Does this video dispute the myth that 80's and 90's defense was better?

[True Sports]

Watch on YouTube

[Q C]

Do people say that at all? People say that defense back then was more physical and that they'd like to see a return to allowing that type of play. Never seen anyone say those teams played better defense

[og15]

Some people mix up being more physical or fouling hard with actually defending better. I don’t think in general people say the defense was better. 80’s and early 90’s was different from late 90’s and early 2000’s. In the late 90’s and early 2000’s, the slow pace, the move to iso ball around one scorer with a lot of teams having poor offensive players around them, then later the addition of zone while teams were still putting out non shooters at the 3 and 4 was part of what made defenses able to do so well statistically. Many teams were just easier to guard than they would be based on how rosters are built now. That differed from the 80’s and 90’s. Strategically, the defense has definitely been better in the late 90’s and then also into the 2000’s and 2010’s. Hand checking and zone balanced themsevles out in different ways forcing teams to do different things on offense and defense, and hard fouls does not make a defense good or better. This doesn’t mean there weren’t good defensive teams in the 80’s and early 90’s, of course there were, but the later teams built upon the principles that coaches of those older teams developed and then as teams adjusted, they built even more.

With the additional enforcement and additional rules, we are actually moving more to what the 80’s and 90’s looked like in terms of team offensive output, just with more of a focus on the 3PT shot as that has developed more as a strategy.

[levon]

The defense is even less effective now. Now you have to switch, and you're spaced out by shooters and a lob threat, and have to guard ISOs all day. At least the ISOs in that video started in the post and were met with help defenders in the paint.

Offensive players can pick and choose their own mismatches to exploit or immediately fire a clear pass to a player overhelping, which is likely a pass to a 3.

[draftnightsuit]

Nobody actually believes that defense was better in the ‘80s and ‘90s. It’s just a talking point for people to romanticize past eras.

[knuckles862]

Perimeter defense is better today but interior defense was better back then imo

[og15]

Perimeter defense is better today but interior defense was better back then imo

Possible, and it is a product of rule changes, roster construction and offensive strategy. Some of the less mobile interior defenders in the past who could just stay in the paint with no 3 in the key and rarely had to guard anyone outside can’t play much now, even as recently as a couple of seasons ago, a guy like Roy Hibbert was made ineffective. The interior defenders who can still play now and who would still be very good, those guys still won’t be close to the basket / in position as often because of both 3 in the key stretch 4/5’s and teams trying to force switches to bring the big out of the paint. So it’s not a case where interior defenders now are “worse”, but that offensive strategy and rule changes have made them have to work harder to accomplish similar things.

[Wizenheimer]

the Detroit 'Bad Boys' teams played some exceptional defense but they were generally an exception.

And the rules allowed a lot more contact, especially in the paint. It's gone from the Karate rules of then, to the hand check rules of later, to the 'freedom-of-movement-don't-breathe-on-the-offense' rules of today

[Hugi Mancura]

There are other changes too. If people haven't noticed those role players are really good shooters today. So even if rule allows players to linger near 3 second area they won't because it would mean his man would be open and would make his open shot. But it wasn't like that in 80's or 90's because teams usually had 2-3 players in the court who weren't good shooters. So there was always more than one body under the basket. Even in the video there was this part where Jordan drove to the basket and there was 5 Celtics players inside 3 second area challenging his shot and no illegal defense calls. If you compare it to modern player driving to the hoop he might have one defender defending there.

Other thing. Game in 80's and 90's was very tactical. When today you can see those screen plays to get your superstar to play iso against other teams worst defender in 80's and 90's it was your best offensive player vs their best defensive player. So tactical part of the game was much weaker. Statistics guys ruining game again?

Was defense better? Yes, in a certain way it was. Not necessary because defenders were better, but because offensive options were more limited. More shooters means more room for you stars. Rule changes did make role players more important and also stars need passing ability more than before. But I would think the improvement of the role players would have caused game to be very similar now with or without rule changes. If we add better shooters and no zone it would most likely mean teams would double stars more than they do now. This would mean stars would have to pass the ball to role players who then would have to make the decision, but now because of zone defense teams don't actually need to double the star player, so stars can keep the ball in their hands more and thus can keep on scoring.

[magnumt]

It's that the Defense was better. It's that they played rougher and harder.

Also, their were done high ass scoring teams in the 80s. During the 90s tho, points were hard to come by in the Playoffs.

#NoLayupRule

--Mags

[clyde21]

They weren't better. It's a myth that's been perpetuated by those gen fans. The were just allowed to be more physical. But that's not 'better defense'. You can get any goon off the street and put him on the basketball court and ask him to dirty it up. The trick is defending without needing to absolutely mug the offensive player.

Also offenses back then were just easier to defend. Less action, less ball movement, less spacing. You put a great defender from today back then and he's better, you take a great defender back then and put him today and he's worse.

[alebaba]

Let's take out a couple clips and make a highlight. Just like you can make any player look like Mj with some highlight... Game was a lot more physical back then, if you think otherwise then you have never seen 90s basketball.

[levon]

They weren't better. It's a myth that's been perpetuated by those gen fans. The were just allowed to be more physical. But that's not 'better defense'. You can get any goon off the street and put him on the basketball court and ask him to dirty it up. The trick is defending without needing to absolutely mug the offensive player.

Also offenses back then were just easier to defend. Less action, less ball movement, less spacing. You put a great defender from today back then and he's better, you take a great defender back then and put him today and he's worse.

Being unfairly physical and offenses being so much more advanced today are mutually exclusive imo. You're right that ball and player movement is much more difficult to guard, but because of the change in values of the league, everything is much more difficult to guard.

The advances of offense schematically is greatly overrated imo. It's just that everyone exploits the overpowered shots and advantages in today's game.

[Sark]

The notion that zones weren't played in the 80s and 90s is patently false. Just because they got called for illegal defense didn't stop them from still playing it. It would be akin to saying players don't travel because the refs will call it. In fact players travel every game. Many many times

Here's an article from Jack McCallum in Sports Illustrated 1985:

https://www.si.com/vault/1985/10/28/628680/give-the-dan-a-plus

The fact is, everyone in the NBA plays zone to one degree or another. (With the possible exception of George Gervin, who plays neither zone nor man-to-man.) "A perfectly relevant question at this point," says Bob Ryan, the veteran basketball observer of The Boston Globe, "is, does anyone in the NBA play man-to-man?"

The Knicks under Hubie Brown constantly press full-court, often with a 1-3-1 zone. "After a made free throw or field goal," says guard Darrell Walker, "we're coming after you." They start it near the end line just after the opposition has taken the ball out of bounds—perfectly legal—and they attempt to force the ball to one outside alley or the other and double-team it in a corner of the court, which is also perfectly legal. It is a zone, pure and simple, but the kind of zone that the rules allow. It was so slick that last season it brought the Knicks the league lead in illegal defenses with 90. Watch complaints about the legality of Hubie's press soar this year when Ewing starts "rotating."

Milwaukee, arguably the best defensive team in the league last season, seems to draw the most fire about its tactics. In Nelson's system defenders switch every time offensive players cross—or anytime a potential pick is set. At all times the Bucks' strategy is to keep their own big men under the basket. Golden State coach John Bach says the Cavs and Celtics are two other teams expert in using partial zone on a switch.

Systems aside, there are teams that rely upon "team defenders." When someone calls an opponent a team defender, he means: "That s.o.b. plays zone 90 percent of the time." The leading team defender, by acclamation, is Larry Bird, who on a remarkable number of occasions has been seen drawing offensive fouls and just plain getting in the way of players who aren't his to guard. Ironically, the cover of this year's official NBA Guide is a perfect illustration—Michael Jordan, openmouthed, is driving to the basket and there is Bird underneath on defense, even though Bird would almost never have the responsibility for checking a speedster like Jordan.

Bird plays smart, and smart players test the limits of rules. Abdul-Jabbar has done it for years. Bird has everything about the guidelines figured out, including the fact that because the game moves so swiftly and it is impossible for anyone on the floor to watch the entire court, officials are disinclined to call illegal defenses more than once or twice a game—note that the 1,193 illegal defense calls in 1984-85 occurred in 943 games and produced only 157 free throws.

Even then, it's not a bad foul to take: The first violation results only in a resetting of the 24-second clock (unless it occurs in the final 24 seconds of a period), and all others award one technical foul shot to the offensive team. Says Bird, "If you can get two or three steals before they call it, you're ahead of the game."

The final problem, of course, is that illegal defenses, however comprehensible in the rule book, are just plain hard to recognize on the court, even for the zebras. Frequently a violation will be whistled on the possession that immediately follows an assistant coach screaming: "Illegal defense! Illegal defense!" This is hardly science. Garretson, who knows the guidelines inside and out, admitted that when he worked a summer game without them, "It was like a vacation."

[GYK]

no. better should never be the word use for any era. especially on defense with the rule changes and the differences needed each era.


80's-hand check, illegal defense yet a high pace and high usage of post scoring. reason why players/teams that move the ball and can score from the post dominated. reason why best defenders on the perimeter are closer to team defenders than isolation defenders. not one or the other but how much of their defense focus were made.


90''s and 00's-hand check, illegal defense, slow pace, post scoring and a rise of spot up three pointers. the rise of isolation scorers and isolation defenders.


04-no hand check, no illegal defense, slow pace, zone, more shooting present. team defenders became a little more important. the rise of the Lebron archetype became dominant. the dual threat lead ball handler. pick and roll to beat zones. either pass or score.


10's-zone defense, high pace, highest level of shooting. back to no lead ball handler. back to team defense being the best. the best defense is defending shooters screening for shooters.

[richboy]

Don't have time to watch the video. I did see the 80s and 90s. Not sure 80s ever were in the discussion of better defensively. That said I'm pretty sure what is in the video. Which is why at least the 90s is much more difficult to score in the half court. That is just terrible floor spacing. I did a topic years ago about the magic of Jordan. That he had to score at a time that you would see literally 8 guys standing 1 step from the paint or inside. It is so funny now that Lebron can get past 1 guy and no he has a uncontested layup. I haven't looked at the video but that is the biggest difference between now and back then.

Also a big difference between now and then is centers. The center is coming back but the 90s was really was a big man's league except for Jordan. Most teams had a huge center and they had a PF that was also really big. It was Hakeem and Thorpe. Ewing and Oakley. Shaq and Grant.

Now the idea of defense being better is really determined by the offense. Having everyone in the paint is not going to be good defense today. Just to much shooting to play defense like that. Too much speed and ball handling to play 2 bigs like that. It is just a different way of playing. The one thing I would say is he your a player like Lebron, Westbrook, or Giannis. Someone who isn't a consistent outside shooter. You would have had some really bad shooting seasons. If Iverson played today. He was part of that ugly era of basketball in terms of just bad spacing. He would get 5-7 points on his fg% added easy. I would do that for many of the players of the 80s that were great at getting to the rim. Not every player would perform better today but a decent number would.

I think the players that would play better in the 80s and 90 from today are the bigs. Guys like Joel, Towns, Jokic, Howard would have even bigger impact in that time. As pretty much everyone not named the Bulls was trying to play inside out.

[Johnny Bball]

And it took about 7 years for them to figure put the easy way around zones and now its all 5 out spacing and cutting, no traditional bigs, a premium on 3 point shooting and its easier to get into the paint all of a sudden. You don't see a ton of zone played anymore, likely because of subsequent rule changes. I'll stay out of saying which ones so youngsters can still feel like their generation is amazingly better.

[Sark]

Here was the "proof" that the defenses that Kobe fans used to use to say that he faced harder defenses than Jordan.

Watch on YouTube

Here is the response.

Watch on YouTube

[Ugly Duckling]

Haha this video shows the entire defense collapsing around MJ to no avail