How many titles would Jordan have won with a team like the 1986-87 bulls

Lukeem · Post #1 » by **Lukeem** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:53 am

C - corizine/ cureton
Pf- Oakley / sellers
Sf - Banks / turner
Sg - Jordan / Myers
Pg - Paxson / threatt

The Centers corizine and cureton were a bit older than Jordan and everyone else so assuming they are replaced by similar talents Or at least levels. Let’s say like a Benoit Benjamin and Tony massenberg sometime in the 90s take over.

How many championships do you think this team goes on to win?

I’d pretty confidently say 0 championships maybe they are able to sneak one in like dirk did.

If you agree with that, does it mean Jordan was any worse of a player ?

If not and you’re a Jordan fan how does the 6 championships as a basis for a goat argument make any sense? Please help me understand this logic?

Because I believe Jordan is 1 of the 3 goats. But this rationale makes no sense to me And I often find myself arguing with Jordan fans because either there is a logic in this winning aspect that I’m not understanding or because they are such homers they use nonsense.

jerok · Post #2 » by **jerok** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:11 am

We'll never know.
MJ is incredible, so athletic ahead of his time, I can see him getting a couple at least.

MJ is the GOAT but he had help.
MJ delusionals might say, well he made Scottie pippen, he can make anyone of those guys Pippen.
Cause Pippen apparently had no god given skills, MJ made him. SO by that logic I would say 6 titles since he made another Pippen.

OriginalRed · Post #3 » by **OriginalRed** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:24 am

None.

Jordan needed help just as much as anyone else did in NBA history. Basketball is a team game and you need sufficient components to win an NBA championship. A lone superstar carrying a horrific team to an NBA title is extremely scarce if not outright impossible.

Why you bother wasting your time arguing with people who try to deny such a simple concept is beyond me.

Clutch0z24 · Post #4 » by **Clutch0z24** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:27 am

How many would LBJ win without teaming up with top 5 Players in the NBA? That is your answer

Lukeem · Post #5 » by **Lukeem** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:51 am

Clutch0z24 wrote:How many would LBJ win without teaming up with top 5 Players in the NBA? That is your answer

1-2 ? I know kyrie and love where nowhere near top 5 players... AD debatable 4-8 range or so

But that bulls team was worse than lakers or cavs. That’s why they constantly got swept out of the first round... the 2007 Cavs would be a better comparison than second run with cavs

Drygon · Post #6 » by **Drygon** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:14 am

0 titles.

The Eastern Conference in late 80s had 2 legendary all-time great teams in Boston Celtics & Detroit Pistons.

MJ was best player in NBA, although his supporting cast was garbage.

Lukeem wrote:
Clutch0z24 wrote:How many would LBJ win without teaming up with top 5 Players in the NBA? That is your answer

1-2 ? I know kyrie and love where nowhere near top 5 players... AD debatable 4-8 range or so

But that bulls team was worse than lakers or cavs. That’s why they constantly got swept out of the first round... the 2007 Cavs would be a better comparison than second run with cavs

Kyrie was top 2 point guard in NBA & was 2nd best player in NBA Finals 2016. And AD is 100% top 5 player without doubt.

The 2007 Cavs was a title contender & best team in the East, it's doesn't make sense comparing them with 1986-87 Bulls.

Sublime187 · Post #7 » by **Sublime187** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:20 am

Well they will practice against him so they will all become Pippens. So 1 MJ plus 4 Pippens equal success I suppose.

triple_threat · Post #8 » by **triple_threat** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:24 am

Drygon wrote:0 titles.

The Eastern Conference in late 80s had 2 legendary all-time great teams in Boston Celtics & Detroit Pistons.

MJ was best player in NBA, although his supporting cast was garbage.

Lukeem wrote:
Clutch0z24 wrote:How many would LBJ win without teaming up with top 5 Players in the NBA? That is your answer

1-2 ? I know kyrie and love where nowhere near top 5 players... AD debatable 4-8 range or so

But that bulls team was worse than lakers or cavs. That’s why they constantly got swept out of the first round... the 2007 Cavs would be a better comparison than second run with cavs

Kyrie was top 2 point guard in NBA & was 2nd best player in NBA Finals 2016. And AD is 100% top 5 player without doubt.

The 2007 Cavs was a title contender & best team in the East, it's doesn't make sense comparing them with 1986-87 Bulls.

Riding lebrons cottails doesnt make you top 2 pg. The knock on kyrie is his iso style of ball which doesnt make his teammates better, which is a bad thing at the pg position. His defense leaves a lot to be desired too. I see a glorified (mostly by lebron haters) starbury as a more accurate player comp in terms of impact (not playstyle).

Post #9 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:25 am

Basketball is a team game. I don't see how it's an indictment on jordan if he didn't win a title with a legitimately **** team around him.

Lukeem · Post #10 » by **Lukeem** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:27 am

Drygon wrote:0 titles.

The Eastern Conference in late 80s had 2 legendary all-time great teams in Boston Celtics & Detroit Pistons.

MJ was best player in NBA, although his supporting cast was garbage.

Lukeem wrote:
Clutch0z24 wrote:How many would LBJ win without teaming up with top 5 Players in the NBA? That is your answer

1-2 ? I know kyrie and love where nowhere near top 5 players... AD debatable 4-8 range or so

But that bulls team was worse than lakers or cavs. That’s why they constantly got swept out of the first round... the 2007 Cavs would be a better comparison than second run with cavs

Kyrie was top 2 point guard in NBA & was 2nd best player in NBA Finals 2016. And AD is 100% top 5 player without doubt.

The 2007 Cavs was a title contender & best team in the East, it's doesn't make sense comparing them with 1986-87 Bulls.

Ad is worse than kawhi Giannis and lebron

He’s in the harden, lillard, luka range with others.

Also below curry and durrant in normal years

At least 5 pgs finished ahead of kyrie in mvp voting in 2016. And everyone of them is and was a better player

In fact since 2013 there have been 11 pgs finish in top 10 for mvp voting. None of which have been kyrie

Lukeem · Post #11 » by **Lukeem** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:30 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:Basketball is a team game. I don't see how it's an indictment on jordan if he didn't win a title with a legitimately **** team around him.

It’s not nor his his 6 chips a direct correlation of his greatness

Just as it’s not an accurate way to measure any individuals greatness

Post #12 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:49 am

Lukeem wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:Basketball is a team game. I don't see how it's an indictment on jordan if he didn't win a title with a legitimately **** team around him.

It’s not nor his his 6 chips a direct correlation of his greatness

Just as it’s not an accurate way to measure any individuals greatness

I mean that’s just called looking at context when evaluating players which is always important.

Magic Is Magic · Post #13 » by **Magic Is Magic** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:55 am

Is Phil Jackson his coach too? MJ was incapable of getting out of the 1st round without both so it's hard for me to put a lot of stock in MJ without Pippen and Jackson on the team too.

Homer38 · Post #14 » by **Homer38** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:54 am

Clutch0z24 wrote:How many would LBJ win without teaming up with top 5 Players in the NBA? That is your answer

Wade was not longer a top 5 player in 2012 and 2013....Kyrie and Love have never been

Clutch0z24 · Post #15 » by **Clutch0z24** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:05 am

Homer38 wrote:
Clutch0z24 wrote:How many would LBJ win without teaming up with top 5 Players in the NBA? That is your answer

Wade was not longer a top 5 player in 2012 and 2013....Kyrie and Love have never been

Wade was the 2nd best SG in the league when LBJ paired with him and Bosh was arguably the best PF in the NBA when LBJ paired with him and he was the best player in the league arguably when he paired with them...And he still choked to a Mavs team with Dirk and bunch of journeymen at that point in their careers...

LBJ always had 2 really good stars to play with him....Jordan only had 1 In Pippen and he still made it look easy dominating everyone ...

LBJ Even with the most help he could have still found a way to choke 2 finals vs Spurs and Mavs ....

WHITE_HOT_HEAT · Post #16 » by **WHITE_HOT_HEAT** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:41 am

He wouldn't win any, but that's not an indictment on Jordan. Basketball is a team game.

picko · Post #17 » by **picko** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:49 am

That team wouldn't win any titles. It'd be remarkable if they ever got to the Conference Finals.

Jordan has a poor playoff record when his team doesn't have superior talent and that 1986-87 team would rarely, if ever, have superior talent in the playoffs.

Petergrifindor · Post #18 » by **Petergrifindor** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:32 am

No matter who you are, you need teammates that perform at high level to win a ring.

One year Jason Terry and JJ Barea might be enough if the bring their A++ games when it matters. Names are not as important as how they perform.

Every championship team needs that.

Homer38 · Post #19 » by **Homer38** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:15 am

Clutch0z24 wrote:
Homer38 wrote:
Clutch0z24 wrote:How many would LBJ win without teaming up with top 5 Players in the NBA? That is your answer

Wade was not longer a top 5 player in 2012 and 2013....Kyrie and Love have never been

Wade was the 2nd best SG in the league when LBJ paired with him and Bosh was arguably the best PF in the NBA when LBJ paired with him and he was the best player in the league arguably when he paired with them...And he still choked to a Mavs team with Dirk and bunch of journeymen at that point in their careers...

LBJ always had 2 really good stars to play with him....Jordan only had 1 In Pippen and he still made it look easy dominating everyone ...

LBJ Even with the most help he could have still found a way to choke 2 finals vs Spurs and Mavs ....

That's not it you said .... You asked how many rings LeBron had without a top 5 player and he has at least 3, since Wade was not longer a top 5 player in 2012 and 2013 and LBJ won 4 titles and 4 FMVP since his awful finals in 2012.

Jordan was a complete loser without Pippen.

Read on Twitter

jozef · Post #20 » by **jozef** » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:13 pm

Basketball is a team sport. Players and coaches.
As far as championships, It is a size of help, winning dominance and competition what matter in GOAT talk.
But MJ was the GOAT even without rings. Athleticism and skills in incomparable pack.
Also Pippen and Horace Grant grew alongside Jordan, they were Bulls rookies. Scottie was not even an All-Star in 1991. Horace was an All-Star in 1994. Rodman was All-Star in 1992, not in his Bulls run.

Look at LeBron's help, look at their level in season PRIOR to joining with him:
Dwayne Wade was All-NBA First Team in 2010. Chris Bosh was in midst of his 11 All-Star appearences. Look at NBA Player Efficiency in 2010: #1 L.James #2 D.Wade #3 K.Durant #4 C.Bosh...
Kevin Love was 3-time NBA All-Star and All-NBA 2nd Team in 2014, Player Efficiency in 2014: #1 K.Durant #2 L.James #3 K.Love... And 21-year old Kyrie Irving was MVP of All-Star Game in 2014.
25-year old Anthony Davis 3-time All-NBA First team, 6-time NBA All-Star (2017 MVP). NBA Career Player Efficiency: #1 M.Jordan #2 L.James #3 A.Davis...

I guess if Dominique Wilkins would have power to unite with two All-Stars in 80's we could compare Lebron to him.
Say at age of 25 (1985) Dominique would leave Atlanta to Lakers (Magic, Jabbar) or Celtics (Bird, McHale), at age of 29 (1989) he would go the Jazz (Malone, Stockton) or Suns (K.Johnson, Chambers), and at age of 34 (1994) he would go to Rockets (Olajuwon). I see 4 rings there.

How many chips does Jordan win without a roster upgrade from 86-87