76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

Moderators: bisme37, zimpy27, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77, Harry Garris, ken6199, infinite11285, Domejandro

User avatar
AlexanderRight
Junior
Posts: 422
And1: 504
Joined: Aug 26, 2020
     

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1001 » by AlexanderRight » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:06 pm

Pointgod wrote:
AlexanderRight wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
Billionaires or anybody with a degree of financial success probably didn't get where they are by flushing money down the toilet or letting assets devalue needlessly.

At some point they're going to cut their losses and move on.

Holding your own franchise hostage to make a point would just be foolish.

Better you do it yourself then to let someone take hostage of you. Am I right? At this point his value can only get higher. Make it clear, announce to the media that he won’t get traded until he sees court time. If Ben never suits up, whatever losses you think the owner will have, Simmons losses will be greater. He’ll have to dig into the luxury tax to make up for the dead weight on the cap in order to keep the team competitive but the money the owner will lose in the short term is nothing compared to the money and leverage he and the owners will lose if they give in to this one man. At this point, principle, respect and setting precedence for the future matters more than the money(which he has a lot of).


That’s not how this works, it’s not how any of this works.

Wow, what a fantastic rebuttal. Idk how I’m gonna be able to refute such a strong and detailed response. Guess owners now are gonna have to pay employees for not working because “that’s not how this works”…
User avatar
Nate505
RealGM
Posts: 11,000
And1: 8,396
Joined: Oct 29, 2001
Location: Denver, CO
       

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1002 » by Nate505 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:51 pm

UtahJazzFan88 wrote:Don’t understand why Kyrie & Simmons are involved in a trade or some sort of 3 or 4 team deal.

Probably because nobody wants Simmons right now, at least unless they're giving up negative assets for him.

He's a talented player for sure, but he also has quite a few flaws, and his "intangibles" right now are at a shockingly negative point. What does he bring to the table? Someone who will pout and sit out if things don't go his way? Who wants to deal with that?
User avatar
azcatz11
RealGM
Posts: 13,542
And1: 16,260
Joined: Apr 13, 2017
Location: Phoenix
 

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1003 » by azcatz11 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:51 pm

I'm still dying to know what high level billionaire Tomjas has worked for and knows their inner workings so well...
Duke4life831
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 31,171
And1: 55,525
Joined: Jun 16, 2015
 

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1004 » by Duke4life831 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:29 pm

azcatz11 wrote:
Tomjas wrote:
AlexanderRight wrote:Far more richer than a guy worth 7 billion? When you’re that successful there is no “heading south”. He’s too high for any one person to bring down. From his business perspective, more is lost giving in to this failed hostage attempt and you can believe all the owners are on the same page on that. If you think these guys are just gonna sit and let these kids take their money for nothing I want some of what you’re smoking.


There’s always somebody more powerful


So what billionaire did you work for where you know how they operate?


I don’t know how many times I’ve told Tomjas to keep our workings together private…
User avatar
Nuntius
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 18,457
And1: 14,073
Joined: Feb 28, 2012
   

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1005 » by Nuntius » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:32 pm

K3nny Pow3rs wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
K3nny Pow3rs wrote:That's not my evaluation its just Philly's potential evaluation. It would be dependent on Simmons having a half-decent jump shot, and I haven't seen enough of him shooting to know that.

But if Philly has assessed that, having watched him practice everyday for years - that he's a great shooter in practice or shows promise - that would be something only Philly's coaching staff or front office could assess.

They may think its highly unlikely, because they may not believe he'll ever want to attempt shots in games, but they may be aware that if he ever decided to attempt shots that he'd become a half-decent shooter (for another team).....and they would feel like fools if that happened, unless they trade him for a very big piece.

My evaluation is that I'd want to see him shoot with his right-hand, before evaluating his potential. JJ Redick said he mentioned it to Simmons, but decided not to push Simmons on that idea, because he saw that Simmons was shooting well-enough with his left-hand. Redick probably made a huge mistake, and that's no surprise, because Redick sounds extremely unwise in his podcast. I think shooting with his right-hand may be the key psychologically to Simmons attempting more shots, not just making shots.


The team definitely knows more than us, fans, but there is an overwhelming amount of data that points to Simmons actually regressing as a shooter over the years instead of progressing. Could he still turn it around? Sure, crazier things have happened but I wouldn't bet on it.

Regardless, though, my evaluation of Simmons isn't all that relevant to this thread. It's a different discussion.

The game data is irrelevant, because he was hardly attempting any shots in his earlier years either (even though he was attempting more). And nearly all his 3-point-attempts were from halfcourt on buzzers.
The only relevant data (in terms of measuring his shooting skills) is in practice, because he doesn't have a psychological problem in practice.
One thing is for sure, the Ben Simmons you see in games has nothing to do with the Ben Simmons in practice.
Neither of us would make bets, because neither of us can measure his shooting skill or forecast what his right-hand can do.


I'm not talking solely about 3s, though. I'm talking about any kind of jump shot beyond 10 feet. His ability to take and make those shots has consistently regressed throughout the years. Maybe it is indeed due to some kind of psychological problem. Maybe he's shooting with the wrong hand. I don't know. All I know is what the on the court data shows.

And again, this is a completely separate discussion.
"No wolf shall keep his secrets, no bird shall dance the skyline
And I am left with nothing but an oath that gleams like a sword
To bathe in the blood of man
Mankind..."

She Painted Fire Across the Skyline, Part 3
- Agalloch
User avatar
Nuntius
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 18,457
And1: 14,073
Joined: Feb 28, 2012
   

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1006 » by Nuntius » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:44 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
I've never seen a team seemingly try harder to keep a player...but whatever man. We'll agree to disagree I suppose given you can't seem to show any reason why we should ignore everything being said AND done by the 76ers...


I have never seen a team throw their supposed star under the bus so hard but, yeah, we can definitely agree to disagree.


I'm not sure but he can get a lot better and we need to work....is throwing something not just under the bus. But throwing them HARD under the bus...we couldn't have more differing opinions here. If that was throwing him under the bus...my goodness, 99% of coaches are equivalents to murders.


Equivalent to murder? Really? I don't see the need to exaggerate here. We can have a difference of opinion without exaggerating, can't we?

And, yeah, I definitely haven't seen a lot of teams speak like that about their stars. Not playoff teams, at least. Coaches, players, teams and the like usually speak in platitude. They speak in vague terms. "We as a team can do better", "we could have all played harder", yada, yada, yada. That's not what Doc and the rest of Sixers did after their loss. They blamed it on Simmons and I don't blame them for that either. His play deserved these comments but that's how you burn down bridges.
"No wolf shall keep his secrets, no bird shall dance the skyline
And I am left with nothing but an oath that gleams like a sword
To bathe in the blood of man
Mankind..."

She Painted Fire Across the Skyline, Part 3
- Agalloch
Lockdown504090
General Manager
Posts: 8,177
And1: 8,920
Joined: Nov 24, 2015
         

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1007 » by Lockdown504090 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:00 pm

Nuntius wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
I have never seen a team throw their supposed star under the bus so hard but, yeah, we can definitely agree to disagree.


I'm not sure but he can get a lot better and we need to work....is throwing something not just under the bus. But throwing them HARD under the bus...we couldn't have more differing opinions here. If that was throwing him under the bus...my goodness, 99% of coaches are equivalents to murders.


Equivalent to murder? Really? I don't see the need to exaggerate here. We can have a difference of opinion without exaggerating, can't we?

And, yeah, I definitely haven't seen a lot of teams speak like that about their stars. Not playoff teams, at least. Coaches, players, teams and the like usually speak in platitude. They speak in vague terms. "We as a team can do better", "we could have all played harder", yada, yada, yada. That's not what Doc and the rest of Sixers did after their loss. They blamed it on Simmons and I don't blame them for that either. His play deserved these comments but that's how you burn down bridges.
If those comments hurt ben so severely, it begs the question: did he really think his lack of shooting was okay? There needs to a 30/30 on simmons shot in 10 years. to what levels was he being coddled by the brett brown coaching staff and the bryan colangelo front offcice? Ben cant really say doc didnt show him no love when doc tailor made a whole offense for him when embiid went down with intricate screen patters to get him going downhill and make it hard for teams to sag off him.
;t=58s

This might look like freelance basketball, but this is a whole gameplan to give max spacing and early offense for ben to get his game off.
CoP
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,282
And1: 7,317
Joined: May 04, 2017
       

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1008 » by CoP » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:15 pm

K3nny Pow3rs wrote:The game data is irrelevant

The only relevant data (in terms of measuring his shooting skills) is in practice

I guarantee that not a single GM in the league would agree with this ridiculous assertion.
User avatar
K3nny Pow3rs
Senior
Posts: 686
And1: 706
Joined: Jun 10, 2021

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1009 » by K3nny Pow3rs » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:27 pm

CoP wrote:
K3nny Pow3rs wrote:The game data is irrelevant

The only relevant data (in terms of measuring his shooting skills) is in practice

I guarantee that not a single GM in the league would agree with this ridiculous assertion.

I guarantee that every GM in the league would agree that Ben's shooting skill is best assessed in practice, considering he hardly ever attempts a shot in games....
And the fact he doesn't attempt shots in games is a mental issue, not a skill issue.
Image
User avatar
Nuntius
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 18,457
And1: 14,073
Joined: Feb 28, 2012
   

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1010 » by Nuntius » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:34 pm

azcatz11 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
azcatz11 wrote:
It's a hell of a coincidence though that he's going thru all of this now...the same time he wants to be traded.


Dude, all that stuff with his family occurred before the playoffs even begun. It's why some people are saying that this was the cause of his playoff performance. You are way off here, once again.


Correct. But it magically became an issue now lol. So who here is way off?


It didn't become an issue just now, though. That's just when randoms like me and you learned about it. People who have been following this situation a lot more closely have said that this has been an issue ever since before the playoffs.
"No wolf shall keep his secrets, no bird shall dance the skyline
And I am left with nothing but an oath that gleams like a sword
To bathe in the blood of man
Mankind..."

She Painted Fire Across the Skyline, Part 3
- Agalloch
User avatar
azcatz11
RealGM
Posts: 13,542
And1: 16,260
Joined: Apr 13, 2017
Location: Phoenix
 

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1011 » by azcatz11 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:35 pm

Nuntius wrote:
azcatz11 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
Dude, all that stuff with his family occurred before the playoffs even begun. It's why some people are saying that this was the cause of his playoff performance. You are way off here, once again.


Correct. But it magically became an issue now lol. So who here is way off?


It didn't become an issue just now, though. That's just when randoms like me and you learned about it. People who have been following this situation a lot more closely have said that this has been an issue ever since before the playoffs.


Who has said that and I wonder their intentions
bebopdeluxe
RealGM
Posts: 10,253
And1: 3,349
Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Location: philly

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1012 » by bebopdeluxe » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:49 pm

azcatz11 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
azcatz11 wrote:
Correct. But it magically became an issue now lol. So who here is way off?


It didn't become an issue just now, though. That's just when randoms like me and you learned about it. People who have been following this situation a lot more closely have said that this has been an issue ever since before the playoffs.


Who has said that and I wonder their intentions


As a 45+ year Sixers fan who has seen the majority of Simmons’ games since he came into the league, Ben’s shooting issue has been there since he entered the league. It just gets magnified in the playoffs.
User avatar
azcatz11
RealGM
Posts: 13,542
And1: 16,260
Joined: Apr 13, 2017
Location: Phoenix
 

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1013 » by azcatz11 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:51 pm

bebopdeluxe wrote:
azcatz11 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
It didn't become an issue just now, though. That's just when randoms like me and you learned about it. People who have been following this situation a lot more closely have said that this has been an issue ever since before the playoffs.


Who has said that and I wonder their intentions


As a 45+ year Sixers fan who has seen the majority of Simmons’ games since he came into the league, Ben’s shooting issue has been there since he entered the league. It just gets magnified in the playoffs.


I’ve seen your posts and your passion. It’s sad Ben doesn’t respect you as a fan and chooses to hide behind a cloak of MI
User avatar
Nuntius
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 18,457
And1: 14,073
Joined: Feb 28, 2012
   

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1014 » by Nuntius » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:02 am

azcatz11 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
azcatz11 wrote:
Correct. But it magically became an issue now lol. So who here is way off?


It didn't become an issue just now, though. That's just when randoms like me and you learned about it. People who have been following this situation a lot more closely have said that this has been an issue ever since before the playoffs.


Who has said that and I wonder their intentions


There are several people in this thread who have said that this has been an issue ever since before the playoffs. Some of them are Sixer fans as well and they've definitely followed this situation closer than either one of us.
"No wolf shall keep his secrets, no bird shall dance the skyline
And I am left with nothing but an oath that gleams like a sword
To bathe in the blood of man
Mankind..."

She Painted Fire Across the Skyline, Part 3
- Agalloch
User avatar
azcatz11
RealGM
Posts: 13,542
And1: 16,260
Joined: Apr 13, 2017
Location: Phoenix
 

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1015 » by azcatz11 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:09 am

Nuntius wrote:
azcatz11 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
It didn't become an issue just now, though. That's just when randoms like me and you learned about it. People who have been following this situation a lot more closely have said that this has been an issue ever since before the playoffs.


Who has said that and I wonder their intentions


There are several people in this thread who have said that this has been an issue ever since before the playoffs. Some of them are Sixer fans as well and they've definitely followed this situation closer than either one of us.


You mean like the poster pretending to have worked under a billionaire? Uh huh….
User avatar
K3nny Pow3rs
Senior
Posts: 686
And1: 706
Joined: Jun 10, 2021

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1016 » by K3nny Pow3rs » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:23 am

bebopdeluxe wrote:
azcatz11 wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
It didn't become an issue just now, though. That's just when randoms like me and you learned about it. People who have been following this situation a lot more closely have said that this has been an issue ever since before the playoffs.


Who has said that and I wonder their intentions


As a 45+ year Sixers fan who has seen the majority of Simmons’ games since he came into the league, Ben’s shooting issue has been there since he entered the league. It just gets magnified in the playoffs.

Ben's best-ever free-throw shooting was in the playoffs, when he shot .707 (and 5.8 attempts per game) in the 2018 playoffs.

The biggest problem has come since the all-star break 2021....
Before the all-star break, Ben shot 67.1% from the free-throw-line.
After the all-star break, Ben shot 53.3% from the free-throw-line.
Image
bebopdeluxe
RealGM
Posts: 10,253
And1: 3,349
Joined: Jun 27, 2002
Location: philly

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1017 » by bebopdeluxe » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:49 am

K3nny Pow3rs wrote:
bebopdeluxe wrote:
azcatz11 wrote:
Who has said that and I wonder their intentions


As a 45+ year Sixers fan who has seen the majority of Simmons’ games since he came into the league, Ben’s shooting issue has been there since he entered the league. It just gets magnified in the playoffs.

Ben's best-ever free-throw shooting was in the playoffs, when he shot .707 (and 5.8 attempts per game) in the 2018 playoffs.

The biggest problem has come since the all-star break 2021....
Before the all-star break, Ben shot 67.1% from the free-throw-line.
After the all-star break, Ben shot 53.3% from the free-throw-line.


While Simmons' FT shooting was an issue in the playoffs (duh), the bigger issue - which has existed at least since the 2017-18 playoffs - was the simple fact that, in the half-court offense that the playoffs grinds down into, Ben SImmons DOES NOT SHOOT THE BALL.

Teams pack the paint when he has the ball. Simmons' man plays 3-5 feet off of him. You cant run any 2-man action with Simmons and Embiid - it is an IMMEDIATE DOUBLE on Embiid.

I have no flipping idea if the guy can actually shoot. We get these summer pick-up videos where he is jacking 3's. But when he plays GAMES THAT COUNT for the team that gave him a MAX EXTENSION, Ben simply DOES NOT SHOOT THE BALL.
CoP
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,282
And1: 7,317
Joined: May 04, 2017
       

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1018 » by CoP » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:05 am

K3nny Pow3rs wrote:
CoP wrote:
K3nny Pow3rs wrote:The game data is irrelevant

The only relevant data (in terms of measuring his shooting skills) is in practice

I guarantee that not a single GM in the league would agree with this ridiculous assertion.

I guarantee that every GM in the league would agree that Ben's shooting skill is best assessed in practice, considering he hardly ever attempts a shot in games....
And the fact he doesn't attempt shots in games is a mental issue, not a skill issue.

Nice backpedal, and also, still wrong. GMs don't judge primarily by shootarounds for anyone. If Simmons can't handle it mentally during games after several seasons in the league, that's how he is assessed. Not by how many jumpshots he drains in pregame.
NBA Moses
Pro Prospect
Posts: 973
And1: 373
Joined: Mar 07, 2014
       

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1019 » by NBA Moses » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:34 am

Nate505 wrote:
UtahJazzFan88 wrote:Don’t understand why Kyrie & Simmons are involved in a trade or some sort of 3 or 4 team deal.

Probably because nobody wants Simmons right now, at least unless they're giving up negative assets for him.

He's a talented player for sure, but he also has quite a few flaws, and his "intangibles" right now are at a shockingly negative point. What does he bring to the table? Someone who will pout and sit out if things don't go his way? Who wants to deal with that?


Agree Ben Simmons has flaws, free throw yips, reluctance to shoot anything from 10 feet out, And his off court antics are very damaging to his trade value.

That being said imo Bens talent is often underrated. Legit nba Top 10 talent if he gets his mindset right, if the right organization can get through to him.

3x all-star, 2x all nba-defense, 2019-20 all-nba, Rookie of Year.In just 4 seasons he is 13th all-time in triple doubles.Similar early numbers to Oscar Robertson+Magic Johnson.

With so many bad teams in the NBA going nowhere it shocks me that one of those sad-sack teams hasnt given up the goods to get Ben.
User avatar
K3nny Pow3rs
Senior
Posts: 686
And1: 706
Joined: Jun 10, 2021

Re: 76ers back to fining Ben Simmons 

Post#1020 » by K3nny Pow3rs » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:54 am

CoP wrote:
K3nny Pow3rs wrote:
CoP wrote:I guarantee that not a single GM in the league would agree with this ridiculous assertion.

I guarantee that every GM in the league would agree that Ben's shooting skill is best assessed in practice, considering he hardly ever attempts a shot in games....
And the fact he doesn't attempt shots in games is a mental issue, not a skill issue.

Nice backpedal, and also, still wrong. GMs don't judge primarily by shootarounds for anyone. If Simmons can't handle it mentally during games after several seasons in the league, that's how he is assessed. Not by how many jumpshots he drains in pregame.

Backpedal? I've been saying this every since I joined Realgm....he doesn't shoot enough in games, so nobody knows what kind of shooter he is.
All we know is, he has a mental problem, and that is why he can make 70% of free-throws in the 2018 playoffs, 67% of free-throws in the first half of the 2020-21 season, and then collapse at other times.... Its all mental.
GMs aren't as dumb as you think.... they know which players are suffering mentally, and its very obvious in Ben's case.
Image

Return to The General Board