#6 Best Defensive Small Forward of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones
7. Jerry Sloan
8. Joe Dumars
9. Danny Green
10. Don Chaney

Small Forwards:


1. Scottie Pippen
2. Ron Artest
3. Lebron James
4. Andre Iguodala
5. Shane Battier


And this is where it started
Idea


THE CANDIDATES

Tom Sanders (1961-73) Celtics
John Havlicek (1963-1978) Celtics
Joe Caldwell (1965-1975) Pistons, St.Louis Hawks, Atlanta Hawks, Carolina Cougars, Spirits of St.Louis
Willie Wise (1970-78) Los Angeles Stars, Utah Stars, Virginia Squires, Denver Nuggets, Seattle
Bob Dandridge (1970-82) Bucks, Bullets
Julius Erving (1972-87) Virginia Squires, New York Nets, 76ers
Jamaal Wilkes (1975-86) Warriors, Lakers, Clippers
Bill Hanzlik (1981-90) Seattle, Nuggets
Paul Pressey (1983-93) Bucks, Spurs, Warriors
Rodney McCray (1984-93) Houston, Sacramento, Dallas, Bulls
Derrick McKey (1988-2002) Seattle, Indiana, 76ers
Rick Fox (1992-04) Celtics, Lakers
George Lynch (1994-05) Lakers, Vancouver Grizzlies, 76ers, Hornets
Grant Hill (1995-13) Detroit, Magic, Suns, Clippers
Bruce Bowen (1997-2009) Heat, Celtics, 76ers, Spurs
Posey (2000-11) Nuggets, Rockets, Grizzlies, Heat, Boston, Hornets, Pacers
Marion (2000-15) Suns, Heat, Toronto, Dallas, Cleveland
Stephen Jackson (2001-14) Nets, Spurs, Hawks, Pacers, Warriors, Charlotte, Bucks, Spurs, Clippers
Andrei Kirilenko (2002-15) Jazz, Minnesota, Nets
Gerald Wallace (2002-15) Sacramento, Charlotte, Blazers, Nets, Celtics
Tayshaun Prince (2003-16) Detroit, Grizzlies, Celtics, Minnesota
Luol Deng (2005-19+) Bulls, Cavaliers, Heat, Lakers, Minnesota
Paul George (2011-19+) Pacers, OKC
Kawhi Leonard (2012-19+) Spurs, Raptors
Robert Covington (2014-19+) 76ers




Hi guys

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[Gibson22]

I think that those are the last 5 (no order) kawhi, andrei, marion, bruce, havlicek

[kendogg]

I'm sticking with Hondo

[trex_8063]

I think that those are the last 5 (no order) kawhi, andrei, marion, bruce, havlicek

I more or less agree, though I might sub in Luol Deng for Kirilenko.

[pandrade83]

I'll stick with John "Hondo" Havlicek per prior reasoning.

[Dr Positivity]

I'll make the case for Luol Deng here

- One of the best RAPM or +/- candidates left. He has DRAPM seasons of 3.9 (2011), 2.7 (2013), 2.2 (2007), 1.9 (2010), 1.8 (2006), 1.7 (2009), and 2 in the NPI 2012 year, and his 02-11 DRAPM is tied with Battier (1.8). He contributed to great defensive teams in his prime as both the Skiles and Thibodeau teams at one point had the 1st ranked DRTG and some other very good seasons. He was always a favorite of advanced stats community and some +/- enthusiasts wondered in 2011 whether Deng was more valuable than the MVP Rose as Deng was the one in top 10 in RAPM. The Bulls went on to overperform in 2012 with 55 W pace without Rose and 45 and 48 wins the next two seasons anchored by Deng and Noah.

- He has quality physical tools at one of the biggest SFs in the league at long 6'9 and great strength and his play at PF in Miami late in his career suggests he may be a small ball 4 if he came out now. His basketball IQ and motor is high. I would take him over a player like Paul George for example because Is feel like his personality, toughness and intelligence is just higher. He had to have expended some of the most energy in the league as he was part of Thibs culture of playing regular season games at playoff intensity and was the original wing Thibs runs into the ground for 39mpg

- Longevity friendly candidate compared to a player like Kawhi as his defensive impact stats are good by his 2nd year (2006) and he has a good 8.5 years from there with the Bulls, not sure about his impact after that especially playing PF with the Heat, but he is a responsible vet in those years

My impression at the time was Deng and Iguodala were in the same camp up until 2012. Both were in the same draft, peaked as scorers earlier in their careers, then had their PPG drop but had arguably their best defensive seasons in early 2010s and made their all-star team in 2012. They were kind of grouped together as your signature advanced stats friendly two way wings that help you win, Gerald Wallace to an extent as well though he was probably the worst of the three. Now in retrospect Deng's offense was probably worse than Iguodala's in late 00s because his midrange shooting is less valuable than Iggy's athleticism and passing, and Iguodala ended up having better career as from 2014 on his career is miles and away better than Deng's. Nonetheless defensively Deng has a good case to be up there with Iguodala if he didn't have the Warriors years

Vote Luol Deng

[penbeast0]

I will vote for Bruce Bowen. Yes he was dirty but since the refs allowed it, it's as much a part of his effectiveness as LeBron's "crab dribble" or superstar calls for the offensive greats. Much longer career than Kawhi, Havlicek also a good choice, not feeling Deng until Bowen and Havlicek are in at the very least. Just never felt Deng was more than a "good" defender, not a great one.

[Luigi]

I think Bowen, Leonard, and Kirilenko are a cut above Iguodala and Battier.

[Samurai]

Repeating my vote for Bruce Bowen.

[cecilthesheep]

Y'all have very different priorities than me. I'm voting for Bruce Bowen but I reserve the right to change it to Kawhi if his case starts to gather steam.

[iggymcfrack]

Gotta go with Luol Deng. I intuitively feel like his peak's a tiny bit behind Kirilenko even though the numbers are slightly better, but when you include longevity, I think he has to be better. His meaningful defensive minutes are 2-3x as high as Kawhi's and the peak's in the same neighborhood at least so I have to have him ahead of him too. Havlicek's another player I'd consider now, but I feel like if he has slightly worse estimated advanced stats and plays in the weaker era, I can't quite take him yet either. Bowen strikes me as overrated. Short peak, wasn't really seen as an elite defender until he went to the Spurs late in his career alongside Pop and elite centers, and still has the weakest analytics of the bunch.

[Gibson22]

I'm voting for havlicek, then kawhi

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Battier and Bowen were smart defenders and had good body control but their raw athleticism wasn't all that impressive.

I think Kawai's peak is better. To me better is better. I would rather compare everybody's peak seaon than compare longevity. To me longevity should be it's own category of greatness rather than a part of other categories of greatness. The best defender is the best defender. The best scorer is the best scorer. The best rebounder or passer is the best rebounder or passer. The best longevity is the best longevity but longevity does not make players better at their best skills.

I like Kawhi's combination of raw athleticism and defensive intelligence and defensive intensity more than I like the guys who had marginally better defensive intelligence but lessor raw athleticism. This probably applies more to Battier than Bowen. I really can't remember how athletic younger Bowen was. Even as a rookie Battier did not have the quickness to go with his other skills. Draymond Green would not be quick either if Draymond was a small forward.

I forgot about Paul Pressey. I think I also take Pressey over Bowen. Then there all the tall guys. Bobby Jones, Kirilenko, Prince, Deng.
I think Kirilenko is better than Deng and Prince at least as a help defender. I am not sure about Kirilenko's man to man defense.

Did we decide that Bobby Jones was a power forward? Are we holding Bobby Jones's stamina problem against him?

Vote Kawhi

Run off vote: Havlicek over Bowen. Bowen over Deng

[Ainosterhaspie]

I'm going with Havlicek. I don't have anything to add, beyond the arguments put forward so far by others. He has the longevity and was tops for his era for a long time.

I think Kawhi will be next for me, but I'll have to take a closer look at the arguments for Bowen, Deng and Kirlinko before I decide for sure.

[trex_8063]

Don't know who I want to go with. Intuitive (based on eye-test) feel is that Deng's best years were not quite as good as the best defensive years of Iggy, Battier, Kawhi, Kirilenko, and perhaps Bowen, even though DRAPM suggests otherwise (well, for everyone other than Battier anyway)--->see the data I'd presented in the last thread for reference (I'll try to repost it here later).

I wouldn't say I've been blown away by what I see defensively when I watch John Havlicek. However, he's certainly got the clout in terms of accolades/recognition from media and peers, and there's definitely a longevity/consistency factor to consider with him: he played a monstrous 46k+ minutes (far and away more than anyone else on the table), and by most accounts he was never in all that time a below average defender. So if he was even occasionally WELL above average, that would certainly put him in the mix.

I don't see Bruce Bowen as better than guys like Iggy or Battier (or even Deng), personally, despite his much greater recognition with the media. Maybe his "dirty" tactics simply got him more notice, idk; but I truly don't think he was any better (and DRAPM certainly backs that up; indeed, it doesn't rate him quite as good, in fact).

Kawhi simply doesn't have enough years of good defense for me; so I'll not be supporting him just yet, though I'll set I get why other people are. Kawhi's on-court defensive impact (based on DRAPM) over his best three defensive seasons ['14-'16] is probably beyond anyone else left on the table; though how often he's on the court relative to others is where we could quibble: he missed 10 or more games in EACH of those three seasons (missing 44 total in three years), and also only averaged 31.4 mpg collectively in those years. So is that as valuable as what, for example, Deng did in his best three years (Deng barely missing any games and averaging like 37+ mpg)? idk, I leave that to each of you.
I've always been more longevity/consistency-driven than most, though.

So it's between Havlicek, Deng, or maybe Bruce Bowen for me.


I really don't feel strongly, but I'd like to have a pick in before the deadline. Eenie, meenie, minie, mo......I'm just gonna go with my gut and pick John Havlicek. I'm throwing a little bit of added faith toward accolades and reputation here, simply because we have less by way of solid indicators to look at.

[Gibson22]

Hi guys

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[Gibson22]

Havlicek won