Kobe Bryant Athleticism

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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#21 » by Dr Positivity » Sat Feb 1, 2020 7:57 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Zeitgeister wrote:I mean, Kobe was definitely exceptionally athletic but when you compare him to his peers like Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Dwayne Wade, I think it's difficult for me to put him above any of them.


Big Meh on TMac and Vince. Their functional basketball athleticism wasn’t on the level of the GOAT wings IMO. Neither is really impressive at all when it comes to getting to the rim or foul draw rate. Kobe has a better basketball body than either IMO.

I would put Jimmy Butler, for example, 1 or 2 tiers above either guy.


I think Vince’s athleticism is slightly overrated because he’s a better leaper than a slasher and therefore Kobe has a case against him, but he’s still an elite level athlete. Jimmy Butler? No way.

I think the better explanation for Tmac and Vince not getting to the line very much is that they’re softer players than people like Butler and Kobe. Both were criticized their whole prime for not playing with enough heart.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#22 » by Dr Spaceman » Sat Feb 1, 2020 10:54 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Zeitgeister wrote:I mean, Kobe was definitely exceptionally athletic but when you compare him to his peers like Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Dwayne Wade, I think it's difficult for me to put him above any of them.


Big Meh on TMac and Vince. Their functional basketball athleticism wasn’t on the level of the GOAT wings IMO. Neither is really impressive at all when it comes to getting to the rim or foul draw rate. Kobe has a better basketball body than either IMO.

I would put Jimmy Butler, for example, 1 or 2 tiers above either guy.


I think Vince’s athleticism is slightly overrated because he’s a better leaper than a slasher and therefore Kobe has a case against him, but he’s still an elite level athlete. Jimmy Butler? No way.

I think the better explanation for Tmac and Vince not getting to the line very much is that they’re softer players than people like Butler and Kobe. Both were criticized their whole prime for not playing with enough heart.


Well allow me to get on my soapbox because I have long been begging people here to take a more holistic view on athleticism.

Strength is the most underrated aspect of athleticism Butler is all-time strong for a wing. This is the main reason his draw rate is so high and he’s so effective as a slasher. He’s also top-tier in body control and has an insane vertical so he can live off Kobe-style fade-aways.

Butler is a historically good offensive rebounder for a wing, maybe GOAT, which is one of the skills most dependent on athleticism. He’s also an excellent shot blocker for a wing despite having poor length and his lateral explosiveness along with his strength allowed him to be a top-tier wing defender for most of his early career. Dude also has ridiculous endurance and would play high-intensity two-way ball while often leading the league in minutes while being coached by Thibs.

He’s not close to Vince or T-Mac as a one foot leaper so he’s not getting a bunch of dunks off the dribble. But his two-foot explosion is elite; tested a 39 inch vertical at the combine, only Isaiah Thomas and Kemba were clearly better in his draft class. Because he’s a two-foot jumper most of his dunks would come off-ball. But if you look at the numbers, he’s not far off Vince at all- in their best seasons, were talking about the difference between 1.0 and 1.1 dunks per game.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#23 » by LakerLegend » Sat Feb 1, 2020 11:11 pm

frica wrote:
dcstanley wrote:
LakerLegend wrote:


The biggest physical difference between Kobe and Jordan is the hand size, which affects the way you do things on the court in a lot of ways.

As far as pure athleticism there isn't a significant difference between them other than trade-offs like Jordan being stronger and Kobe being more flexible(Phil's words)

Isn't bigger hand size a detriment when it comes to shooting and ball-handling?

I don't think there's any real correlation between the two.


I think it depends. Large hands definitely help you protect the ball in terms of ballhandling.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#24 » by LakerLegend » Sat Feb 1, 2020 11:19 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Big Meh on TMac and Vince. Their functional basketball athleticism wasn’t on the level of the GOAT wings IMO. Neither is really impressive at all when it comes to getting to the rim or foul draw rate. Kobe has a better basketball body than either IMO.

I would put Jimmy Butler, for example, 1 or 2 tiers above either guy.


I think Vince’s athleticism is slightly overrated because he’s a better leaper than a slasher and therefore Kobe has a case against him, but he’s still an elite level athlete. Jimmy Butler? No way.

I think the better explanation for Tmac and Vince not getting to the line very much is that they’re softer players than people like Butler and Kobe. Both were criticized their whole prime for not playing with enough heart.


Well allow me to get on my soapbox because I have long been begging people here to take a more holistic view on athleticism.

Strength is the most underrated aspect of athleticism Butler is all-time strong for a wing. This is the main reason his draw rate is so high and he’s so effective as a slasher. He’s also top-tier in body control and has an insane vertical so he can live off Kobe-style fade-aways.

Butler is a historically good offensive rebounder for a wing, maybe GOAT, which is one of the skills most dependent on athleticism. He’s also an excellent shot blocker for a wing despite having poor length and his lateral explosiveness along with his strength allowed him to be a top-tier wing defender for most of his early career. Dude also has ridiculous endurance and would play high-intensity two-way ball while often leading the league in minutes while being coached by Thibs.

He’s not close to Vince or T-Mac as a one foot leaper so he’s not getting a bunch of dunks off the dribble. But his two-foot explosion is elite; tested a 39 inch vertical at the combine, only Isaiah Thomas and Kemba were clearly better in his draft class. Because he’s a two-foot jumper most of his dunks would come off-ball. But if you look at the numbers, he’s not far off Vince at all- in their best seasons, were talking about the difference between 1.0 and 1.1 dunks per game.


I don't think Butler is in either Vince or T-Mac's stratosphere, I've seen both of them do functionally athletic things(just like Kobe and Jordan) I've never seen another player do. Example:

6 minute 6 second mark:




1 minute 15 second mark, one of the 5 best layups I've ever seen.




Also, Vince a better slasher than Kobe? First time I've ever heard that.

If Vince does jump higher in terms of pure vertical, the difference isn't more than a couple of inches. Vince might have the longest wingspan I've ever seen out of a 6-6ish player, his arms give the illusion he's jumping higher than he actually is and it's the combination of his wingspan and handsize that make his dunks look so spectacular.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#25 » by pancakes3 » Sat Feb 1, 2020 11:33 pm

i agree w the consensus that Kobe's "merely great" and not a freak athlete but whenever i see the 5-6 highlights where he's going baseline, takes off from one side of the basket and reverse slams it from the other side, it gives me pause bc damn that's an athletic af move.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#26 » by eminence » Sat Feb 1, 2020 11:48 pm

Athleticism has grown harder to rank as it's grown past the run/jump roots. Even someone like Curry mentioned up thread has absolutely ridiculous hand-eye coordination that 99% of NBA players will never match no matter how hard they try.

Kobe was obviously a spectacular athlete with no real visible weakness on that front.

Of guys not mentioned yet in this thread, Iguodala and Baron Davis always struck me as two of the most athletic guard/wings in the league.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#27 » by Dr Spaceman » Sat Feb 1, 2020 11:54 pm

LakerLegend wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:
I think Vince’s athleticism is slightly overrated because he’s a better leaper than a slasher and therefore Kobe has a case against him, but he’s still an elite level athlete. Jimmy Butler? No way.

I think the better explanation for Tmac and Vince not getting to the line very much is that they’re softer players than people like Butler and Kobe. Both were criticized their whole prime for not playing with enough heart.


Well allow me to get on my soapbox because I have long been begging people here to take a more holistic view on athleticism.

Strength is the most underrated aspect of athleticism Butler is all-time strong for a wing. This is the main reason his draw rate is so high and he’s so effective as a slasher. He’s also top-tier in body control and has an insane vertical so he can live off Kobe-style fade-aways.

Butler is a historically good offensive rebounder for a wing, maybe GOAT, which is one of the skills most dependent on athleticism. He’s also an excellent shot blocker for a wing despite having poor length and his lateral explosiveness along with his strength allowed him to be a top-tier wing defender for most of his early career. Dude also has ridiculous endurance and would play high-intensity two-way ball while often leading the league in minutes while being coached by Thibs.

He’s not close to Vince or T-Mac as a one foot leaper so he’s not getting a bunch of dunks off the dribble. But his two-foot explosion is elite; tested a 39 inch vertical at the combine, only Isaiah Thomas and Kemba were clearly better in his draft class. Because he’s a two-foot jumper most of his dunks would come off-ball. But if you look at the numbers, he’s not far off Vince at all- in their best seasons, were talking about the difference between 1.0 and 1.1 dunks per game.


I don't think Butler is in either Vince or T-Mac's stratosphere, I've seen both of them do functionally athletic things(just like Kobe and Jordan) I've never seen another player do. Example:

6 minute 6 second mark:




1 minute 15 second mark, one of the 5 best layups I've ever seen.




Also, Vince a better slasher than Kobe? First time I've ever heard that.

If Vince does jump higher in terms of pure vertical, the difference isn't more than a couple of inches. Vince might have the longest wingspan I've ever seen out of a 6-6ish player, his arms give the illusion he's jumping higher than he actually is and it's the combination of his wingspan and handsize that make his dunks look so spectacular.


This doesn’t address anything I said though. Yes those layup’s are great but can you make a case that it outweighs Butler‘s superior strength, endurance, and lateral quickness? Vince’s length and leaping ability didn’t allow him to defend a force like Peak LeBron James, while Butler held up very well against him due to those athletic traits.

And I don’t think I said Vince was a better slasher than Kobe, that might’ve been a misunderstanding.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#28 » by LakerLegend » Sat Feb 1, 2020 11:57 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
LakerLegend wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Well allow me to get on my soapbox because I have long been begging people here to take a more holistic view on athleticism.

Strength is the most underrated aspect of athleticism Butler is all-time strong for a wing. This is the main reason his draw rate is so high and he’s so effective as a slasher. He’s also top-tier in body control and has an insane vertical so he can live off Kobe-style fade-aways.

Butler is a historically good offensive rebounder for a wing, maybe GOAT, which is one of the skills most dependent on athleticism. He’s also an excellent shot blocker for a wing despite having poor length and his lateral explosiveness along with his strength allowed him to be a top-tier wing defender for most of his early career. Dude also has ridiculous endurance and would play high-intensity two-way ball while often leading the league in minutes while being coached by Thibs.

He’s not close to Vince or T-Mac as a one foot leaper so he’s not getting a bunch of dunks off the dribble. But his two-foot explosion is elite; tested a 39 inch vertical at the combine, only Isaiah Thomas and Kemba were clearly better in his draft class. Because he’s a two-foot jumper most of his dunks would come off-ball. But if you look at the numbers, he’s not far off Vince at all- in their best seasons, were talking about the difference between 1.0 and 1.1 dunks per game.


I don't think Butler is in either Vince or T-Mac's stratosphere, I've seen both of them do functionally athletic things(just like Kobe and Jordan) I've never seen another player do. Example:

6 minute 6 second mark:




1 minute 15 second mark, one of the 5 best layups I've ever seen.




Also, Vince a better slasher than Kobe? First time I've ever heard that.

If Vince does jump higher in terms of pure vertical, the difference isn't more than a couple of inches. Vince might have the longest wingspan I've ever seen out of a 6-6ish player, his arms give the illusion he's jumping higher than he actually is and it's the combination of his wingspan and handsize that make his dunks look so spectacular.


This doesn’t address anything I said though. Yes those layup’s are great but can you make a case that it outweighs Butler‘s superior strength, endurance, and lateral quickness? Vince’s length and leaping ability didn’t allow him to defend a force like Peak LeBron James, while Butler held up very well against him due to those athletic traits.

And I don’t think I said Vince was a better slasher than Kobe, that might’ve been a misunderstanding.


I've seen a 38 year old Jason Kidd off of microfracture surgery and a 35 year old Bruce Bowen shut down LeBron in the Finals, physical ability had very little to do with it.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#29 » by DirtyDez » Sun Feb 2, 2020 7:10 am

fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#30 » by MrBigShot » Sun Feb 2, 2020 8:58 am

Jimmy Butler isn't on the same level as Kobe, Vince and T-Mac at their athletic peaks. Butler is a very good athlete but not really an elite one; I think the strength component is getting vastly overrated here. Virtually any player can acquire strength, but you can't simply go from a meh athlete to a top tier one in terms of speed and explosiveness. It's the rare combination of strength to go along with top shelf speed and explosiveness that is really special. You don't see many athletes with the combination of strength & other athletic characteristics that Zion and LeBron have. And if we are talking about body control, Kobe/Vince/T-Mac have managed to complete some of the most ridiculously silly layups and dunks that you have to see with your own eyes to believe.

Kobe imo was very much an elite athlete at his athletic peak, but not on par with the really transcendent athletes like MJ and LeBron as others have mentioned.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#31 » by LakerLegend » Sun Feb 2, 2020 9:34 pm

MrBigShot wrote:Jimmy Butler isn't on the same level as Kobe, Vince and T-Mac at their athletic peaks. Butler is a very good athlete but not really an elite one; I think the strength component is getting vastly overrated here. Virtually any player can acquire strength, but you can't simply go from a meh athlete to a top tier one in terms of speed and explosiveness. It's the rare combination of strength to go along with top shelf speed and explosiveness that is really special. You don't see many athletes with the combination of strength & other athletic characteristics that Zion and LeBron have. And if we are talking about body control, Kobe/Vince/T-Mac have managed to complete some of the most ridiculously silly layups and dunks that you have to see with your own eyes to believe.

Kobe imo was very much an elite athlete at his athletic peak, but not on par with the really transcendent athletes like MJ and LeBron as others have mentioned.


I don't factor LeBron into these debates anymore as I believe he's been on PED's for most if not all of his career.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#32 » by SeniorWalker » Sun Feb 2, 2020 9:48 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Zeitgeister wrote:I mean, Kobe was definitely exceptionally athletic but when you compare him to his peers like Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Dwayne Wade, I think it's difficult for me to put him above any of them.


Big Meh on TMac and Vince. Their functional basketball athleticism wasn’t on the level of the GOAT wings IMO. Neither is really impressive at all when it comes to getting to the rim or foul draw rate. Kobe has a better basketball body than either IMO.

I would put Jimmy Butler, for example, 1 or 2 tiers above either guy.

No way Butler compares to either. Been watching Butler most of his career. In terms of strength at the 2 hes elite, but his quickness and bounce are quite average. Vince is arguably the best leaping 2 we've ever seen. Wade is like 2 tiers quicker than Butler while also being very strong himself. Tmac also is a better leaper, a tad quicker and is just longer.

Butler is a workhorse but not what I'd consider a special talent at the 2 or 3.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#33 » by LakerLegend » Tue Feb 4, 2020 2:24 am



That's after he tore his achilles. Look at the overhead angle.

He shifts his hands in the air the same mount of times as Jordan did on his famous Nets layup.

There's a handful of players in NBA history who MAYBE could do that at ANY stage.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#34 » by carlquincy » Tue Feb 4, 2020 3:06 am

A unreal blend of grace and power.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#35 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Feb 4, 2020 7:00 am

SeniorWalker wrote:No way Butler compares to either. Been watching Butler most of his career. In terms of strength at the 2 hes elite, but his quickness and bounce are quite average. Vince is arguably the best leaping 2 we've ever seen. Wade is like 2 tiers quicker than Butler while also being very strong himself. Tmac also is a better leaper, a tad quicker and is just longer.

Butler is a workhorse but not what I'd consider a special talent at the 2 or 3.


I'd also point out that Kobe is up there for strongest SGs as well if that's supposed to be Butler's selling point
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#36 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Feb 4, 2020 1:00 pm

MrBigShot wrote:Jimmy Butler isn't on the same level as Kobe, Vince and T-Mac at their athletic peaks. Butler is a very good athlete but not really an elite one; I think the strength component is getting vastly overrated here. Virtually any player can acquire strength, but you can't simply go from a meh athlete to a top tier one in terms of speed and explosiveness. It's the rare combination of strength to go along with top shelf speed and explosiveness that is really special. You don't see many athletes with the combination of strength & other athletic characteristics that Zion and LeBron have. And if we are talking about body control, Kobe/Vince/T-Mac have managed to complete some of the most ridiculously silly layups and dunks that you have to see with your own eyes to believe.

Kobe imo was very much an elite athlete at his athletic peak, but not on par with the really transcendent athletes like MJ and LeBron as others have mentioned.


Is there any scientific basis at all for what you’re saying here? You seriously don’t think there is a strong genetic component to strength and the ability to put on muscle? I can point to dozens of studies that say the opposite.

One major study, for example, showed that muscle gain can differ between individuals but as much as 58% with the exact same diet and training regimen for complete beginners. The overall genetic component for strength reading is believed to be around 50-60% heritable. Hair color is 61% heritable and eye color is 80% heritable, for reference.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#37 » by 70sFan » Tue Feb 4, 2020 1:16 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Big Meh on TMac and Vince. Their functional basketball athleticism wasn’t on the level of the GOAT wings IMO. Neither is really impressive at all when it comes to getting to the rim or foul draw rate. Kobe has a better basketball body than either IMO.

I would put Jimmy Butler, for example, 1 or 2 tiers above either guy.


I think Vince’s athleticism is slightly overrated because he’s a better leaper than a slasher and therefore Kobe has a case against him, but he’s still an elite level athlete. Jimmy Butler? No way.

I think the better explanation for Tmac and Vince not getting to the line very much is that they’re softer players than people like Butler and Kobe. Both were criticized their whole prime for not playing with enough heart.


Well allow me to get on my soapbox because I have long been begging people here to take a more holistic view on athleticism.

Strength is the most underrated aspect of athleticism Butler is all-time strong for a wing. This is the main reason his draw rate is so high and he’s so effective as a slasher. He’s also top-tier in body control and has an insane vertical so he can live off Kobe-style fade-aways.

Butler is a historically good offensive rebounder for a wing, maybe GOAT, which is one of the skills most dependent on athleticism. He’s also an excellent shot blocker for a wing despite having poor length and his lateral explosiveness along with his strength allowed him to be a top-tier wing defender for most of his early career. Dude also has ridiculous endurance and would play high-intensity two-way ball while often leading the league in minutes while being coached by Thibs.

He’s not close to Vince or T-Mac as a one foot leaper so he’s not getting a bunch of dunks off the dribble. But his two-foot explosion is elite; tested a 39 inch vertical at the combine, only Isaiah Thomas and Kemba were clearly better in his draft class. Because he’s a two-foot jumper most of his dunks would come off-ball. But if you look at the numbers, he’s not far off Vince at all- in their best seasons, were talking about the difference between 1.0 and 1.1 dunks per game.


I agree with some of your points in this thread (mainly that Vince is overrated as an athlete) but Butler is not close to GOAT offensive rebounder for a guard, let alone wing. He peaked at 7.3 ORB% (6.5% this season as 3rd best in his career). In comparison, Sidney Moncrief peaked at ridiculous 11.1% and he averaged 7.9% in his first 7 seasons. Clyde Drexler was even better in that aspect. Of course both are GOAT-level athletes at their positions, so your point stands well.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#38 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Feb 4, 2020 2:04 pm

70sFan wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:
I think Vince’s athleticism is slightly overrated because he’s a better leaper than a slasher and therefore Kobe has a case against him, but he’s still an elite level athlete. Jimmy Butler? No way.

I think the better explanation for Tmac and Vince not getting to the line very much is that they’re softer players than people like Butler and Kobe. Both were criticized their whole prime for not playing with enough heart.


Well allow me to get on my soapbox because I have long been begging people here to take a more holistic view on athleticism.

Strength is the most underrated aspect of athleticism Butler is all-time strong for a wing. This is the main reason his draw rate is so high and he’s so effective as a slasher. He’s also top-tier in body control and has an insane vertical so he can live off Kobe-style fade-aways.

Butler is a historically good offensive rebounder for a wing, maybe GOAT, which is one of the skills most dependent on athleticism. He’s also an excellent shot blocker for a wing despite having poor length and his lateral explosiveness along with his strength allowed him to be a top-tier wing defender for most of his early career. Dude also has ridiculous endurance and would play high-intensity two-way ball while often leading the league in minutes while being coached by Thibs.

He’s not close to Vince or T-Mac as a one foot leaper so he’s not getting a bunch of dunks off the dribble. But his two-foot explosion is elite; tested a 39 inch vertical at the combine, only Isaiah Thomas and Kemba were clearly better in his draft class. Because he’s a two-foot jumper most of his dunks would come off-ball. But if you look at the numbers, he’s not far off Vince at all- in their best seasons, were talking about the difference between 1.0 and 1.1 dunks per game.


I agree with some of your points in this thread (mainly that Vince is overrated as an athlete) but Butler is not close to GOAT offensive rebounder for a guard, let alone wing. He peaked at 7.3 ORB% (6.5% this season as 3rd best in his career). In comparison, Sidney Moncrief peaked at ridiculous 11.1% and he averaged 7.9% in his first 7 seasons. Clyde Drexler was even better in that aspect. Of course both are GOAT-level athletes at their positions, so your point stands well.


True, but we have to remember those guys played in an era where it was much more emphasized and perimeter players were closer to the basket. Squid in 81 example was 54th in the league in ORB% which coincidentally is almost exactly where Jimmy ranks now. His 80 season was an extreme outlier though, granted.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#39 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Feb 4, 2020 2:10 pm

SeniorWalker wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Zeitgeister wrote:I mean, Kobe was definitely exceptionally athletic but when you compare him to his peers like Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Dwayne Wade, I think it's difficult for me to put him above any of them.


Big Meh on TMac and Vince. Their functional basketball athleticism wasn’t on the level of the GOAT wings IMO. Neither is really impressive at all when it comes to getting to the rim or foul draw rate. Kobe has a better basketball body than either IMO.

I would put Jimmy Butler, for example, 1 or 2 tiers above either guy.

No way Butler compares to either. Been watching Butler most of his career. In terms of strength at the 2 hes elite, but his quickness and bounce are quite average. Vince is arguably the best leaping 2 we've ever seen. Wade is like 2 tiers quicker than Butler while also being very strong himself. Tmac also is a better leaper, a tad quicker and is just longer.

Butler is a workhorse but not what I'd consider a special talent at the 2 or 3.


How is Butler‘s bounce average? He pretty frequently got his head at the rim in his Bulls days and dunks about as often as Vince did.

Butler tested a 39 inch vert at the combine (Derrick Rose’s was 37 and Wade‘s was 35, Westbrook 36.5, Kobe 38, Vince 43, Steph 35.5, Harden 32) and here he is doing a 50 inch box jump:

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Re: Kobe Bryant Athleticism 

Post#40 » by 70sFan » Tue Feb 4, 2020 2:15 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Well allow me to get on my soapbox because I have long been begging people here to take a more holistic view on athleticism.

Strength is the most underrated aspect of athleticism Butler is all-time strong for a wing. This is the main reason his draw rate is so high and he’s so effective as a slasher. He’s also top-tier in body control and has an insane vertical so he can live off Kobe-style fade-aways.

Butler is a historically good offensive rebounder for a wing, maybe GOAT, which is one of the skills most dependent on athleticism. He’s also an excellent shot blocker for a wing despite having poor length and his lateral explosiveness along with his strength allowed him to be a top-tier wing defender for most of his early career. Dude also has ridiculous endurance and would play high-intensity two-way ball while often leading the league in minutes while being coached by Thibs.

He’s not close to Vince or T-Mac as a one foot leaper so he’s not getting a bunch of dunks off the dribble. But his two-foot explosion is elite; tested a 39 inch vertical at the combine, only Isaiah Thomas and Kemba were clearly better in his draft class. Because he’s a two-foot jumper most of his dunks would come off-ball. But if you look at the numbers, he’s not far off Vince at all- in their best seasons, were talking about the difference between 1.0 and 1.1 dunks per game.


I agree with some of your points in this thread (mainly that Vince is overrated as an athlete) but Butler is not close to GOAT offensive rebounder for a guard, let alone wing. He peaked at 7.3 ORB% (6.5% this season as 3rd best in his career). In comparison, Sidney Moncrief peaked at ridiculous 11.1% and he averaged 7.9% in his first 7 seasons. Clyde Drexler was even better in that aspect. Of course both are GOAT-level athletes at their positions, so your point stands well.


True, but we have to remember those guys played in an era where it was much more emphasized and perimeter players were closer to the basket. Squid in 81 example was 54th in the league in ORB% which coincidentally is almost exactly where Jimmy ranks now. His 80 season was an extreme outlier though, granted.

True, that's important aspect but on the other hand, back then whole teams were focused on rebounding which made guards tougher to take contested offensive rebounds. Still even based on eye-test, Squid is clearly better offensive rebounder than Butler for me.

Sidney was just a freak - he looked like typical combo guard without significant size but he was one of the most athletic players ever at his positions. I've seen him rebounding the ball over seven footers, then finishing under the basket in traffic over them like it was nothing. This guy was all athleticism on offense - he posted up guys inches taller than him and made chasedown blocks like LeBron James on the other side of the floor.

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