#7 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

We move on to the sixth place, the #7 best defensive Point Guard of all time.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton

These are some candidates, but if you want to vote for somebody that's not in the list and explain why, that's fine, you can do it

Slater Martin (Minneapolis Lakers, Knicks, St.Louis Hawks, 1950/1960
K.C.Jones (Boston, 1959/1967)
Wali Jones (Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Utah Stars, Detroit, 1965/76)
Norm Van Lier (Cincinnati Royals, Bulls, Bucks, 1970/1979)
Don Buse (Indiana Pacers, Phoenix Suns, Portland, Kansas City Kings, 1973/1976 ABA, 1977/1985 NBA)
Slick Watts (Seattle Supersonics, New Orleans Jazz, Rockets, 1974/79)
Quinn Buckner (Milwaukee Bucks, Boston, Indiana, 1977/1986)
Dennis Johnson (Seattle, Phoenix, Boston, 1977/1990)
Micheal Ray Richardson (Knicks, Warriors, Nets, 1979/1986)
Maurice Cheeks (Philadeplhia, Spurs, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, 1979/1993)
Derek Harper (Dallas, Knicks, Orlando, Lakers, 1984/1999)
Nate McMillan (Seattle, 1987/1998)
Mookie Blaylock (Nets, Hawks, Warriors, 1990/2002)
Lindsey Hunter (Pistons, Bucks, Lakers, Raptors, Bulls, 1994/2010)
Eric Snow (Seattle, Philadelphia, Cavs, 1996/2008)
Chris Paul (Clippers, Rockets, 2006-2018+)
Jrue Holiday (Philadelphia, Pelicans, 2010-2018+)
Ricky Rubio (Minnesota, Utah Jazz, 2012-2018+)
Patrick Beverley (Rockets, Clippers, 2013-2018+)

Make your pick and explain why.

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players considered as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is not certain, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

Thank you guys for your partecipation

[Gibson22]

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[KnickFan33]

Chris Paul

[penbeast0]

Open to Chris Paul, good defender, advanced stats agree but if those same advanced stats say Ricky Rubio is better, what's the argument for Paul over Rubio? Open to change my vote if this can be explained away to my understanding.

Open to KC Jones, but if the Russell Celtics don't improve significantly on defense when they went from a bad defender in Bob Cousy to KC, is he really that impressive or just a product of Russell's dominance? Again, if someone can show me that the Celtics DID improve dramatically moving from Cousy to KC Jones, I am willing to change my vote because by reputation he should probably be top 5.

Open to Nate McMillan, as he is probably the best defender left per minute. But he just didn't play that many minutes compared to other candidates and he didn't cause the kind of disruption that I remember from the best of Walt Frazier or Gary Payton.

Vote: Mookie Blaylock. Hawks were a very good defensive team most of his years despite Dominique Wilkins (who was voted in a TSN poll by fellow players as the NBA player least interested in playing defense). With no strong defensive stats available and the eye test not making any candidate except possibly Nate McMillan stand out more (McMillan's size made him more of a shutdown guy), team defense results v. my expectations for that team is my fallback defensive backup to the eye test.

[Gibson22]

CP3 blew a 5-3 lead twice in a row. Anyway, this is the first time that I firmly disagree, Kidd #1 is a spot that I don't like but I surely was impressed with his defense and I think he's a top five and I think he is better than stockton and cp3, but stockton over cp3 I really disagree, I hoped that cp3 would win, I have him as the better defender between the two, and as I mentioned there are a few other guys I would have picked before stock. Honestly I think that stockton was the worst between the players who recieved votes in the last thread (him, cp3, cheeks, nate, blaylock) + MRR, harper, jrue and don buse.

Now I expect CP3 to win this one, but again, I'm voting Nate McMillan At this point nobody has a big longevity argument above him

[SkyHookFTW]

Going with Mo Cheeks again for reasons previously stated.

[kendogg]

My vote remains CP3. He was stuck on **** teams for most of his career but he's an absolute beast on both ends of the court. Modern day Stockton. If he had a Malone type guy for his career I don't think CP3 vs Stockton would be debatable. Not that Stockton isn't super elite but CP3 is basically just a slightly better version of him.

[Owly]

Open to Chris Paul, good defender, advanced stats agree but if those same advanced stats say Ricky Rubio is better, what's the argument for Paul over Rubio? Open to change my vote if this can be explained away to my understanding.

Open to KC Jones, but if the Russell Celtics don't improve significantly on defense when they went from a bad defender in Bob Cousy to KC, is he really that impressive or just a product of Russell's dominance? Again, if someone can show me that the Celtics DID improve dramatically moving from Cousy to KC Jones, I am willing to change my vote because by reputation he should probably be top 5.

Open to Nate McMillan, as he is probably the best defender left per minute. But he just didn't play that many minutes compared to other candidates and he didn't cause the kind of disruption that I remember from the best of Walt Frazier or Gary Payton.

Vote: Mookie Blaylock. Hawks were a very good defensive team most of his years despite Dominique Wilkins (who was voted in a TSN poll by fellow players as the NBA player least interested in playing defense). With no strong defensive stats available and the eye test not making any candidate except possibly Nate McMillan stand out more (McMillan's size made him more of a shutdown guy), team defense results v. my expectations for that team is my fallback defensive backup to the eye test.

Some thoughts ...

On Paul vs Rubio: I don't have the best grasp on the various impact metrics (whether technically, whose versions of RAPM are best, interpreting it etc) so I'm not the guy for detail on this. Their DRPM's (for ease of use and not having to choose a version of RAPM and find out what years are available etc) for the past 5 years, at a glance, don't suggest a clear gap.

17-18
Rubio: 1.98
Paul: 1.63

16-17
Rubio: 0.76
Paul: 2.76

15-16
Rubio: 1.89
Paul: 2.44

14-15
Rubio: 2.33 (692 minutes)
Paul: 0.47

13-14
Rubio: 2.47
Paul: 1.95

Prior to that (or overall) Paul has massive minutes advantage. I guess I'd be inclined to Paul over Rubio, but wouldn't be averse to either, but don't see Rubio as eliminating Paul from the field. Fwiw, and it doesn't matter so much after the fact but based on the 97-14 RAPM Paul kills Payton, and is only a little worse than Kidd (and he seems to have lifted that number, probably above Kidd's, in the years since).

On K.C. hard for me to rank him. Just so much less information to go on (and so different - i.e. anecdotal) that it's hard to compare, and maybe that hurts him here. What I will say is that it's hard to gauge an "impact on arrival". You look at the year Cousy goes, but Jones' minutes jump up in small increments each year. His departure might be a better gauge, though still probably noisy.

On Blaylock-Wilkins: Blaylock plays 1 5/8 of a season with Wilkins (1992-3 and and about 49 games of 1993-94). For the full season, the Hawks weren't a great defensive team (110.2 Drtg in 108.0 average league - this ranked the 23rd out of 27 teams). For the partial season they are much better, without looking at the splits.

Also on Wilkins, I've heard you cite the Wilkins "least interested defender" poll out there before and I don't think it's "wrong" but it's maybe not the full picture and might color you too much on him (maybe it's just a specific instance you remember - maybe it's just a subtext that I read in that he's dreadful at that end) so I'll dig out some Wilkins review from this time and see what they say:

No one has ever doubted WIlkins' physical tools for D - strength, lateral quickness, jumping ability ... But, hey, he's a scorer and, except for the last few minutes of a game, doesn't consistently focus on defense... As one savant described it: Wilkins' defense can be "very good or very mediocre" ... Generally it tends towards the latter ... Best asset defensively is ability to play passing lanes (about 1 steal a game)
Grade: B-

A Clipper source aptly summarized 'Nique's D: "He can get after people when it's absolutely necessary. But if it's not absolutely necessary, he's leaking out" ... A minority opinion holds that his defense is "better than he's give credit for" ... He'll deny the ball, front the post, and so on ... The better view is that Wilkins saves himself for offense
Grade: C

The scale is AAA to D and has to allow for reviewing non-starters as well, of course. Interpret as you will ...

[homecourtloss]

CP3 for reasons already stated.

[trex_8063]

If I was considering only per-minute defensive impact, or cumulative defensive impact over his best 3-4 seasons, I could go for Nate McMillan. But as this is about career wholes---and although I'm not taking straight-up cumulative career value---it makes it a little too hard to go with him over some of the other top candidates.

I've been going with Chris Paul the last couple threads, so I'm going to stick with him. Paul is [imo] one of the most intelligent defenders of his entire generation (probably of all-time), has quick hands, and is built like a tank (so he's not easily abused in the post). The only thing working against him is his relatively lacking length. Frankly, if he were a few inches longer, he'd likely be the greatest defensive PG of all-time.

I think Maurice Cheeks would be a fine candidate, too, and deserves some traction at this point (Blaylock also looks good). But I'll stick with CP3.

[eminence]

This one's a really tricky one for me. I don't feel box-score statistics do a very good job of capturing guard defense, and impact metrics aren't available for most, so I'll list some accolades and basic numbers. Having played enough minutes is big for me. I generally favor the bigger guards, I think they do a better job translating defensive impact across scenarios.

Guys I'm considering:
Chris Paul - 7x 1st Team, 2x 2nd Team, 31k minutes, 6'0
Mookie Blaylock - 2x 1st Team, 4x 2nd Team, 31k minutes, 6'0
Maurice Cheeks - 4x 1st Team, 1x 2nd Team, 35k minutes, 6'1
Don Buse - 6x 1st Team(2 in ABA), 0x 2nd Team, 26k minutes, 6'4
Norm Van Lier - 3x First Team, 5x 2nd Team, 26k minutes, 6'1

I like guys like Rubio/Jrue/McMillan, but they've just played a lot less time than some of the above guys.

CP3 has a accolade edge on the competition at this point, Cheeks a bit ahead on minutes, Buse best fits the physical profile I'm looking for in an elite defensive guard.

Still thinking at this point, will be reading others thoughts with interest.

[cecilthesheep]

Now that Stockton is finally off the board, I'll vote for Chris Paul. Pretty much as good, at his peak, as anyone else we're considering, and he's kept it up for an unbelievably long time. His weakness is switchability, but I think at this point that's just picking nits. I consider him a slightly worse Stockton, but only slightly.

[trex_8063]

Anyone know of a defensive highlight reel or similar for either Nate McMillan or Eric Snow? There's a lot of Snow's time in Philly (full or partial games) available on YouTube, so I guess higher priority on McMillan.

[Samurai]

Repeating my vote for Mookie Blaylock.

[SHAQ32]

Mookie Blaylock

[pandrade83]

Repeating Blaylock for reasons stated in prior thread.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Vote Mo Cheeks

I liked Nate McMillan but his low minutes per game bother me.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Here is a little young 1989 McMillan

Watch on YouTube

[Gibson22]

No one has ever doubted WIlkins' physical tools for D - strength, lateral quickness, jumping ability ... But, hey, he's a scorer and, except for the last few minutes of a game, doesn't consistently focus on defense... As one savant described it: Wilkins' defense can be "very good or very mediocre" ... Generally it tends towards the latter ... Best asset defensively is ability to play passing lanes (about 1 steal a game)
Grade: B-

A Clipper source aptly summarized 'Nique's D: "He can get after people when it's absolutely necessary. But if it's not absolutely necessary, he's leaking out" ... A minority opinion holds that his defense is "better than he's give credit for" ... He'll deny the ball, front the post, and so on ... The better view is that Wilkins saves himself for offense
Grade: C

The scale is AAA to D and has to allow for reviewing non-starters as well, of course. Interpret as you will ...

Hey, can I find these online somewhere? And it was only for the start of the 90s?

[Gibson22]

I found this but it's almost nothing

https://vimeo.com/40545963