Sorry, this is just dumb. 4 yr contracts and 1 draft pick doesn't destroy the future for decades.

The reality is that we don't have any prospects on the roster. If anyone is willing to give up an allstar for the crap sandwich we have to offer, that would be shocking.

But yes, blake/butler/dre isn' a great fit. If butler resigned, we'd need to flip Dre and maybe an expiring RJ for a high level perimeter player and some more shooters.

[The Penguin]

I think Butler is very obtainable. It sounds like the big market teams he requested are all willing to try to sign him as a FA (they all have room). A package built around Stanley / Kennard / pick isn’t THAT far off what the Wolves originally gave up for him and that was before he tanked his value. We’ve seen a rash of “star” trades lately, elite young talent (which we lack) hasn’t been moved in these deals.

[Manocad]

Puhleeze. The Pistons are Lebron James away from competing for a championship MAYBE if only one player is to be added. And Jimmy Butler ain’t Lebron.


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[Invictus88]

Sorry, this is just dumb. 4 yr contracts and 1 draft pick doesn't destroy the future for decades.

I wasn't talking about a single transaction. I was talking about the continued idea that "we're committed to winning now, so just keep on sacrificing more assets to win now" mentality'.

It's been over a decade with that approach. Where are we at with that?

Want to add Jimmy Butler (overpay and loss of pick) to a list that includes Ben Gordon (overpay and loss of pick) , Charlie V, Jody Meeks, Josh Smith, Leuer, Galloway and Blake Griffin (overpay and loss of pick)?

All of the above were either gross overpays of known talent level (Gordon, Smith, Griffin) or high for an unproven player (Leuer, Meeks, Galloway, CharlieV)

Every one of those moves were made to win now.

[DetroitPistons]

We are locked into win now mode for the foreseeable future anyway so we might as well commit.

I've never really understood the rationale above. It isn't really an either/or proposition. Using the fact that we've made stupid moves in the past to win now to justify making MORE stupid moves (and sacrificing what little assets we have left) is just... stupid.
I mean, do you really think that Jimmy Butler is going to get us to the promised land? And are we really going to want to give him the 4-year/141 million that he will require to stay? On top of the 4-years/142 million we are paying Blake?

Say it with me: "Paying Jimmy Butler and Blake Griffin a combined 70 million dollars a year will lead us to a championship"

Feeling a bit sheepish yet? Would you really want to put that as your forum sig? No? But why not?

I really think that some people on here won't stop until the entire Pistons franchise has completely burned to the ground; with absolutely no assets left; no prospect of the future for decades. But at that point they will probably just shrug and then go start rooting for the Warriors or Lakers; leaving behind the wreckage they desperately hungered for in the offseason with 10-second attention spans.

(Note that I am not talking about the original trade that I'm still iffy on because of the FRP. I'm talking about the updated offer of offering Kennard, Bullock, Smith, a FRP, and only one of Leuer or Galloway. At that point we literally have no tradeable assets. Mission accomplished pyromaniacs. )

So going out and getting one of the best two-way players in the league to add to a core of Jackson/Griffin/Drummond and vaulting us into the top tier in the East is stupid? That team is a potential finals contender if they gel. So no, its not Butler and Griffin taking us to a championship. It's Butler and Griffin and Drummond and Jackson and Dwane Casey and hopefully good role players that we can add later on (who knows, maybe SJ finally breaks out under Casey too). You may think that sounds stupid but I think it's counter intuitive to waste Griffin's years to "rebuild" without actually being able to tank, because we aren't even close to being bad enough to get a top pick. I swear some people are not happy unless we do a full on PHI process for half a decade. That's unrealistic and PHI would not even be better than us if we did that trade. There are other ways to build a contender and it normally is done by building a respectable team and then making a big trade or two. Look at HOU. They are a perfect example. I remember when people thought they were dumb to trade for and then max out Harden. Then they got some good role players, had guys like Capela develop, Dantoni was a home run fit for them, and then they traded for Chris Paul and all of a sudden they are one hamstring injury away from beating GSW in 6 games. Anyway, I think it's pretty hyperbolic to call getting Butler with that deal flat out "stupid." You may disagree but many would think that is a great move for us, especially considering our current roster and cap situation.

[DetroitPistons]

Sorry, this is just dumb. 4 yr contracts and 1 draft pick doesn't destroy the future for decades.

I wasn't talking about a single transaction. I was talking about the continued idea that "we're committed to winning now, so just keep on sacrificing more assets to win now" mentality'.

It's been over a decade with that approach. Where are we at with that?

Want to add Jimmy Butler (overpay and loss of pick) to a list that includes Ben Gordon (overpay and loss of pick) , Charlie V, Jody Meeks, Josh Smith, Leuer, Galloway and Blake Griffin (overpay and loss of pick)?

All of the above were either gross overpays of known talent level (Gordon, Smith, Griffin) or high for an unproven player (Leuer, Meeks, Galloway, CharlieV)

Every one of those moves were made to win now.

Please tell me you are not lumping prime Butler and Griffin in with Gordon, CV, Meeks, Josh Smith, Leuer, and and Galloway?

[Invictus88]

Sorry, this is just dumb. 4 yr contracts and 1 draft pick doesn't destroy the future for decades.

I wasn't talking about a single transaction. I was talking about the continued idea that "we're committed to winning now, so just keep on sacrificing more assets to win now" mentality'.

It's been over a decade with that approach. Where are we at with that?

Want to add Jimmy Butler (overpay and loss of pick) to a list that includes Ben Gordon (overpay and loss of pick) , Charlie V, Jody Meeks, Josh Smith, Leuer, Galloway and Blake Griffin (overpay and loss of pick)?

All of the above were either gross overpays of known talent level (Gordon, Smith, Griffin) or high for an unproven player (Leuer, Meeks, Galloway, CharlieV)

Every one of those moves were made to win now.

Please tell me you are not lumping prime Butler and Griffin in with Gordon, CV, Meeks, Josh Smith, Leuer, and and Galloway?

If you mean spending more than they are actually worth? Then absolutely. It's not like we are talking a million or two. Both players will likely make tens of millions more than their actual worth to the teams that pay them. We are the team that is paying Blake. If we were to trade for and then sign Butler we'd be doing the same for him as well.

[Invictus88]

So going out and getting one of the best two-way players in the league to add to a core of Jackson/Griffin/Drummond and vaulting us into the top tier in the East is stupid?

It is if we have to pay him superstar money to retain him. Listen, I like Butler but he is not worth the $35 million a year that you have to pay to retain him. Especially to us. We are already way above market price with several players on our team.

JB isn't the last piece that we need. A lineup of Reggie, JB, SJ, Blake and Drummond has *big* flaws in today's game. Blake and Drummond did limit each other when they were on the court last year outside of a few games. SJ has played *terrible* and not NBA-worthy for long stretches. Reggie doesn't even do anything in the offseason to ensure his health is as good as it can be for the regular season. These are BIG red flags. Teams with these types of issues don't go ahead and sign a guy for 35 million a year unless it's going to fix some of them. And JB won't fix those issues. So now you are just paying MORE and still facing a pretty big uphill battle against better talent without the flaws. But we'd be paying as much.

You may think that sounds stupid but I think it's counter intuitive to waste Griffin's years to "rebuild" without actually being able to tank, because we aren't even close to being bad enough to get a top pick.

There are other ways of getting high draft picks without tanking. Using cap space effectively as a trade chip is one of them.

I swear some people are not happy unless we do a full on PHI process for half a decade.

Nobody is asking for a Philadelphia rebuild. What we haven't had here in Detroit for over a decade is the patience to actually be conservative with assets (including cap space) and take advantage of other teams desperate to make impulse moves. We almost always are on the wrong side of these transactions; frittering away picks and weighing ourselves down with dead money. It's funny. Two of the best moves we have made were when we were on the **right** side: Marcus Morris (Phoenix desperate to shed salary to try and sign LaMarcus Aldridge) and Tobias Harris (Orlando looking to shed salary for the 2016 FA class). We could take advantage of those situations because we had the cap space and picks to spare. We need to be patient.

Look. I will agree that I was a bit on the strong side with my messaging. For that, my apologies. (This thread feels too much like the Kemba thread) But I am just sick and tired of people coming up with new and better ways to leave the cupboards completely bare because they are bored during the offseason.

We have a coach that is good at developing young talent. How about we keep our picks and give him something to develop instead of giving up those resources. How about we finally become a seller when it comes to open cap space and a buyer of draft picks for a change?