Is there a center more skilled than Hakeem?

bledredwine · Post #1 » by **bledredwine** » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:53 pm

I'd say the general opinion out there is that Hakeem Olajuwon is the most skilled center of all time.
To see what he could do against the defensive behemoth David Robinson is amazing.

But there are many different opinions here and I know that there are many Duncan/Garnett fans.
There are probably some older names that many of us are unfamiliar with.

So I want to ask, who is your most skilled center of all time, genuinely?
Please post a single game to demonstrate and compare (not highlights from many games)

Watch on YouTube

70sFan · Post #2 » by **70sFan** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:00 am

How would you define "skills"?

bledredwine · Post #3 » by **bledredwine** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:06 am

70sFan wrote:How would you define "skills"?

Footwork, ability to shoot, finesse, dribble, pass, versatility defensively too etc. All technical facility and fundamentals.

kendogg · Post #4 » by **kendogg** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:49 am

Wilt has the most physical gifts of any center. 100 point game, 55 rebound game vs Bill Russell. Of the greatest single performances of all time, you could probably name Wilt a dozen times. Does that make him the most skilled? Kareem was also insanely skilled even when he was old. You can make the case that Kareem was the best performer in the 1985 finals at age 38, over Bird and Magic. Kareem had as good if not better hands than Hakeem. Hakeem has a more flashy offensive arsenal for sure, but better? Kareem absolutely crushes Dream in offensive efficiency.

Dream has some of the best post moves for a big man, and is certainly skilled defensively as well. But best of all time? Just because he can outplay another center 1v1? NOBODY in contention for the #1 spot can be guarded 1v1.

giberish · Post #5 » by **giberish** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:55 am

I'd argue for Jokic. In terms of shooting/passing/dribbling skill it's tough to see a center at his level. Obviously there have been a bunch of centers with significant physical advantages - some by enough to be better players despite Jokic's skill level.

No-more-rings · Post #6 » by **No-more-rings** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:03 am

Depends if defensive things are skills. Jokic and Wilt are probably more skilled offensively but not overall.

Colbinii · Post #7 » by **Colbinii** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:40 am

No-more-rings wrote:Depends if defensive things are skills. Jokic and Wilt are probably more skilled offensively but not overall.

It is worth point out Jokic is skilled enough to be a positive to good defensive player without the same physical tools as Hakeem.

Dr Positivity · Post #8 » by **Dr Positivity** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:43 am

My impression is Hakeem had a lot of moves but he wasn’t as accurate finishing those moves as a player like Kareem. So I would rate Kareem ahead of him. Same argument for Jokic who also has a big advantage in passing.

SHAQ32 · Post #9 » by **SHAQ32** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:55 am

bledredwine wrote:
70sFan wrote:How would you define "skills"?

Footwork, ability to shoot, finesse, dribble, pass, versatility defensively too etc. All technical facility and fundamentals.

I wouldn't say 'more skilled' obviously, but Vin Baker was a PF/C that was ahead of the curve in his era as far as checking all the boxes on offense, while still being a guy that could defend and block shots.

Lost92Bricks · Post #10 » by **Lost92Bricks** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:08 am

Including defense, no. But how much of defense is skill?

bledredwine · Post #11 » by **bledredwine** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:50 am

Lost92Bricks wrote:Including defense, no. But how much of defense is skill?

My thoughts exactly. I thought about it, and I can’t think of anyone offensively as skilled, but his defense and agility makes it a gap to me.

bledredwine · Post #12 » by **bledredwine** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:51 am

Dr Positivity wrote:My impression is Hakeem had a lot of moves but he wasn’t as accurate finishing those moves as a player like Kareem. So I would rate Kareem ahead of him. Same argument for Jokic who also has a big advantage in passing.

Good call. Kareem was my number two.

70sFan · Post #13 » by **70sFan** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:04 am

Alright, bledredwine wanted some videos so let's do this

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I could use many games from his prime, but I decided to pick his destruction of strong and deep Warriors team from 1977. There is nothing Kareem couldn't have done. He was skilled in the post (to say the least), he had good handles for his size (I've seen him doing coast to coast and finishing with eurostep more than once), he's actually better passer than Hakeem and he was smart defender with good footwork (despite the height).

Spoiler:

Willis Reed

Willis was less athletic version of Hakeem, he had amazing midrange game and his footwork is excellent. Good defensive player too, desptie short body he was really skilled at defending bigger guys.

Spoiler:

Bob Lanier

Bob had all the tools on offensive end. He's very impressive offensive player and his defense was quite good despite physical limitations. I could use footage from his prime, but this one when he was old and immobile shows how skilled he really was.

Spoiler:

Arvydas Sabonis

We haven't seen him in his prime during NBA career, but everybody knows how skilled this guy was. He was a guard in 7'3 body, except that he also had amazing post game. I wanted to use some of his pre-NBA highlights, but decided not to because I focus only on NBA careers.

Spoiler:

Tim Duncan

Duncan was Duncan, we all know him. Excellent post game, good passer, very good handles for a big, decent shooter. I have a hard time picking exact game that would pronouce his skillset, but I decided to pick his scoring explosion against Jazz from 2000. He showed how versatile he was in isolation in this game.

Spoiler:

Nikola Jokic

We all know Joker - amazing passer, amazing handles, good shooter, very good post player. I picked his game against the Jazz from this season, because of how well he played against strong defender Rudy Gobert.

Spoiler:

There are more candidates, but these ones are first that came to my mind.

Odinn21 · Post #14 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:35 am

Hakeem's surely up there. He's in the top tier. But people on the internet have a tendency to overrate him when they think they're giving him his due.

I'd take Kareem ahead of Hakeem rather easily for this BTW.

Gooner · Post #15 » by **Gooner** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:04 am

giberish wrote:I'd argue for Jokic. In terms of shooting/passing/dribbling skill it's tough to see a center at his level. Obviously there have been a bunch of centers with significant physical advantages - some by enough to be better players despite Jokic's skill level.

Olajuwon was doing crossovers. No center could dribble like him.

KGtabake · Post #16 » by **KGtabake** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:04 am

Sabonis.

bledredwine · Post #17 » by **bledredwine** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:54 pm

70sFan wrote:Alright, bledredwine wanted some videos so let's do this

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

I could use many games from his prime, but I decided to pick his destruction of strong and deep Warriors team from 1977. There is nothing Kareem couldn't have done. He was skilled in the post (to say the least), he had good handles for his size (I've seen him doing coast to coast and finishing with eurostep more than once), he's actually better passer than Hakeem and he was smart defender with good footwork (despite the height).
Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Willis Reed

Willis was less athletic version of Hakeem, he had amazing midrange game and his footwork is excellent. Good defensive player too, desptie short body he was really skilled at defending bigger guys.
Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Bob Lanier

Bob had all the tools on offensive end. He's very impressive offensive player and his defense was quite good despite physical limitations. I could use footage from his prime, but this one when he was old and immobile shows how skilled he really was.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Arvydas Sabonis

We haven't seen him in his prime during NBA career, but everybody knows how skilled this guy was. He was a guard in 7'3 body, except that he also had amazing post game. I wanted to use some of his pre-NBA highlights, but decided not to because I focus only on NBA careers.
Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Tim Duncan

Duncan was Duncan, we all know him. Excellent post game, good passer, very good handles for a big, decent shooter. I have a hard time picking exact game that would pronouce his skillset, but I decided to pick his scoring explosion against Jazz from 2000. He showed how versatile he was in isolation in this game.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Nikola Jokic

We all know Joker - amazing passer, amazing handles, good shooter, very good post player. I picked his game against the Jazz from this season, because of how well he played against strong defender Rudy Gobert.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

There are more candidates, but these ones are first that came to my mind.

Thanks! awesome post. This is exactly the type of response that I was hoping for. I watched the videos and here are my reactions. Of course, my opinion.

Kareem- obviously a great comparison and could be the one to be more skilled. He had the full repertoire, unusual skill for his height and we know what he was defensively capable. I even saw a lefty hook in there.

Willis- I saw all midrange shots and some turnarounds. Maybe it’s not a good video but I don’t see it in the ATG skills discussion.

Lanier- Wow. This surprised me and was very impressive. GOAT midrange big? After Hakeem, I may have been most impressed by his display of everything. And he had athleticism to boot. I like the way he posts up and uses his length to grab the ball in the other direction far from his body. And what he a touch he had. Seriously, I had no idea that Lanier was this versatile, or this good.

Jokic- I don’t get why people are mentioning him. He’s obviously versatile, but he has such clumsy footwork, high dribbling, and looks slow/clumsy like Embiid when scoring. I think that he gets dismantled by any of the most elite guys here. The rest are battle tested. I get that he’s the new car right now, but wouldn’t include him. The only thing he has over Hakeem is his unusual passing ability.

Arvydas- I was happy you mentioned him as when I made this thread, I wanted to see how many would mention him vs Jokic as it’s a testament to equality over eras. They were similar. That said, Sabonis is also unathletic and slow like Jokic. I don’t think that he’s in the Kareem Hakeem and now IMO Lanier tier.

Duncan- obviously a contender in the comparison. He was great but had limited moves and footwork compared to Hakeem and Kareem. For me, I have him in the top of the next group of guys. But once again, that’s my opinion. I just think of Kareem and Hakeem as the two skilled freaks, and will have to watch more Lanier video because damn.

Anyway, the original motivation for this post stemmed from casual watching. I watch many players when I’m bored and whenever I see Hakeem, I’m surprised by how good he looks on both ends compared to the other great bigs. I believe that if not for the shadow of Jordan, he’d be considered a top five player all time (he’s my 6th anyway). I attribute his success to his full package of skills and fundamentals with athleticism. He did this in the era that most argue to be most loaded with bigs. And who he carried to two championships is just a testament to that.

Post #18 » by **penbeast0** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:56 pm

I don't think I care much whether my center can dribble; if I have a 7 footer, the last thing I want them doing is putting the ball on the floor unless they are a Durant/Dirk type who works further outside.

I do think defensive skill set is hugely important. Positioning, shotblocking (both timing and knowing when to go for it and when not to), defending the post, the vertical game, handling the PnR. I think this is Hakeem's strength despite the flashiness of his offensive game.

I also think you might have a few candidates from the badly undersized players that played center anyway like Bob McAdoo, using their skills to compete with much bigger/stronger players. They may not have been nearly as effective as Hakeem but their actual skills might be equivalent or even better. Sort of like Adrian Dantley as a post scorer v. Shaq type thinking.

Post #19 » by **Texas Chuck** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:48 pm

Every time someone posts an OP suggesting Dream dominated Robinson, I feel obligated to point out that in h2h meetings over their career, not cherry-picked small samples, their numbers are very close, with all edges other than volume scoring going to Admiral and the Spurs dominated the Rockets in w/l telling us Robinson was more effective as a defender as well.

Now, he is more skilled than Robinson, but people need to stop using this as their justification for Dream's greatness when it simply is a false narrative.

70sFan · Post #20 » by **70sFan** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:07 pm

bledredwine wrote:Thanks! awesome post. This is exactly the type of response that I was hoping for. I watched the videos and here are my reactions. Of course, my opinion.

Thanks for kind words, I appreciate that!

Kareem- obviously a great comparison and could be the one to be more skilled. He had the full repertoire, unusual skill for his height and we know what he was defensively capable. I even saw a lefty hook in there.

Kareem was complete package, no disagreement here

Willis- I saw all midrange shots and some turnarounds. Maybe it’s not a good video but I don’t see it in the ATG skills discussion.

Here are other videos, let me know what you think:

Spoiler:

Lanier- Wow. This surprised me and was very impressive. GOAT midrange big? After Hakeem, I may have been most impressed by his display of everything. And he had athleticism to boot. I like the way he posts up and uses his length to grab the ball in the other direction far from his body. And what he a touch he had. Seriously, I had no idea that Lanier was this versatile, or this good.

Indeed, Lanier was really skilled player. Very underrated from historical perspective.

Jokic- I don’t get why people are mentioning him. He’s obviously versatile, but he has such clumsy footwork, high dribbling, and looks slow/clumsy like Embiid when scoring. I think that he gets dismantled by any of the most elite guys here. The rest are battle tested. I get that he’s the new car right now, but wouldn’t include him. The only thing he has over Hakeem is his unusual passing ability.

Strongly disagree with you. Jokic is not athletic and that's why he doesn't look as pretty as Hakeem or Kareem, but his footwork is very good especially in the post. He uses high dribbling but it doesn't change the fact that he has really good handles for a big. I mean, Adrian Dantley also used high dribble and only a fool wouldn't call him skilled. On top of that, Jokic is decent shooter and amazing passer.

Arvydas- I was happy you mentioned him as when I made this thread, I wanted to see how many would mention him vs Jokic as it’s a testament to equality over eras. They were similar. That said, Sabonis is also unathletic and slow like Jokic. I don’t think that he’s in the Kareem Hakeem and now IMO Lanier tier.

Watch Sabas from Europe then, he was quite an athlete before injuries.

Duncan- obviously a contender in the comparison. He was great but had limited moves and footwork compared to Hakeem and Kareem. For me, I have him in the top of the next group of guys. But once again, that’s my opinion. I just think of Kareem and Hakeem as the two skilled freaks, and will have to watch more Lanier video because damn.

Duncan wasn't as quick as Hakeem, but that's the main difference between them. I don't think that Duncan's footwork is limited at all.