Pushing the defender with your off hand : Kawhi vs Luka in game 4

[leolozon]

I understand that every ball handler is using his off hand in some sort of way to get separation, but there's a point where it's so egregious, that the refs should call it. The difference to me is : pushing a defender in position in front of you (especially while extending the arm) VS pushing a defender who's trying to recuperate. Kawhi and Luka in game 4 were good examples of that. To me Kawhi is way above the line of what can be called acceptable. (I think Kawhi and Lebron are the two guys using their off hand in the most obvious way right?)

Luka usually uses his off hand when a defender tries to put a hand on him once he is already beaten, then Doncic will slap the hand away. Or he'll nudge a defender bodying him while they're running side by side. So he'll generally push someone behind him/beside him who's trying to recuperate and touches him first. While Kawhi will often push away a defender who's in front him or use his off hand to get free in the first place. Who's touching the other first is important.

Kawhi, to me 2 obvious offensive fouls and 1 maybe :

0:33 : pushes DFS blatantly with a full arm swing that helps him get open. Could be close, because DFS does put a hand near him, but he doesn't touch him and he's in front. I don't really mind the no call on that one.
1:50 : pushes Kleber who was in front of him, arm extends, Kleber falls down
2:20 : pushes Kleber who was in front of him, arm extends and it's not subtle

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Luka, to me 1 not so obvious offensive fouls and 1 that could be close to the line :

2:22 : hooks Lou Will, should be a foul, but it happens so fast and it's subtle, so I understand why the refs would miss it.
3:10 : nudges PG away with his elbow while they're running side by side. Could be a foul, but PG is also bodying him. I personally don't think this should get called
3:20 : Kawhi uses his left hand to try to slow down Doncic who's getting passed him, Doncic tries to push the hand away. It's fine to me as Kawhi puts his hand on him first.
4:40 : once again, Doncic is in front of the defender (Green?) who puts a hand on him, Doncic pushes his hand away. Looks fine to me.
4:44 : Luka feels a hand on him and pushes it away. In fact, Lou Will comes back and keeps putting his hands on him.

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Any opinion on the matter? Do you agree that while they can't call it every time an offensive player uses his off hand, some instance are more problematic than others?

[Dr Aki]

Paul George, James Harden do this a lot as well.

Once the arm comes away from the body and pushes the defender backwards, that should be an offensive foul.

Quite literally, invading the defenders cylinder

[prophet_of_rage]

As long as the off hand doesn't fully extend it is tough to call. Kawhi is much stronger than Luka and Lebron stronger than Kawhi so the same movement displaces defenders easier.

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[Karate Diop]

These are the Real Jordan Rules that Jordan Only Fans don't like to talk about...

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[Texas Chuck]

As long as the off hand doesn't fully extend it is tough to call. Kawhi is much stronger than Luka and Lebron stronger than Kawhi so the same movement displaces defenders easier.

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Yep Kawhi is a tank and does a great job of not extending his arm much. Not surprised he's not called for a lot of offensive fouls. It's frustrating watching as a fan of his opponent, but mostly I feel the refs are correct to let it go.

Now fwiw, during the end of game report from game 4, the league did acknowledge they missed an offensive foul by Kawhi on Kleber on one of these, but mostly it seems fine.

Now Maxi refuses to flop, but I wish he'd spend some time with Barea because I think he could get some calls if he was willing to exaggerate the contact, but that's just not who he is. Barea would be flying back 25 feet screaming like he was shot.

[kingr]

There was one push off from Kawhi in the 4th quarter that was so blatant, that it made me question my own sense of the rules. I started thinking that pushing off was legal now.
Edit: it was the 2:20 one.
I wouldn't call 0:33 a foul. That looked fine.

[Bankai]

Paul George, James Harden do this a lot as well.

Once the arm comes away from the body and pushes the defender backwards, that should be an offensive foul.

Quite literally, invading the defenders cylinder

Harden is the greatest abuser of this. I remember a regular game possession years ago against the Raptors when the Rockets were #1 in the West and the Raptors were #1 in the East. Harden was on top of the key being ISO guarded by Fred Van Vleet. Harden tries to go left, Fred stays with him, so Harden pushes him with his offhand, then Harden backs up, tries to go right, again Van Vleet stays with him, so Harden again pushes him, and brings the ball back out. Harden, clearly frustrated, goes straight now at Van Vleet and pushes him off again, but this time Harden steps back and drains a 3. People were looking at the Refs going, "how about an offensive foul call?"

Ill be honest, I would hate having Harden on my team. I just dont like the way he plays.

[GoBobs]

Really the whole getting into the body of a shot blocker is all about committing an offensive foul to get a shot off. It shouldn’t be legal with the arm shoulder or whatever to barrel into the chest of a defender and then get the shot off while he is off balance.

But it is hard to call, in the nba offensive players get the benefit of the doubt any time there is contact. The really savy offensive guys like harden can actually keep two hands on the ball and use one of the arms to push or hook.

[KqWIN]

IMO, this is the most OP tactics in the game today. Giannis is probably the best at it. I feel like the defender gets called for fouls more than the offensive player in these situation. As a defender, you must beat them to the spot. But the forearm gives the ball handler a cone around them that the defender must also beat to the spot which is wholly unfair.

[WarriorGM]

There should be a lot more offensive fouls called in general.

[Ambrose]

Kawhi gets away with a lot and gets a ton of respect from refs.

[sikma42]

On defense Kawhi does a judo palm thrust towards his opponents shoulder. Ive never seen someone get away with it.

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[dacrusha]

And you wonder why everyone cries that floppers exist... it’s because refs don’t call these as obvious offensive fouls and defensive players have to resort to massively embellishing to get the calls they deserve.

[Dennis 37]

1:50 : pushes Kleber who was in front of him, arm extends, Kleber falls down
2:20 : pushes Kleber who was in front of him, the arm extends and it's not subtle

These two should have been called. I see that called in many games not involving top 5 players.

[Dennis 37]

And you wonder why everyone cries that floppers exist... it’s because refs don’t call these as obvious offensive fouls and defensive players have to resort to massively embellishing to get the calls they deserve.

This exactly. Flopping is a symptom.

[leolozon]

And you wonder why everyone cries that floppers exist... it’s because refs don’t call these as obvious offensive fouls and defensive players have to resort to massively embellishing to get the calls they deserve.

It also shows the next generation that they can get away with it. When the young guys see what the veterans can get away with, they'll copy it for sure. Winning is what matters the most.

[Dennis 37]

Kawhi gets away with a lot and gets a ton of respect from refs.

I was really funny the shock on his face when he didn't get star calls at the start of his Raptor year. The market, one is in, does effect the calls one gets. Rights holders want an all LA Conference final.

[E-Balla]

Paul George, James Harden do this a lot as well.

Once the arm comes away from the body and pushes the defender backwards, that should be an offensive foul.

Quite literally, invading the defenders cylinder

Harden is the greatest abuser of this. I remember a regular game possession years ago against the Raptors when the Rockets were #1 in the West and the Raptors were #1 in the East. Harden was on top of the key being ISO guarded by Fred Van Vleet. Harden tries to go left, Fred stays with him, so Harden pushes him with his offhand, then Harden backs up, tries to go right, again Van Vleet stays with him, so Harden again pushes him, and brings the ball back out. Harden, clearly frustrated, goes straight now at Van Vleet and pushes him off again, but this time Harden steps back and drains a 3. People were looking at the Refs going, "how about an offensive foul call?"

Ill be honest, I would hate having Harden on my team. I just dont like the way he plays.

I remember when Harden went off against Memphis last year he was looking like prime Earl Campbell out there.

This is one of those rules the NBA now completely ignores to make it easier for guys to average an efficient 30 ppg. I hate it, especially remembering how often Melo and basically everyone but LeBron used to have this get called 10 years ago.

[leolozon]

Paul George, James Harden do this a lot as well.

Once the arm comes away from the body and pushes the defender backwards, that should be an offensive foul.

Quite literally, invading the defenders cylinder

Harden is the greatest abuser of this. I remember a regular game possession years ago against the Raptors when the Rockets were #1 in the West and the Raptors were #1 in the East. Harden was on top of the key being ISO guarded by Fred Van Vleet. Harden tries to go left, Fred stays with him, so Harden pushes him with his offhand, then Harden backs up, tries to go right, again Van Vleet stays with him, so Harden again pushes him, and brings the ball back out. Harden, clearly frustrated, goes straight now at Van Vleet and pushes him off again, but this time Harden steps back and drains a 3. People were looking at the Refs going, "how about an offensive foul call?"

Ill be honest, I would hate having Harden on my team. I just dont like the way he plays.

I remember when Harden went off against Memphis last year he was looking like prime Earl Campbell out there.

This is one of those rules the NBA now completely ignores to make it easier for guys to average an efficient 30 ppg. I hate it, especially remembering how often Melo and basically everyone but LeBron used to have this get called 10 years ago.

I'm not sure it's that recent. I remember Jordan using it often in the 90s.

[E-Balla]

Harden is the greatest abuser of this. I remember a regular game possession years ago against the Raptors when the Rockets were #1 in the West and the Raptors were #1 in the East. Harden was on top of the key being ISO guarded by Fred Van Vleet. Harden tries to go left, Fred stays with him, so Harden pushes him with his offhand, then Harden backs up, tries to go right, again Van Vleet stays with him, so Harden again pushes him, and brings the ball back out. Harden, clearly frustrated, goes straight now at Van Vleet and pushes him off again, but this time Harden steps back and drains a 3. People were looking at the Refs going, "how about an offensive foul call?"

Ill be honest, I would hate having Harden on my team. I just dont like the way he plays.

I remember when Harden went off against Memphis last year he was looking like prime Earl Campbell out there.

This is one of those rules the NBA now completely ignores to make it easier for guys to average an efficient 30 ppg. I hate it, especially remembering how often Melo and basically everyone but LeBron used to have this get called 10 years ago.

I'm not sure it's that recent. I remember Jordan using it often in the 90s.

Well the same way LeBron didn't get it called it's because he was the best. The issue now is every all star gets away with it. Back in the day you had to be Shaq, LeBron, Jordan to get calls that blatant. Now anyone scoring 20 ppg can consistently get those calls and even some rookies (RJ, Zion, and Ja got away with some bad ones).