Kawhis supporrting cast and toughest competition

[Marty_Budda]

2 MVP level versatile players who can score anywhere on the court. Both clutch, both elite scorers. Between the two of them they are the 2 best wing defenders in the NBA outside of Giannis. PG was nominated as DPOY candidate this season, Kawhi has won it twice. Pat Beverly is one of the best wing defenders in the league, also shoots the 3 well. Lou Will is 2 time 6th man of the year... can dominate defenses all by himself and score from anywhere on the court. Harrell is a junkyard dog of a beast who is likely to continue improving over the next couple of years. Solid roll players, great shooters, elite defense , elite stars...

I don't know man... I think this team is built to cake walk their way to multiple championships.
I could never say it yet as they haven't even played a single game, but on paper... I'd argue they're as good as peak Warriors. I don't think people have really considered in detail what this roster is made of.

I mean I don’t really disagree with you which is why I’m saying that they should be favorites. But close to peak warriors.... come on dude. Warriors had two of the GOAT shooters, 2nd best player in the world, arguably the best defensive player in the world and solid pieces around them.

Clippers have Kawhi (top 3 player) PG (top 10 player) and a bunch of solid pieces. Beverley is a good perimeter defender but really poor offensive player. You’d think the way some people talk about him that he’s Gary Payton - the man averaged 7 ppg last season lol. Then you have Lou Williams who is good when he’s hot but he could just as easily shoot you out of a game and plays 0 defense. And Harrell is just an energy guy that’s good but nothing too crazy. Same with the rest of the roster.

Also nobody wants to talk about it but Clippers are one PG13 or Kawhi injury from shambles land. Now you could say that about most teams and their best players but I don’t trust either of their health.

Beverly is not a bad offensive player. Low scoring volume doesn't equal bad offensive player. The guy takes a lot of threes and makes them at a good percentage and has a high assist to turnover ratio. Nobody is going to confuse him with an elite offensive player, but he's also not a bad offensive player.

Also, Lou Williams is objectively a good offensive player that doesn't need any qualifiers about having bad shooting nights. That is capable of happening to anybody, and isn't exclusively a lou williams deal. His defense is bad and is his major downfall.

I’ll give you the Beverley point - he can shoot the 3 when left wide open and is an ok passer I guess (average for a pg).

But my Lou willians point still stands. When you play bad defense and have a bad shooting night you’re useless. So yeah bad shooting nights can happen to anybody but almost nobody is as bad a defender as Lou Williams. Trust me as a raptor fan I would know.

[tyguy]

I mean I don’t really disagree with you which is why I’m saying that they should be favorites. But close to peak warriors.... come on dude. Warriors had two of the GOAT shooters, 2nd best player in the world, arguably the best defensive player in the world and solid pieces around them.

Clippers have Kawhi (top 3 player) PG (top 10 player) and a bunch of solid pieces. Beverley is a good perimeter defender but really poor offensive player. You’d think the way some people talk about him that he’s Gary Payton - the man averaged 7 ppg last season lol. Then you have Lou Williams who is good when he’s hot but he could just as easily shoot you out of a game and plays 0 defense. And Harrell is just an energy guy that’s good but nothing too crazy. Same with the rest of the roster.

Also nobody wants to talk about it but Clippers are one PG13 or Kawhi injury from shambles land. Now you could say that about most teams and their best players but I don’t trust either of their health.

Beverly is not a bad offensive player. Low scoring volume doesn't equal bad offensive player. The guy takes a lot of threes and makes them at a good percentage and has a high assist to turnover ratio. Nobody is going to confuse him with an elite offensive player, but he's also not a bad offensive player.

Also, Lou Williams is objectively a good offensive player that doesn't need any qualifiers about having bad shooting nights. That is capable of happening to anybody, and isn't exclusively a lou williams deal. His defense is bad and is his major downfall.

I’ll give you the Beverley point - he can shoot the 3 when left wide open and is an ok passer I guess (average for a pg).

But my Lou willians point still stands. When you play bad defense and have a bad shooting night you’re useless. So yeah bad shooting nights can happen to anybody but almost nobody is as bad a defender as Lou Williams. Trust me as a raptor fan I would know.

That criticism applies to most point guards though, even most elite ones. Cury, Dame, Kyrie.. On very bad shooting nights they are probably hurting you more than helping because of their negative defense.

[Marty_Budda]

Beverly is not a bad offensive player. Low scoring volume doesn't equal bad offensive player. The guy takes a lot of threes and makes them at a good percentage and has a high assist to turnover ratio. Nobody is going to confuse him with an elite offensive player, but he's also not a bad offensive player.

Also, Lou Williams is objectively a good offensive player that doesn't need any qualifiers about having bad shooting nights. That is capable of happening to anybody, and isn't exclusively a lou williams deal. His defense is bad and is his major downfall.

I’ll give you the Beverley point - he can shoot the 3 when left wide open and is an ok passer I guess (average for a pg).

But my Lou willians point still stands. When you play bad defense and have a bad shooting night you’re useless. So yeah bad shooting nights can happen to anybody but almost nobody is as bad a defender as Lou Williams. Trust me as a raptor fan I would know.

That criticism applies to most point guards though, even most elite ones. Cury, Dame, Kyrie.. On very bad shooting nights they are probably hurting you more than helping because of their negative defense.

Ok first of all let’s not mistake Lou Williams level defense with Steph and Lillard defense. I actually think Steph isn’t even a bad defender tbh - he gets a really bad rep for some reason.

Second of all, all of those guys are more efficient scorers than Lou Williams so they actually go cold far less that he does.

Third, they’re all much better passers and floor generals than Lou.

So all those guys can stay on the court and give you different things. Whereas Lou willians is literally just a scorer at okay efficiency and that’s it. He’s below average at basically everything else

[WarriorGM]

I was always impressed by the players on the Raptors. They had proven veterans. As a Canadian team they were consistently underrated by American media pundits. I don't think the Clippers are as good and as an American team in L.A. are predictably being overrated by the U.S. media. Paul George is supposedly MVP caliber but hasn't really proven anything. Despite playing with Westbrook, Lillard sent them both home. Lillard. Paul George is fool's gold until proven otherwise. I think the Lakers are a more serious threat in the West.

[bootsythornton]

Who the F on the clippers guards Anthony Davis and Boogie. Yes the clippers have wing defence, but inside they will be torched.

[Forte IV]

Who the F on the clippers guards Anthony Davis and Boogie. Yes the clippers have wing defence, but inside they will be torched.

I'm too lazy to post the stats but stats from last year show they'll be fine. Trez held him to under 40%, JaMyke was solid. They'll be okay.

[tyguy]

I’ll give you the Beverley point - he can shoot the 3 when left wide open and is an ok passer I guess (average for a pg).

But my Lou willians point still stands. When you play bad defense and have a bad shooting night you’re useless. So yeah bad shooting nights can happen to anybody but almost nobody is as bad a defender as Lou Williams. Trust me as a raptor fan I would know.

That criticism applies to most point guards though, even most elite ones. Cury, Dame, Kyrie.. On very bad shooting nights they are probably hurting you more than helping because of their negative defense.

Ok first of all let’s not mistake Lou Williams level defense with Steph and Lillard defense. I actually think Steph isn’t even a bad defender tbh - he gets a really bad rep for some reason.

Second of all, all of those guys are more efficient scorers than Lou Williams so they actually go cold far less that he does.

Third, they’re all much better passers and floor generals than Lou.

So all those guys can stay on the court and give you different things. Whereas Lou Williams is literally just a scorer at okay efficiency and that’s it. He’s below average at basically everything else

I didn't say their defense was as bad, only that the criticism of "if they aren't making shots, they are hurting you" applies to most small guards(6'3" and under) and it's not unique to Williams.

Small guards make their impact on offense the vast majority of the time, so if they have a night where they are putrid from the field they are generally hurting you. It's not exclusive to Lou Williams. I also think you are underrating Lou's play making ability. He had an assist % of 33 this season(higher than curry and dame) with an assist to turnover ratio of over 2:1. He's not this non play-maker you are making him out to be.

[Clay Davis]

lmao what is this?

Montrezl = SIakam
Lou Will > Lowry
Zubac <<< Marc Gasol
PG >>>> Danny Green
Beverley > FVV
JaMychal Green > Ibaka

where do you see any advantage aside from Marc Gasol ?

Siakam is more versatile offensively than Harrell so the stats won't express every difference between the two. Siakam is also more versatile defensively (but isn't perfect). It's not really a fair comparison to put the two side-by-side... it's like comparing Kenneth Faried to Draymond Green.

Lotsa respect to Lou Will but... he was Lowry's back-up for a good reason. He excels as a sixth-man and looks like a better scorer most nights but he doesn't do the other things a PG should do at as high a level as Lowry. I think he'll adjust to fewer iso attempts but he's not even as close to being as good of a defender or floor general as Lowry (which is important when you're running sets to get George/Leonard in good offensive situations).

Raptors also had Norman Powell coming off the bench, who stepped up at times.

[SK21209]

Who the F on the clippers guards Anthony Davis and Boogie. Yes the clippers have wing defence, but inside they will be torched.

I'm too lazy to post the stats but stats from last year show they'll be fine. Trez held him to under 40%, JaMyke was solid. They'll be okay.

Obviously Davis is a huge problem for any team but I really do not understand why Boogie keeps getting mentioned as an example of why the Clippers will be too small. There is a reason why the guy just signed for $3 million a year when half the league had cap room, he just isn't very good right now. People lost their minds when he had 11 and 10 in Game 2. It's unfortunate because I really liked him as a player but Boogie is not going to "torch" anyone.

[Anticon]

Said this in another thread, but the Raps has guys in the top 10 of rpm at every starting position. Most of whom had finals or conference finals experience.

Clippers have an interesting roster of underrated guys that have formed together, but they will have to prove they’re on that level.

Marc Gasol was no joke, Green was the best 3pt shooter from certain spots in the league, and Lowry is arguably a top two or three two way PG who could change plays with charges, and Siakam was very versatile defensively with some solid offensive nights.

Next year we may be talking about how well these guys performed but they have a lot to prove.

[Joker]

Is Lou Will a reliable playoff performer? I see he put up 21 ppg in the playoffs this year, but his career playoff numbers are pretty bad in terms of shooting percentages.

[robdog_5]

First of all i dont even understand the matchups.

Starting lineups
C Gasol vs Zubac =Gasol
PF Siakam vs Green= Siakam big
SG Green vs George= George big big
PG Lowry vs. Beverly= Lowry

Bench
Big Ibaka vs Harrell= Harrell at this stage but close
FVV vs Lou Will= Lou Will but FVV offers more on D while lou will is magical on offense
Wing Powell vs Shamet= Shamet

Other bench is Clippers. Harkless and McGruder are solid bench pieces.

I think the thing I like about the clippers so much is fit. They really fit well together. Zubac and Beverly wont be asked to do much on offense but are very capable in their roles. PG, Kawhi, Lou Will can all score it. Shamet can shoot it and is a good defender. Harrell is a energy monster. Green and Mcgruder are solid 2 way players. Just a ton of flexibility. Much in the mold of Toronto last year with better #2/3 scoring options

[robdog_5]

People questioning Lou Wills ability to score are crazy. Per 36 he was the #8 scorer in the league last year. Only behind Giannis, Harden, Embiid, Curry, Booker and his 2 teammates

[homecourtloss]

lmao what is this?

Montrezl = SIakam
Lou Will > Lowry
Zubac <<< Marc Gasol
PG >>>> Danny Green
Beverley > FVV
JaMychal Green > Ibaka

where do you see any advantage aside from Marc Gasol ?

You’ve been posting on RealGM since 2008. By now I’m sure you’ve seen that the sum total of a team’s strength can’t be measured by 1vs.1 inequalities, i.e., >/</= . This doesn’t even touch on the fact that some of those evaluations are awful.

The Clippers can be very good, but the Raptors were also very good, especially defensively.

[NeoDragonKnight]

One thing that people overlook about the Raptors is their style of play. They have had some of the best ball movement in the league. It is why they do better than the sum of their parts, they played true team ball and gave it to Kawhi when they needed hero ball. It is why Kawhi fit in so well on the Raptors. Ditto Gasol who only increased the ball movement.

[Tracymcgoaty]

lmao what is this?

Montrezl = SIakam
Lou Will > Lowry
Zubac <<< Marc Gasol
PG >>>> Danny Green
Beverley > FVV
JaMychal Green > Ibaka

where do you see any advantage aside from Marc Gasol ?

Realgm Logic..

Tracy Mcgrady >>>>Kareem

Jeremy Lin >>>>>Lillard

Jet Li >>>> Bruce Lee

Shawshank Redemption >>>> Every movie ever

Dont need to explain it just use the symbol.

[Pennebaker]

Lol man stop. He's an outstanding, arguably best in league #2. To say he's ideal as a 3rd option on a contender when he just led the league in RPM, had a .200+ WS/48 and put up 28 ppg is downright silly. The man **** took 10 threes a game and hit 39%. He's also got elite numbers attacking the rim and is great at getting to the foul line. These kind of posts add no value man. They are intentionally foolish and can easily be crushed with data.

Best #2? You're delusional. There is not a single franchise in the NBA that views Paul George as a centerpiece. Nobody drools over Paul George. And if YOU had a choice you would not choose Paul George as your #1 either. That goes without saying.

But true Big 2s consist of two guys that any franchise would love to have as their primary draw. Paul George is seen as a supporter.

Yes, he just had the best season of his career - but he's never done that before and his career suggests that what you'll see from him in the future is what we've seen from him for the majority of his career i.e. 21 ppg with a 19.0 PER.

He's not a superstar player.

Georges prime since 2015 is a 23-25 PPG scorer with elite defense. That's damn close to a superstar, hes the new Scottie Pippen. He had 1 slow year with Carmello Anthony lol.

Than he went off for 28 PPG and was an mvp finalist with Westbrook as his co star. Imagine having Westbrook possibly the least efficient and worst shot selection for a superstar ever and replacing him with Kawhi Leonard possibly the most efficient and best shot selection for a superstar ever. PG13 offense is about to go through the roof with Kawhi!

"Than he went off for 28 PPG and was an mvp finalist..."

But his PER was only 23.3, which is his career high. HIS CAREER HIGH!

Ideally, if all of your dreams came true, your franchise superstar should be capable of a PER of at least 30.0. 30 is elite. 30+ is legend. 23.3 is a wannabe.

So, in other words, George "went off" for 28 PPG inefficiently.

[Pennebaker]

Lol man stop. He's an outstanding, arguably best in league #2. To say he's ideal as a 3rd option on a contender when he just led the league in RPM, had a .200+ WS/48 and put up 28 ppg is downright silly. The man **** took 10 threes a game and hit 39%. He's also got elite numbers attacking the rim and is great at getting to the foul line. These kind of posts add no value man. They are intentionally foolish and can easily be crushed with data.

Best #2? You're delusional. There is not a single franchise in the NBA that views Paul George as a centerpiece. Nobody drools over Paul George. And if YOU had a choice you would not choose Paul George as your #1 either. That goes without saying.

But true Big 2s consist of two guys that any franchise would love to have as their primary draw. Paul George is seen as a supporter.

Yes, he just had the best season of his career - but he's never done that before and his career suggests that what you'll see from him in the future is what we've seen from him for the majority of his career i.e. 21 ppg with a 19.0 PER.

He's not a superstar player.

PG recently turned 29. That's a common age to peak. Prior to that he put up 22 as OKC's 2nd option and 23+ a couple seasons. He's clearly shown he can carry an offensive load on par with a #1, at worst a #2. You are moving the goal posts constantly and not arguing the same things.

Nobody said Paul is the best #1, I said he could be the best #2 on a contender. Centerpiece is a relative term. He absolutely can be part of a great duo, whether it's 1 or 2 is arbitrarily. He didn't just have a fluke 28 ppg season. He also had the metrics and efficiency to match, along with leading the NBA in steals and making the All NBA 1st team, All NBA 1st team defense. Finished 3rd in MVP race ahead of AD and Lebron btw. In the regular season PG will carry more of the load, in the playoffs Kawhi probably will.

If PG is an inadequate superstar, then so are AD and Lebron, both of whom Paul was better than last year. So which is it? No stars exist and neither Lakers guy is enough, or all of them are?

"He absolutely can be part of a great duo"

Nope.

"If PG is an inadequate superstar, then so are AD and Lebron, both of whom Paul was better than last year."

LeBron James 2018-19: 27.5, 8.5, 8.3, 51.0% shooting, 25.6 PER.

That's a "down" year for LeBron.

Paul George 2018-19: 28.0, 8.2, 4.1, 43.8% shooting, 23.3 PER.

I.e. The pinnacle of George's career doesnt even match a down year for 34 year old LeBron.

And you're here arguing that Paul George was better???

Clippers fans won't accept this until they see it for themselves, I understand that, but Paul George isn't a superstar.

[Doug_12]

The clippers bench looked good last year without pressure. Now that they play next to some actual stars try are gonna hit a little bit of reality. It happened to Boston last year.

Everyone thought "wow you add Kyrie and Hayward to how great Boston played last year, it's going to be special," it doesn't necessarily work that way. Lwill and these guys won't have the ball in their hand as much and they won't always be getting the minutes they are used to and it remains to be seen if they can be effective in a more complementary role on a real contender.

They will still be good players but I don't think you'll see them necessarily play as well as last year. What made the raptors supporting cast so special was their ability to not only play well without kawhi but their ability to play just as well even with the ball always going to him. As I said they will still be good but I suspect they will be less effective in comparison to last year as a result.

That happened w/ the Lakers bench as well in 2008/2009 after Gasol joined and Bynum got back. In 2007/08 we had statistically a top 10 bench w/ Farmar, Vujacic, Walton, Ariza, Radmanovic and Ronny. Then after we reached the Finals and the pressure rose it turned out that those players are not that great. Not saying it will necessarily happen w/ the Clippers bench, but it is always easier to play without much expectation.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Best #2? You're delusional. There is not a single franchise in the NBA that views Paul George as a centerpiece. Nobody drools over Paul George. And if YOU had a choice you would not choose Paul George as your #1 either. That goes without saying.

But true Big 2s consist of two guys that any franchise would love to have as their primary draw. Paul George is seen as a supporter.

Yes, he just had the best season of his career - but he's never done that before and his career suggests that what you'll see from him in the future is what we've seen from him for the majority of his career i.e. 21 ppg with a 19.0 PER.

He's not a superstar player.

PG recently turned 29. That's a common age to peak. Prior to that he put up 22 as OKC's 2nd option and 23+ a couple seasons. He's clearly shown he can carry an offensive load on par with a #1, at worst a #2. You are moving the goal posts constantly and not arguing the same things.

Nobody said Paul is the best #1, I said he could be the best #2 on a contender. Centerpiece is a relative term. He absolutely can be part of a great duo, whether it's 1 or 2 is arbitrarily. He didn't just have a fluke 28 ppg season. He also had the metrics and efficiency to match, along with leading the NBA in steals and making the All NBA 1st team, All NBA 1st team defense. Finished 3rd in MVP race ahead of AD and Lebron btw. In the regular season PG will carry more of the load, in the playoffs Kawhi probably will.

If PG is an inadequate superstar, then so are AD and Lebron, both of whom Paul was better than last year. So which is it? No stars exist and neither Lakers guy is enough, or all of them are?

"He absolutely can be part of a great duo"

Nope.

"If PG is an inadequate superstar, then so are AD and Lebron, both of whom Paul was better than last year."

LeBron James 2018-19: 27.5, 8.5, 8.3, 51.0% shooting, 25.6 PER.

That's a "down" year for LeBron.

Paul George 2018-19: 28.0, 8.2, 4.1, 43.8% shooting, 23.3 PER.

I.e. The pinnacle of George's career doesnt even match a down year for 34 year old LeBron.

And you're here arguing that Paul George was better???

Clippers fans won't accept this until they see it for themselves, I understand that, but Paul George isn't a superstar.

Yes, Paul was better last year. Doesn't mean he's better than previous Lebron obviously. Are you going to disregard the down year for Lebron as a fluke when he's going on 35 and has a million miles on his body in 15 seasons with deep playoff runs every year? I'm more suspecting it's the start of a decline. With the addition of AD, I expect his numbers to actually drop again as he focuses on facilitating more. PG on the other hand will be forced to carry a way bigger load due to Kawhi load management+his coasting in the regular season.