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Poll: Sabonis for Brown

Moderators: pacers33granger, boomershadow, Grang33r, Jake0890, pacerfan

Who wins the Trade?

Poll ended at Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:58 am

Pacers Win
3
10%
Boston Win
22
73%
Both
5
17%
 
Total votes: 30

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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#21 » by shi-woo » Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:40 pm

This is one of those trades that makes too much sense that you know it will never happen.

Both are solid young players about to get paid, and both are in similar situations where their teams construction limits their effectiveness and counting stats.

Brown in Indy would probably average around 18-5 and give you a few highlight plays a game. Sabonis in Boston would average 14-10 and would be praised for his high IQ.

The value is fair, but as a Celtics fan I acknowledge that we are the team with the greater need, and would have to give more. Brown, Bucks FRP, and a protected first that turns into 2 second rounders would be the most I would stomach. And that's knowing you're 100% loosing the trade.

Don't think Pacers are going in that direction though

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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#22 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:03 pm

shi-woo wrote:This is one of those trades that makes too much sense that you know it will never happen.

Both are solid young players about to get paid, and both are in similar situations where their teams construction limits their effectiveness and counting stats.

Brown in Indy would probably average around 18-5 and give you a few highlight plays a game. Sabonis in Boston would average 14-10 and would be praised for his high IQ.

The value is fair, but as a Celtics fan I acknowledge that we are the team with the greater need, and would have to give more. Brown, Bucks FRP, and a protected first that turns into 2 second rounders would be the most I would stomach. And that's knowing you're 100% loosing the trade.

Don't think Pacers are going in that direction though

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Dom already puts up 14/9 in 25 minutes a night in Indy. One would think in a starting position he could net 20/12 or so. With terrific passing in the pivot/post.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#23 » by PTA » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:26 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:
I don't care. If you want my guy your gonna have to pay up! Why should I give you a dollar for a dollar?

Also all this yapping about the Pacers glut of bigs, how about the number of 2/3's that the celtics have. I'm not really into helping some other team balance their roster.


Love ya wacko but glad you aren’t our GM. We’d never make a trade! Lol



I'd make a trade if the deal makes our team better. But sometimes the best trade is the one you don't make.
Boston isn't interested in making fair trades. Their brand of trading leaves a bad taste. Brown for Goga maybe.

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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#24 » by reflex35 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:30 am

This would be a fair trade and would work for both organisations and players.
Pacers gave Myles 80 mil contract and now have Goga. It would be fair that Sabas get's more or less the same, but I am not sure that it is going to happen. Probably not as Myles and Domas don't work together.
Sabas value at the moment is high and even though I am Domas fan I think Pacers should trade him for a promising wing player.
Brown is one option. I would have offered HEAT Sabas for Josh Richardson but now he is in Philly.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#25 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:04 pm

reflex35 wrote:This would be a fair trade and would work for both organisations and players.
Pacers gave Myles 80 mil contract and now have Goga. It would be fair that Sabas get's more or less the same, but I am not sure that it is going to happen. Probably not as Myles and Domas don't work together.
Sabas value at the moment is high and even though I am Domas fan I think Pacers should trade him for a promising wing player.
Brown is one option. I would have offered HEAT Sabas for Josh Richardson but now he is in Philly.


Myles only got $70m guaranteed, with the ability to earn up to $72m total based on incentives such as All-Defense and All-NBA.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#26 » by reflex35 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:20 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
reflex35 wrote:This would be a fair trade and would work for both organisations and players.
Pacers gave Myles 80 mil contract and now have Goga. It would be fair that Sabas get's more or less the same, but I am not sure that it is going to happen. Probably not as Myles and Domas don't work together.
Sabas value at the moment is high and even though I am Domas fan I think Pacers should trade him for a promising wing player.
Brown is one option. I would have offered HEAT Sabas for Josh Richardson but now he is in Philly.


Myles only got $70m guaranteed, with the ability to earn up to $72m total based on incentives such as All-Defense and All-NBA.


That's fine. This trade still makes sense.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#27 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:21 pm

reflex35 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
reflex35 wrote:This would be a fair trade and would work for both organisations and players.
Pacers gave Myles 80 mil contract and now have Goga. It would be fair that Sabas get's more or less the same, but I am not sure that it is going to happen. Probably not as Myles and Domas don't work together.
Sabas value at the moment is high and even though I am Domas fan I think Pacers should trade him for a promising wing player.
Brown is one option. I would have offered HEAT Sabas for Josh Richardson but now he is in Philly.


Myles only got $70m guaranteed, with the ability to earn up to $72m total based on incentives such as All-Defense and All-NBA.


That's fine. This trade still makes sense.


Leaves us super duper heavy on the wings and super duper weak at the bigs. Who plays the 4? Does this mean that TJ Leaf and Goga are guaranteed 30+ minutes every night from game 1? While Brogdon, Oladipo, Warren, Lamb, McDermott, Holiday, Brown, and McConnell all split the 144 minutes at the 1-3 spots?

I think a Brown/Sabonis swap had merit, but not after we added Brogdon, Lamb, and Warren to the roster. At this point, it actually takes a slightly weak spot (bigs) and makes it much weaker, while overloading the wings. Also, Brown has the same issue of needing a contract extension at the same time as Sabonis. If Goga is a reason to move Sabonis already, wouldn't Brogdon, Oladipo, Lamb, Warren, etc, all be reasons not to add Brown?
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#28 » by reflex35 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:50 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
reflex35 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Myles only got $70m guaranteed, with the ability to earn up to $72m total based on incentives such as All-Defense and All-NBA.


That's fine. This trade still makes sense.


Leaves us super duper heavy on the wings and super duper weak at the bigs. Who plays the 4? Does this mean that TJ Leaf and Goga are guaranteed 30+ minutes every night from game 1? While Brogdon, Oladipo, Warren, Lamb, McDermott, Holiday, Brown, and McConnell all split the 144 minutes at the 1-3 spots?

I think a Brown/Sabonis swap had merit, but not after we added Brogdon, Lamb, and Warren to the roster. At this point, it actually takes a slightly weak spot (bigs) and makes it much weaker, while overloading the wings. Also, Brown has the same issue of needing a contract extension at the same time as Sabonis. If Goga is a reason to move Sabonis already, wouldn't Brogdon, Oladipo, Lamb, Warren, etc, all be reasons not to add Brown?



Well, first of all wings who can handle the ball, shoot and dribble and penetrate in today's ball are 60-70% of the rooster construction. Heavy or not heavy, that's where everything is going.

All the guys - Brogdon, Lamb, Warren are great and basically can play from 1 to 3.
Jaylen is great all around guy and a better defender but not such a great scorer so he would a great addition to this backcourt/wings unit.

What you're telling me is that having Dipo, Brogdon, Lamb, Warren, Jaylen (basically 5 guys) who can interchange from 1 to 3 is a lot? Is it really? Just think about it....

I do agree that something will have to be done to improve bigs rotation. You do have an argument there.

With all in mind I am still a strong believer that you use the asset and trade it when it's at a highest-peak value. At the moment Sabas is.

We can argue that Pacers should check if Myles and Domas work before doing any moves, but this as well posses huge risks..
If it does not work and Domas or Myles stats drop their value decreases. At such a young age that's a bad thing. Fair or not but it's like with the stocks market - nobody cares about the fundamentals of the company (profits, P/E, dividends) no more and everyone looks at the growth potential and that's where you make money....
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#29 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:34 pm

reflex35 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
reflex35 wrote:
That's fine. This trade still makes sense.


Leaves us super duper heavy on the wings and super duper weak at the bigs. Who plays the 4? Does this mean that TJ Leaf and Goga are guaranteed 30+ minutes every night from game 1? While Brogdon, Oladipo, Warren, Lamb, McDermott, Holiday, Brown, and McConnell all split the 144 minutes at the 1-3 spots?

I think a Brown/Sabonis swap had merit, but not after we added Brogdon, Lamb, and Warren to the roster. At this point, it actually takes a slightly weak spot (bigs) and makes it much weaker, while overloading the wings. Also, Brown has the same issue of needing a contract extension at the same time as Sabonis. If Goga is a reason to move Sabonis already, wouldn't Brogdon, Oladipo, Lamb, Warren, etc, all be reasons not to add Brown?



Well, first of all wings who can handle the ball, shoot and dribble and penetrate in today's ball are 60-70% of the rooster construction. Heavy or not heavy, that's where everything is going.

All the guys - Brogdon, Lamb, Warren are great and basically can play from 1 to 3.
Jaylen is great all around guy and a better defender but not such a great scorer so he would a great addition to this backcourt/wings unit.

What you're telling me is that having Dipo, Brogdon, Lamb, Warren, Jaylen (basically 5 guys) who can interchange from 1 to 3 is a lot? Is it really? Just think about it....

I do agree that something will have to be done to improve bigs rotation. You do have an argument there.

With all in mind I am still a strong believer that you use the asset and trade it when it's at a highest-peak value. At the moment Sabas is.

We can argue that Pacers should check if Myles and Domas work before doing any moves, but this as well posses huge risks..
If it does not work and Domas or Myles stats drop their value decreases. At such a young age that's a bad thing. Fair or not but it's like with the stocks market - nobody cares about the fundamentals of the company (profits, P/E, dividends) no more and everyone looks at the growth potential and that's where you make money....


No, 5 isn’t “too much” but 4 is pretty darned good when you have Holiday, McDermott, Sumner, and McConnell, and by adding the 5th, you’re either starting Goga/Myles or Leaf/Myles. Teams need bigs. I don’t think we’re going to be the team that goes 4 wings and a big with no PG either.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#30 » by Wizop » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:16 am

If playing together doesn't work, it shouldn't lessen either's trade value. It'd just mean both are 5s and could be traded to teams weak at 5. But I think it'll work if the coaches are creative. They've had lots of time to think about it. The players also have a summer to work on the skills needed to make it work.

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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#31 » by Topofthekey » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:03 am

"Use the asset and trade it when it's at a highest peak value"

Going by that philosophy, we should have trade Vic last season before he got injured
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#32 » by reflex35 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:40 pm

Topofthekey wrote:"Use the asset and trade it when it's at a highest peak value"

Going by that philosophy, we should have trade Vic last season before he got injured



Which might be true. But nobody knew that he will be injured (Yes, of-course that's always a risk) and he made such an improvement a year before that you could see and argue that he still had the upside for the next year. But that did not happen and in reality he was not having a better year (it was worser)

Now hard to tell. Serious injury - hopefully he can be at least what he was. or 90 % of that.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#33 » by Tom White » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:38 pm

Topofthekey wrote:"Use the asset and trade it when it's at a highest peak value"

Going by that philosophy, we should have trade Vic last season before he got injured


Yeah, that "trade a player at his peak" stuff is an awful idea. Can you imagine if the Bulls would have followed that line of thought with Jordan? Or the Lakers with Magic? Or the Pacers with Reggie?????? I can just picture the angry mobs with tar and feathers and pitchforks at the ready. :lol: Trading a player at his peak is just not a good way to do things. Having a player at his peak is the reason you want to keep him!
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#34 » by reflex35 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:49 pm

Tom White wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:"Use the asset and trade it when it's at a highest peak value"

Going by that philosophy, we should have trade Vic last season before he got injured


Yeah, that "trade a player at his peak" stuff is an awful idea. Can you imagine if the Bulls would have followed that line of thought with Jordan? Or the Lakers with Magic? Or the Pacers with Reggie?????? I can just picture the angry mobs with tar and feathers and pitchforks at the ready. :lol: Trading a player at his peak is just not a good way to do things. Having a player at his peak is the reason you want to keep him!


Let's not go to the extremes...
Are you really giving examples of MJ and Magic to prove the point that it's such a bad idea to trade guys at their peak value?
It's not that we even talk about trading all-stars, or trading superstars - let alone you dare to bring TOP - 5 of all time in this conversation :) MJ averaged what in his first season - 27? 28? And Magic did what - had probably 16-18 points and 7-8 rebounds/assists during his first year...?
And you are trying to prove a point when these are once in a lifetime players and we are talking about trading Sabas and Jaylen?

ok - if so - you are right.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#35 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:25 pm

reflex35 wrote:
Tom White wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:"Use the asset and trade it when it's at a highest peak value"

Going by that philosophy, we should have trade Vic last season before he got injured


Yeah, that "trade a player at his peak" stuff is an awful idea. Can you imagine if the Bulls would have followed that line of thought with Jordan? Or the Lakers with Magic? Or the Pacers with Reggie?????? I can just picture the angry mobs with tar and feathers and pitchforks at the ready. :lol: Trading a player at his peak is just not a good way to do things. Having a player at his peak is the reason you want to keep him!


Let's not go to the extremes...
Are you really giving examples of MJ and Magic to prove the point that it's such a bad idea to trade guys at their peak value?
It's not that we even talk about trading all-stars, or trading superstars - let alone you dare to bring TOP - 5 of all time in this conversation :) MJ averaged what in his first season - 27? 28? And Magic did what - had probably 16-18 points and 7-8 rebounds/assists during his first year...?
And you are trying to prove a point when these are once in a lifetime players and we are talking about trading Sabas and Jaylen?

ok - if so - you are right.


I think the point he's trying to make, and he specifically stated at the end of his post is that you draft, sign, and trade for players in order to yield the benefits of playing them in their primes for your team. If your goal is simply to trade them at the height of their value, you'll have gone through all the growing pains and yielded none of the benefits of their primes.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#36 » by reflex35 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:36 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
reflex35 wrote:
Tom White wrote:
Yeah, that "trade a player at his peak" stuff is an awful idea. Can you imagine if the Bulls would have followed that line of thought with Jordan? Or the Lakers with Magic? Or the Pacers with Reggie?????? I can just picture the angry mobs with tar and feathers and pitchforks at the ready. :lol: Trading a player at his peak is just not a good way to do things. Having a player at his peak is the reason you want to keep him!


Let's not go to the extremes...
Are you really giving examples of MJ and Magic to prove the point that it's such a bad idea to trade guys at their peak value?
It's not that we even talk about trading all-stars, or trading superstars - let alone you dare to bring TOP - 5 of all time in this conversation :) MJ averaged what in his first season - 27? 28? And Magic did what - had probably 16-18 points and 7-8 rebounds/assists during his first year...?
And you are trying to prove a point when these are once in a lifetime players and we are talking about trading Sabas and Jaylen?

ok - if so - you are right.


I think the point he's trying to make, and he specifically stated at the end of his post is that you draft, sign, and trade for players in order to yield the benefits of playing them in their primes for your team. If your goal is simply to trade them at the height of their value, you'll have gone through all the growing pains and yielded none of the benefits of their primes.


I understand his point and would agree with you if you want to be in a middle of a pack and your goal is to built a team for 1st or 2nd round exit in playoffs.
Neither Jaylen or Domas can be or will be (that is just a guess - because I might be proven wrong) guys who will bring the title to Boston or any other team for that matter. Let's just be real on this and take a realistic approach and not the one when we believe that a guy will take a magic LEAP to stardom in his 4th year.

In reality you do as Ainge was doing and is doing.
I might not be right but GM was doing exactly that - shopping Brown without any guilt. He was holding on Tatum...

So in order to get a title you still need superstars and in order to get them you have to have picks and other valuable pieces.
It did not work out with Kyrie, but Jaylen is exactly that piece which is a really nice player but needs to be used as an asset when needed.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#37 » by reflex35 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:53 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
reflex35 wrote:
Tom White wrote:
Yeah, that "trade a player at his peak" stuff is an awful idea. Can you imagine if the Bulls would have followed that line of thought with Jordan? Or the Lakers with Magic? Or the Pacers with Reggie?????? I can just picture the angry mobs with tar and feathers and pitchforks at the ready. :lol: Trading a player at his peak is just not a good way to do things. Having a player at his peak is the reason you want to keep him!


Let's not go to the extremes...
Are you really giving examples of MJ and Magic to prove the point that it's such a bad idea to trade guys at their peak value?
It's not that we even talk about trading all-stars, or trading superstars - let alone you dare to bring TOP - 5 of all time in this conversation :) MJ averaged what in his first season - 27? 28? And Magic did what - had probably 16-18 points and 7-8 rebounds/assists during his first year...?
And you are trying to prove a point when these are once in a lifetime players and we are talking about trading Sabas and Jaylen?

ok - if so - you are right.


I think the point he's trying to make, and he specifically stated at the end of his post is that you draft, sign, and trade for players in order to yield the benefits of playing them in their primes for your team. If your goal is simply to trade them at the height of their value, you'll have gone through all the growing pains and yielded none of the benefits of their primes.


And a bit more to add... If we are so sure that Jaylen is such a great player and has such a huge upside why did NOBODY took him in a package for AD, Kawhi, etc...?? (without getting Tatum ...)
It might be the case that Lakers gave a better package, but the reality is that probably a lot of GM's around the league don't believe that he is so valuable.
And yes ofcourse Kyrie wanted out, AD did not want to be here and commit, but I think we are fooling ourselves a bit of what Jaylen really is...
He has worth and is a real piece of this team for the moment, but at the same time he is just an asset to be traded when his value is highest.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#38 » by reflex35 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:57 pm

reflex35 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
reflex35 wrote:
Let's not go to the extremes...
Are you really giving examples of MJ and Magic to prove the point that it's such a bad idea to trade guys at their peak value?
It's not that we even talk about trading all-stars, or trading superstars - let alone you dare to bring TOP - 5 of all time in this conversation :) MJ averaged what in his first season - 27? 28? And Magic did what - had probably 16-18 points and 7-8 rebounds/assists during his first year...?
And you are trying to prove a point when these are once in a lifetime players and we are talking about trading Sabas and Jaylen?

ok - if so - you are right.


I think the point he's trying to make, and he specifically stated at the end of his post is that you draft, sign, and trade for players in order to yield the benefits of playing them in their primes for your team. If your goal is simply to trade them at the height of their value, you'll have gone through all the growing pains and yielded none of the benefits of their primes.


And a bit more to add... If we are so sure that Jaylen is such a great player and has such a huge upside why did NOBODY took him in a package for AD, Kawhi, etc...?? (without getting Tatum ...)
It might be the case that Lakers gave a better package, but the reality is that probably a lot of GM's around the league don't believe that he is so valuable.
And yes ofcourse Kyrie wanted out, AD did not want to be here and commit, but I think we are fooling ourselves a bit of what Jaylen really is...
He has worth and is a real piece of this team for the moment, but at the same time he is just an asset to be traded when his value is highest.



The same goes for Domas. And Pacers are not as aggressive as Boston and a lot more committed for their players . It's just that with Jaylen it's a better example to explain a point as we've seen it before our own eyes.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#39 » by Tom White » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:56 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:I think the point he's trying to make, and he specifically stated at the end of his post is that you draft, sign, and trade for players in order to yield the benefits of playing them in their primes for your team. If your goal is simply to trade them at the height of their value, you'll have gone through all the growing pains and yielded none of the benefits of their primes.


In a word? Yep.
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Re: Poll: Sabonis for Brown 

Post#40 » by Topofthekey » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:25 pm

Another way of looking at this is, is the perceived upgrade from Warren to Brown worth the downgrade from Domas to... Leaf?

Or whichever PF I'm assuming we'll be flipping Warren for

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