Moderator: ijspeelman
PaKii94 wrote:Hi guys,
Can y'all summarize for me how Garland's career has gone so far on the Cavs? As a Vandy alum, I badly wanted him for the bulls over Coby white. Coming into the draft, my concern was his size and his ability to play defense due to his size. But since we saw Trae young blow up, I was a bit less concerned.
Now that Lauri's on your team. I am invested in Garland again since he'll be the PG responsible for getting Lauri the ball
JonFromVA wrote:PaKii94 wrote:Hi guys,
Can y'all summarize for me how Garland's career has gone so far on the Cavs? As a Vandy alum, I badly wanted him for the bulls over Coby white. Coming into the draft, my concern was his size and his ability to play defense due to his size. But since we saw Trae young blow up, I was a bit less concerned.
Now that Lauri's on your team. I am invested in Garland again since he'll be the PG responsible for getting Lauri the ball
He was getting overpowered by bigger guards and/on switches last season, but showed improvement on D, gave effort, and exhibited some smarts in terms of being where he needed to be.
As a PG he's making solid progress, his court vision has been solid. He had a nice 2-man game going with Allen. He's been working on a floater, but needs to work more on just finishing. His dribble is very good and he uses change of pace. He's a talented shooter, but you can see him dial it back when his shot isn't falling.
Some wonder if he just needs to assert himself more. For instance, he's been a better 3pt shooter than Trae Young but because he doesn't keep constant pressure on the defense with the threat of that shot like Young does he may be giving up the chance for easier assists and drives.
Otoh, our floor spacing has been terrible, so, when our guards drive they have to deal with multiple defenders at the rim.
I think it's all related and as his shot becomes more consistent his confidence will improve and with decent floor spacing his game should really open up for him.
PaKii94 wrote:JonFromVA wrote:PaKii94 wrote:Hi guys,
Can y'all summarize for me how Garland's career has gone so far on the Cavs? As a Vandy alum, I badly wanted him for the bulls over Coby white. Coming into the draft, my concern was his size and his ability to play defense due to his size. But since we saw Trae young blow up, I was a bit less concerned.
Now that Lauri's on your team. I am invested in Garland again since he'll be the PG responsible for getting Lauri the ball
He was getting overpowered by bigger guards and/on switches last season, but showed improvement on D, gave effort, and exhibited some smarts in terms of being where he needed to be.
As a PG he's making solid progress, his court vision has been solid. He had a nice 2-man game going with Allen. He's been working on a floater, but needs to work more on just finishing. His dribble is very good and he uses change of pace. He's a talented shooter, but you can see him dial it back when his shot isn't falling.
Some wonder if he just needs to assert himself more. For instance, he's been a better 3pt shooter than Trae Young but because he doesn't keep constant pressure on the defense with the threat of that shot like Young does he may be giving up the chance for easier assists and drives.
Otoh, our floor spacing has been terrible, so, when our guards drive they have to deal with multiple defenders at the rim.
I think it's all related and as his shot becomes more consistent his confidence will improve and with decent floor spacing his game should really open up for him.
Hmmm sounds like he's developing like I expected him to. Do you have any insight to his improvement post all star break last year? Was it more opportunities or a lack of other options? Were there injuries?
Garland is also fast, like De’Aaron Fox fast. When he got the ball off a fast break, which happened a lot, considering his 1.2 steals per game average, he was a borderline lock to outrun any would-be defenders for a layup, hook, or even dunk in the paint.
Yes, you read that correctly; Garland can dunk at 6-foot-1.
JonFromVA wrote:For chuckles, here's a an article about why the Sixers should trade Simmons for Darius Garland ... I'm a DG fan ... but you'd think Winston Garland wrote it.
https://section215.com/2021/10/19/philadelphia-76ers-darius-garland-trade/
I mean, what the heck is this?Garland is also fast, like De’Aaron Fox fast. When he got the ball off a fast break, which happened a lot, considering his 1.2 steals per game average, he was a borderline lock to outrun any would-be defenders for a layup, hook, or even dunk in the paint.
Yes, you read that correctly; Garland can dunk at 6-foot-1.
MrSparkle wrote:I don't see a scenario here or there where Lauri becomes the "7-pick we thought he could be." If you remove his 3P ability, he's worse than Felicio by a mile.
12/2/2022
I like the quote- it makes me chuckle. And it was/is pretty much true.
FranchisePlayer wrote:JonFromVA wrote:For chuckles, here's a an article about why the Sixers should trade Simmons for Darius Garland ... I'm a DG fan ... but you'd think Winston Garland wrote it.
https://section215.com/2021/10/19/philadelphia-76ers-darius-garland-trade/
I mean, what the heck is this?Garland is also fast, like De’Aaron Fox fast. When he got the ball off a fast break, which happened a lot, considering his 1.2 steals per game average, he was a borderline lock to outrun any would-be defenders for a layup, hook, or even dunk in the paint.
Yes, you read that correctly; Garland can dunk at 6-foot-1.
Well, to be fair, he's done it. Maybe not in a high-style fashion but he's managed to pull it off. Although that wasn't something I'd brag about if I was his agent. Check out at 1:45.
The RingerDarius Garland Is Pretty Damn Special
The NBA’s next great guard can be found in Cleveland. As the injuries have piled up for the Cavaliers, Darius Garland has proved to be an outlier capable of just about anything.
It’s easy to forget sometimes, given the remarkable and near-instantaneous success that players like Trae Young, Luka Doncic, Ja Morant, and LaMelo Ball have experienced in recent years, but being a young point guard in the NBA is hard. Like, really, really hard.
As it turns out, Darius Garland looks pretty damn special.
The Cavs are one of the 2021-22 NBA season’s best stories, sitting just a game and a half out of first place in the East at 30-19 after Wednesday’s decisive smackdown of the defending champion Bucks. Their 22-year-old lead guard is a huge reason, averaging 19.7 points on a .575 true shooting percentage to go with 8.2 assists (sixth most in the NBA), 3.3 rebounds, and 1.3 steals in 34.7 minutes per game as the engine of a Cleveland offense that’s ranked just outside the top 10 in points scored per possession since Thanksgiving. The list of players who’ve averaged 19 and 8 by Garland’s age while shooting as efficiently as he is boasts only five names: Magic Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Chris Paul, Luka, and Trae.
Garland was already starting to blossom early in the season, as Cleveland began looking like a team poised to outperform pundits’ predictions. As the campaign has worn on, though, and injuries started to shred the Cavs’ backcourt rotation—a torn meniscus for Collin Sexton, a torn ACL for Rubio—his game has grown even further to fill the voids they’ve left behind.
During this recent stretch, Garland has averaged more touches per game than Doncic and Harden, and held on to the ball longer than Trae and Ja. Part of that’s out of necessity; until an emergency trade for Rajon Rondo, the injury-riddled Cavs didn’t have another viable ball handler to turn to (with apologies to Kevin Pangos). Part of it, though, is because Garland’s been so good at keeping the trains running on time that Bickerstaff has justifiably wanted the ball in his hands as much as humanly possible.
Already one of the league’s highest-volume drivers, Garland’s averaging nearly 18 forays to the paint per game since Rubio’s injury; only Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Ja Morant, Luka Doncic, and Trae Young have averaged that many over the full season. That persistent dribble penetration collapses opposing defenses, opening the door for the lobs that Garland loves to throw to Allen and Mobley, slick drop-offs to attentive cutters, and kickout passes to waiting shooters on the perimeter.
Dealing with a point guard who can puncture your coverage and spray passes all over the court is tough enough; covering one who can also get his own shot from anywhere can be downright impossible. Despite his recent shooting dip, Garland’s become that kind of ulcer-inducer, a threat to both launch from super deep—only Trae, Stephen Curry, and Damian Lillard have taken more 30-footers this season, and Garland’s made them more often (43.2 percent) than all of them—and to leverage the fear of those bombs to get into the underbelly of the defense and find something tasty.
And if you manage to avoid the blow-by and the stop-and-pop, and stay attached to his rolling big to prevent the easy lob over the top? Bad news: You’ve just given him the runway to get to his lethal, floater/runner game—shots released from all angles that are gently finding the bottom of the net nearly 53 percent of the time.
The growth shows in the quieter aspects of Garland’s facilitating, too. It’s in the quick hit-ahead passes off of a defensive rebound, helping find early offense and easy buckets for an athletic young team that can struggle to score in the half court. It’s in understanding the importance of rewarding his bigs, who’ve been the backbones of Cleveland’s no. 3-ranked defense, when they run the floor, duck in for deep seals on defenders in the paint, and roll hard to the rim.
And increasingly, as opponents start focusing their game plans more on keeping Garland from going off, it’s in having the patience to accept double-teams and traps and just move the ball, trusting in his teammates to serve as release valves who can keep the offense rolling.
JonFromVA wrote:GQ has an interview with Darius:
https://www.gq.com/story/darius-garland-interview-2022
I think it hits on some important points about development of a young player, about how Darius gaining confidence was a process that included multiple steps, how having veterans on the team helped him learn leadership and how bringing in veteran PGs helped him learn the game much deeper, how he adds to his game by watching other players current and past.
When you draft players who love to play ball and are willing to work hard to get good, this is the sort of payoff you hope to see whether it's sooner or later; but it's not just the player - you need the right people around the player to help him.
JonFromVA wrote:Here's a fun chart the Ringer published in a recent Garland article they did, showing the top shooters on 30ft+ shots:
https://stathead.com/tiny/YMhxE
At the moment, it shows Darius is 4th in 30fters attempted (behind Trae, Steph, and Dame), but basically leads the league shooting a ridiculous 42.2% on them.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/1/28/22905100/darius-garland-cleveland-cavaliers?utm_campaign=theringer&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
That just screams we need to get this kid some open shots and/or he needs to get to work in the off-season adding some moves to create his own.
Part of what makes our big lineup work is Darius's (and Ricky's) ability to operate in a clogged up paint and still keep their options open while keeping the defense off-balance. That realization should either lead us to improve our floor spacing, or add other scorers who can cope similarly. It's not enough to just be able to get by your man like Collin can do, or to move & slash like Cedi and Isaac can do ... against a set defense we need guys who can hold on to their dribble in a crowd.
Which is not to say there isn't a place for other types of scorers, but just that they should be getting involved after the defense is in scramble mode.
Something to watch with Goodwin and Rondo in the short-term as they'll presumably be getting more run with the starters.
KuruptedCav wrote:JonFromVA wrote:Here's a fun chart the Ringer published in a recent Garland article they did, showing the top shooters on 30ft+ shots:
https://stathead.com/tiny/YMhxE
At the moment, it shows Darius is 4th in 30fters attempted (behind Trae, Steph, and Dame), but basically leads the league shooting a ridiculous 42.2% on them.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/1/28/22905100/darius-garland-cleveland-cavaliers?utm_campaign=theringer&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
That just screams we need to get this kid some open shots and/or he needs to get to work in the off-season adding some moves to create his own.
Part of what makes our big lineup work is Darius's (and Ricky's) ability to operate in a clogged up paint and still keep their options open while keeping the defense off-balance. That realization should either lead us to improve our floor spacing, or add other scorers who can cope similarly. It's not enough to just be able to get by your man like Collin can do, or to move & slash like Cedi and Isaac can do ... against a set defense we need guys who can hold on to their dribble in a crowd.
Which is not to say there isn't a place for other types of scorers, but just that they should be getting involved after the defense is in scramble mode.
Something to watch with Goodwin and Rondo in the short-term as they'll presumably be getting more run with the starters.
This is the reason I’ve wanted a big (relatively 6’3”-6’5”) traditional PG brought in to play the off-guard position. Rubio, and then when he went down I was a fan of CJ McCollum, Derrick White, DeAngelo Russell, etc. someone who can handle the rock and let Darius play an off-ball role while being able to punish them if someone chases to 30+ feet.
I think you can make up some of the spacing need in the aggregate if the player you bring in/develop can open up Darius.
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jbk1234 wrote:KuruptedCav wrote:JonFromVA wrote:Here's a fun chart the Ringer published in a recent Garland article they did, showing the top shooters on 30ft+ shots:
https://stathead.com/tiny/YMhxE
At the moment, it shows Darius is 4th in 30fters attempted (behind Trae, Steph, and Dame), but basically leads the league shooting a ridiculous 42.2% on them.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/1/28/22905100/darius-garland-cleveland-cavaliers?utm_campaign=theringer&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
That just screams we need to get this kid some open shots and/or he needs to get to work in the off-season adding some moves to create his own.
Part of what makes our big lineup work is Darius's (and Ricky's) ability to operate in a clogged up paint and still keep their options open while keeping the defense off-balance. That realization should either lead us to improve our floor spacing, or add other scorers who can cope similarly. It's not enough to just be able to get by your man like Collin can do, or to move & slash like Cedi and Isaac can do ... against a set defense we need guys who can hold on to their dribble in a crowd.
Which is not to say there isn't a place for other types of scorers, but just that they should be getting involved after the defense is in scramble mode.
Something to watch with Goodwin and Rondo in the short-term as they'll presumably be getting more run with the starters.
This is the reason I’ve wanted a big (relatively 6’3”-6’5”) traditional PG brought in to play the off-guard position. Rubio, and then when he went down I was a fan of CJ McCollum, Derrick White, DeAngelo Russell, etc. someone who can handle the rock and let Darius play an off-ball role while being able to punish them if someone chases to 30+ feet.
I think you can make up some of the spacing need in the aggregate if the player you bring in/develop can open up Darius.
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DLo can't defend a chair and White is plain awful on offense. I'm all for spending Dan Gilbert's money rehabbing Rubio for most of next season, as his floor vision and passing ability makes up for some of his limitations offensively. But the Cavs are eventually going to need a two-way guard who can shoot out of that position.
I don't want to trade Okoro or the No. 14 pick for guys we know aren't that.
KuruptedCav wrote:jbk1234 wrote:KuruptedCav wrote:
This is the reason I’ve wanted a big (relatively 6’3”-6’5”) traditional PG brought in to play the off-guard position. Rubio, and then when he went down I was a fan of CJ McCollum, Derrick White, DeAngelo Russell, etc. someone who can handle the rock and let Darius play an off-ball role while being able to punish them if someone chases to 30+ feet.
I think you can make up some of the spacing need in the aggregate if the player you bring in/develop can open up Darius.
Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app
DLo can't defend a chair and White is plain awful on offense. I'm all for spending Dan Gilbert's money rehabbing Rubio for most of next season, as his floor vision and passing ability makes up for some of his limitations offensively. But the Cavs are eventually going to need a two-way guard who can shoot out of that position.
I don't want to trade Okoro or the No. 14 pick for guys we know aren't that.
I get what you are saying, I disagree with the premise that a two-way playmaking SG who can rain 3s will come available without parting with Mobley or Garland. There is a reason that player has been absent from the Cavs… forever.
It’s more probable to find a quality PG who can guard the 2 and play Darius off-ball than it is to find a unicorn.
And just for fun: https://www.twincities.com/2021/11/30/quarterbacking-the-timberwolves-improved-defense-is-dangelo-russell/amp/
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jbk1234 wrote:KuruptedCav wrote:jbk1234 wrote:
DLo can't defend a chair and White is plain awful on offense. I'm all for spending Dan Gilbert's money rehabbing Rubio for most of next season, as his floor vision and passing ability makes up for some of his limitations offensively. But the Cavs are eventually going to need a two-way guard who can shoot out of that position.
I don't want to trade Okoro or the No. 14 pick for guys we know aren't that.
I get what you are saying, I disagree with the premise that a two-way playmaking SG who can rain 3s will come available without parting with Mobley or Garland. There is a reason that player has been absent from the Cavs… forever.
It’s more probable to find a quality PG who can guard the 2 and play Darius off-ball than it is to find a unicorn.
And just for fun: https://www.twincities.com/2021/11/30/quarterbacking-the-timberwolves-improved-defense-is-dangelo-russell/amp/
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Look at the date of the article. It was written a month into last season. I haven't done a deep dive into what his advanced numbers look like all season long, but my eyes tell me he's a bad defender, and in your scenario he's guarding the other team's best guard.
He's not even that good offensively, his 3 point% last year was worse than Okoro's, he's pretty high usage, he's rarely healthy, and he's on a max deal thereby destroying any cap space we'd have in the summer of 2023.
This would be LeVert all over again. The Wolves would love to dump him just for future cap space right now. There's a reason for that. The Cavs need to stop wasting picks and future cap on guys with serious flaws in their games, especially ones who are 26 and over. They are who they are.
We don't know who Okoro might develop into or who the the guy selected at No. 14 might be. We know that unless we sign Sexton to an unmovable deal, we'll have a good chunk of cap space next summer. We don't know who might be available.
KuruptedCav wrote:jbk1234 wrote:KuruptedCav wrote:
I get what you are saying, I disagree with the premise that a two-way playmaking SG who can rain 3s will come available without parting with Mobley or Garland. There is a reason that player has been absent from the Cavs… forever.
It’s more probable to find a quality PG who can guard the 2 and play Darius off-ball than it is to find a unicorn.
And just for fun: https://www.twincities.com/2021/11/30/quarterbacking-the-timberwolves-improved-defense-is-dangelo-russell/amp/
Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app
Look at the date of the article. It was written a month into last season. I haven't done a deep dive into what his advanced numbers look like all season long, but my eyes tell me he's a bad defender, and in your scenario he's guarding the other team's best guard.
He's not even that good offensively, his 3 point% last year was worse than Okoro's, he's pretty high usage, he's rarely healthy, and he's on a max deal thereby destroying any cap space we'd have in the summer of 2023.
This would be LeVert all over again. The Wolves would love to dump him just for future cap space right now. There's a reason for that. The Cavs need to stop wasting picks and future cap on guys with serious flaws in their games, especially ones who are 26 and over. They are who they are.
We don't know who Okoro might develop into or who the the guy selected at No. 14 might be. We know that unless we sign Sexton to an unmovable deal, we'll have a good chunk of cap space next summer. We don't know who might be available.
Plenty of articles, since, highlighting his defense throughout the year, and I’m not sure I follow how a 1yr $30 million player messes with 2023. But one name in a list. Replace with Malcolm Brogdon.
I also don’t see Altman changing his stripes and accepting the level of risk that comes with Love, Cedi, Sexton, LeVert hitting free agency. Striking out could look a lot like Larry Hughes.
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jbk1234 wrote:KuruptedCav wrote:jbk1234 wrote:
Look at the date of the article. It was written a month into last season. I haven't done a deep dive into what his advanced numbers look like all season long, but my eyes tell me he's a bad defender, and in your scenario he's guarding the other team's best guard.
He's not even that good offensively, his 3 point% last year was worse than Okoro's, he's pretty high usage, he's rarely healthy, and he's on a max deal thereby destroying any cap space we'd have in the summer of 2023.
This would be LeVert all over again. The Wolves would love to dump him just for future cap space right now. There's a reason for that. The Cavs need to stop wasting picks and future cap on guys with serious flaws in their games, especially ones who are 26 and over. They are who they are.
We don't know who Okoro might develop into or who the the guy selected at No. 14 might be. We know that unless we sign Sexton to an unmovable deal, we'll have a good chunk of cap space next summer. We don't know who might be available.
Plenty of articles, since, highlighting his defense throughout the year, and I’m not sure I follow how a 1yr $30 million player messes with 2023. But one name in a list. Replace with Malcolm Brogdon.
I also don’t see Altman changing his stripes and accepting the level of risk that comes with Love, Cedi, Sexton, LeVert hitting free agency. Striking out could look a lot like Larry Hughes.
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When it comes to F.A., f you tell yourself you can't have nice things, then you won't have nice things. But just leaving a maxish slot available will get articles written, agents talking, and potential free agents thinking about joining a team where the average starter's age is 23 and they're good. Players want to get paid and they want to win. Those are the two most important criteria. Even a guy like Cam Payne, as a zero cost addition, would be a nice add.
But even if the Cavs strike out, they can always trade the cap space for an expiring player. After the summer of 2024, we won't have cap space again so it won't matter. Once we extend Mobley, that's it. We'll be a an over-cap team for as long as Allen, Garland, and Mobley on are the squad. We have a window here. We're an attractive roster to potential FAs and we'll have space.
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