Who's higher on your all times list. KD or Dr. J ?

mdonnelly1989 · Post #1 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Wed Jul 7, 2021 8:02 pm

Jaivl · Post #2 » by **Jaivl** » Wed Jul 7, 2021 8:15 pm

Dr. J although I'm low on him.

Stalwart · Post #3 » by **Stalwart** » Wed Jul 7, 2021 8:17 pm

Dr. J

Cavsfansince84 · Post #4 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Wed Jul 7, 2021 8:43 pm

Even if KD had played in 90+% of his team's games over the last 7 years I'm not sure I'd have him ahead of Dr. J right now. I don't think I would.

70sFan · Post #5 » by **70sFan** » Wed Jul 7, 2021 8:51 pm

Julius - much better longevity and I prefer his prime and peak as well. Just smarter and more versatile player in my opinion.

Jaivl · Post #6 » by **Jaivl** » Wed Jul 7, 2021 9:24 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:Even if KD had played in 90+% of his team's games over the last 7 years I'm not sure I'd have him ahead of Dr. J right now. I don't think I would.

I would, but it would be close. Right now it is not.

KobesScarf · Post #7 » by **KobesScarf** » Wed Jul 7, 2021 9:37 pm

Dr J is better at everything except scoring(in the half court)

Stalwart · Post #8 » by **Stalwart** » Wed Jul 7, 2021 10:07 pm

Jaivl wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:Even if KD had played in 90+% of his team's games over the last 7 years I'm not sure I'd have him ahead of Dr. J right now. I don't think I would.

I would, but it would be close. Right now it is not.

Nah its pretty close. I would say KD has probably had a better NBA career so far. I give Dr. J alot of credit for his ABA career so I still have him ahead. But imagine if Durant gets past the Bucks and goes on to win the title, you don't think he moves past Dr. J?

Cavsfansince84 · Post #9 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Wed Jul 7, 2021 10:23 pm

Stalwart wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:Even if KD had played in 90+% of his team's games over the last 7 years I'm not sure I'd have him ahead of Dr. J right now. I don't think I would.

I would, but it would be close. Right now it is not.

Nah its pretty close. I would say KD has probably had a better NBA career so far. I give Dr. J alot of credit for his ABA career so I still have him ahead. But imagine if Durant gets past the Bucks and goes on to win the title, you don't think he moves past Dr. J?

I think that depends in part in how it happens. I think he'd need a minimum of Kyrie to come back strong to win a title and maybe both he and Harden. Even so, Dr. J's longevity is still too much for him to overcome with just that playoff run along with Dr. J being to me a much better chemistry guy and probably a better overall defender over the course of his prime. In terms of career, Dr. J played in 1243 games and made 1st/2nd all league 12 times. KD is only at 884 games played and 9 all league. I think that peak Dr. J was likely more dominant as well.

ceiling raiser · Post #10 » by **ceiling raiser** » Thu Jul 8, 2021 6:02 am

KD. Dr. J I have concerns about how he would translate into the modern game. If it was just playstyle preferences it would be a much different decision, but I think the overall talent level and metagame changes league-wide make me feel a lot more comfortable with KD.

feyki · Post #11 » by **feyki** » Thu Jul 8, 2021 6:08 am

I have Doc at 18 and KD at 20th spot. One more even at least all-nba level of year makes KD jump in front of him, career-wise.

70sFan · Post #12 » by **70sFan** » Thu Jul 8, 2021 7:51 am

fpliii wrote:KD. Dr. J I have concerns about how he would translate into the modern game. If it was just playstyle preferences it would be a much different decision, but I think the overall talent level and metagame changes league-wide make me feel a lot more comfortable with KD.

What concerns do you have about him translating into modern game?

Dutchball97 · Post #13 » by **Dutchball97** » Thu Jul 8, 2021 8:23 am

I expected to be in the minority but I didn't think it'd be this lopsided. It's kinda blatant how some current players are being underrated simply because of their unlikeable personality. I'm not saying having Dr J over KD is a wrong take but I'm very surprised at people trying to insinuate KD doesn't even come close to Dr J.

KD often gets flack for being inconsistent in the play-offs, while Dr J is even more up and down in the post-season. Yes Erving has better longevity but that comes from his 5 ABA seasons, remove those and the minutes line up but KD has a massive WS and VORP advantage. I also have a hard time seeing how any NBA version of Dr J peaked higher than KD. With the ABA we have to acknowledge that the league wasn't far behind the NBA anymore in the mid 70s but we also have to take into account how even the mid 70s NBA was a low point in league history. Dr J putting up those numbers in the mid 70s ABA is much less impressive than KD putting up arguably better numbers in a much more competitive environment.

That does bring me to how difficult it still is to accurately value the ABA. Clearly Dr J's 75/76 season is the most dominant season between the two relative to competition but is it only better than KD's peak because the competition was that much weaker or would it still hold up regardless in a tougher era/league?

GSP · Post #14 » by **GSP** » Thu Jul 8, 2021 8:47 am

Dutchball97 wrote:I expected to be in the minority but I didn't think it'd be this lopsided. It's kinda blatant how some current players are being underrated simply because of their unlikeable personality. I'm not saying having Dr J over KD is a wrong take but I'm very surprised at people trying to insinuate KD doesn't even come close to Dr J.

KD often gets flack for being inconsistent in the play-offs, while Dr J is even more up and down in the post-season. Yes Erving has better longevity but that comes from his 5 ABA seasons, remove those and the minutes line up but KD has a massive WS and VORP advantage. I also have a hard time seeing how any NBA version of Dr J peaked higher than KD. With the ABA we have to acknowledge that the league wasn't far behind the NBA anymore in the mid 70s but we also have to take into account how even the mid 70s NBA was a low point in league history. Dr J putting up those numbers in the mid 70s ABA is much less impressive than KD putting up arguably better numbers in a much more competitive environment.

That does bring me to how difficult it still is to accurately value the ABA. Clearly Dr J's 75/76 season is the most dominant season between the two relative to competition but is it only better than KD's peak because the competition was that much weaker or would it still hold up regardless in a tougher era/league?

The Pc board is generally low on Kd with quite a few posters being vocally anti-Kd. A lot of ppl were mad and baffled when Elgee (Thinking Basketball) rated him very highly during his Backpicks project then getting included in the peaks project as well even tho Elgees evaluation was more in line with non Pc board views on Kd altho that crowd generally rates him higher. He's def surpassed Kobe/Wilt as the most polarizing player in the Pc board. I don't think Kg is that polarizing here anymore seems most have the higher opinion of him at this point

70sFan · Post #15 » by **70sFan** » Thu Jul 8, 2021 9:13 am

In contrast to many people, I remain quite high on Doctor after watching dozens of full games from his prime.

His boxscore stats aren't always the highest, but it's because of Sixers team structure - outside of 1980 and 1981 Julius never played in an NBA team where he was by far clear first option on offense, which caused his raw stats to drop.

In the late 70s, he had to share the ball with McGinnis, Collins, Free and Bibby. This team wasn't built around Julius strengths, it was a collection of ball-dominant players and Erving adjusted his game for them, not the other way around.

After 1981, Julius wasn't the clear first option on offense either. He played more of an all-around forward archetype in 1982 and after Moses arrival, he became more of a defensive specialist and secondary scorer.

It's not coincidence that he averaged by far the most points in the NBA in 1980, when Sixers didn't have any high volume scorers around him. It's also not surprising that Julius had probably his best NBA season in the exact same season. Julius needed space and needed the ball to be maximized (even though he was good off-ball player).

Durant had much more favorable situation throughout his career. It's not a knock on him and some may use it as an evidence of KD portability, but I don't think it's that easy.

It all depends on how high you are on Julius ABA years (I am very high) and how high you are on his NBA peak (I am, I have 1980 probably right at the same level as Durant's peak).

Colbinii · Post #16 » by **Colbinii** » Thu Jul 8, 2021 1:04 pm

GSP wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:I expected to be in the minority but I didn't think it'd be this lopsided. It's kinda blatant how some current players are being underrated simply because of their unlikeable personality. I'm not saying having Dr J over KD is a wrong take but I'm very surprised at people trying to insinuate KD doesn't even come close to Dr J.

KD often gets flack for being inconsistent in the play-offs, while Dr J is even more up and down in the post-season. Yes Erving has better longevity but that comes from his 5 ABA seasons, remove those and the minutes line up but KD has a massive WS and VORP advantage. I also have a hard time seeing how any NBA version of Dr J peaked higher than KD. With the ABA we have to acknowledge that the league wasn't far behind the NBA anymore in the mid 70s but we also have to take into account how even the mid 70s NBA was a low point in league history. Dr J putting up those numbers in the mid 70s ABA is much less impressive than KD putting up arguably better numbers in a much more competitive environment.

That does bring me to how difficult it still is to accurately value the ABA. Clearly Dr J's 75/76 season is the most dominant season between the two relative to competition but is it only better than KD's peak because the competition was that much weaker or would it still hold up regardless in a tougher era/league?

The Pc board is generally low on Kd with quite a few posters being vocally anti-Kd. A lot of ppl were mad and baffled when Elgee (Thinking Basketball) rated him very highly during his Backpicks project then getting included in the peaks project as well even tho Elgees evaluation was more in line with non Pc board views on Kd altho that crowd generally rates him higher. He's def surpassed Kobe/Wilt as the most polarizing player in the Pc board. I don't think Kg is that polarizing here anymore seems most have the higher opinion of him at this point

We are comparing Durant to a popular Top 20 player of all-time.

I dont think this board is particularly low on Kevin Durant, at least not as much as the General Board. We have a few posters who are immature and spite him for his decision to join the Warriors, flood the General Discussion Thread with infactual rhetoric about how "LOADED" the Nets were once Irving went down while a 1-legged Harden was supposed to be enough to beat Milwaukee.

I'd have him around Top 23-24 off the top of my head, in a tier ranging from likely 15-25.

Jaivl · Post #17 » by **Jaivl** » Thu Jul 8, 2021 4:24 pm

Yeah Durant is my #22 right now and I have stated he would be my #16 if he was healthy, if I recall correctly.

Not sure how that's low.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #18 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Thu Jul 8, 2021 6:46 pm

GSP wrote:
The Pc board is generally low on Kd with quite a few posters being vocally anti-Kd. A lot of ppl were mad and baffled when Elgee (Thinking Basketball) rated him very highly during his Backpicks project then getting included in the peaks project as well even tho Elgees evaluation was more in line with non Pc board views on Kd altho that crowd generally rates him higher. He's def surpassed Kobe/Wilt as the most polarizing player in the Pc board. I don't think Kg is that polarizing here anymore seems most have the higher opinion of him at this point

I don't agree with the overall narrative you are shaping here. KD is just one of many players that posters on here have varying opinions on. It's a matter of what criteria people favor, their opinion of how much credit he deserves for his two title runs, what they think of his decision to go there along with their opinion on what he brings to a team chemistry wise. There's a lot there to look at. More so than with most players. I don't think being low on him means people are anti KD. They are just looking at his overall career and being lower on him than others who may not care about certain things as much. That's my .02. Saying people are anti KD to me makes it seem like people are low on him relative to some other players for entirely irrational or emotional reasons which is not really accurate imo. It just depends on what criteria you favor. KD does have his weaknesses on his resume compared to other top 25 players.

KobesScarf · Post #19 » by **KobesScarf** » Thu Jul 8, 2021 7:05 pm

fpliii wrote:KD. Dr. J I have concerns about how he would translate into the modern game. If it was just playstyle preferences it would be a much different decision, but I think the overall talent level and metagame changes league-wide make me feel a lot more comfortable with KD.

I thinnlk Durant would have just as much trouble translating to Dr J's era

Tha King · Post #20 » by **Tha King** » Thu Jul 8, 2021 7:33 pm

Just had a quick look at the stats between the two in the NBA, and surprisingly, Durant's 4th (VORP), 5th (BPM), 6th (WS/48), and 9th (PER) best years in each respective category would be bests for Erving. Did a quick look at Durant and Bird too out of curiosity and similar situation: 2nd (VORP), 3rd (BPM), 5th (WS), and 3rd (PER). [then also looked at Lebron and KD but the comps weren't as favorable for this discussion lol ]. And that's with Durant losing two prime years to injury and his best statistical years (RS) being in OKC. When you move off numbers, you're talking about Durant being arguably the best all-around scorer in league history and a versatile defender.

So all that to say, I don't think the comparison is as lopsided as the result so far.