Raps get both Wall and Gordon

[slos]

A bit complicated deal between Toronto and Houston...

Trade Dragic for Gordon

and (aka Kemba)

Rockets agree to buyout Wall (gives away 6.5 mil), Raptors sign him 2y/6.5mil with the rest of their MLE

Why Raptors? They are too talented to tank for another lottery pick. Siakam is healthy now, time to make a move to compete. That's without wasting assets, just taking back some bad money. Wall (doesn't lose money) fills the Lowry hole in the roster on the cheap, overpaid Gordon can still provide scoring coming from the bench. Toronto will be at 135,444 mil with 13 guaranteed contracts after this, which leaves them some little room to breathe under the tax.

Wall........Flynn.......Blanton
FVV.........Trent.......Svi
OG.........Gordon
Barnes.....Boucher
Siakam....Achiuwa....Birch

Why Rockets? They clear 23 mil in next season's payroll without losing assets. This will allow them work under the cap and get themselves another Wood.

[Xman]

Houston would do it - just to clear up the issues and move on.
TOR would get a Gordon playing well (although strained groin now) and a rested Wall.

[jbk1234]

I'm not sure that Wall agrees to that, but even if he would, that leaves the Rockets on the hook for a lot of money.

I do like the first trade for both teams though.

[slos]

I'm not sure that Wall agrees to that, but even if he would, that leaves the Rockets on the hook for a lot of money.

I do like the first trade for both teams though.

Why wouldn't Wall agree? He won't lose money, he gets out of a bad situation and he will be able to compete again in the East. I can see him killing it in Toronto and get himself another nice payday at 33 y/o. What's not to like for him?

[Texas Chuck]

Well if Houston agrees to buy out Wall giving up that little, problem one is Wall is very likely going to go somewhere else. The Clippers and Nuggets come immediately to mind, but I'm sure the Lakers and Nets can't resist adding another "name" as they never can. I don't see why he necessarily chooses the Raps. And he's definitely not giving them a 2nd cheap year.

Gordon for Dragic is whatever. Houston obviously buys him out too. But I don't know that Gordon moves the needle enough for the Raps to want the extra year.

[Scoot McGroot]

Well if Houston agrees to buy out Wall giving up that little, problem one is Wall is very likely going to go somewhere else. The Clippers and Nuggets come immediately to mind, but I'm sure the Lakers and Nets can't resist adding another "name" as they never can. I don't see why he necessarily chooses the Raps. And he's definitely not giving them a 2nd cheap year.

Gordon for Dragic is whatever. Houston obviously buys him out too. But I don't know that Gordon moves the needle enough for the Raps to want the extra year.

Yeah. Wall’s vet minimum salary is more than $2.5m per year, so it’s not like Toronto is offering him much more than that, and about the same, or even less when accounting for taxes.

Plus, if the Gordon/Dragic swap in any way impacts the buyout and then subsequent signing of Wall, it would be investigated and disallowed by the league, in all likelihood. THe teams could in no way bring it up or mention anything of it whatsoever, or they’d both be fined, penalized, etc and the deal voided.

[mademan]

Gordon's 18 mill next year has a lot of lux tax implications for a player thats not really worth it

[oldncreaky]

Can't see any of it for Toronto.

If Toronto saw any reason for a Dragic-Gordon swap, they would have been interested before they cut Decker to save 1.4M and duck under the tax line. Now that they've cut Decker, they don't need to save the money.

As for playing time, Dragic is 5th or 6th on the depth chart for Toronto's guards, behind (at least) FVV, GTJ, Banton and Flynn. Dragic's main issue is that he can't hang with Toronto's defensive schemes, and Nurse will not play mediocre defenders.. I can't see either Gordon or Wall being any better than Dragic on defence, so they would sit too. I also think Dragic is a better choice as emergency fill-in in case of injuries.

[Scoot McGroot]

Can't see any of it for Toronto.

If Toronto saw any reason for a Dragic-Gordon swap, they would have been interested before they cut Decker to save 1.4M and duck under the tax line. Now that they've cut Decker, they don't need to save the money.

Depending on the specifics of “wins/playoffs/finals” of Trent’s bonus, the team may only be $18k under the luxury tax line with only 14 players under contract. A little more room would always be of benefit in that situation, as it would allow them to eventually call up a developmental guy for the 15th spot, or to sign an injury replacement if they need one.

I can't see either Gordon or Wall being any better than Dragic on defence, so they would sit too. I also think Dragic is a better choice as emergency fill-in in case of injuries.

Both Wall and Gordon have been immensely better defenders their entire careers than Dragic. It was even their calling cards at times in their careers. I imagine they would be MUCH better than Dragic, defensively, and immediately.

[Prokorov]

A bit complicated deal between Toronto and Houston...

Trade Dragic for Gordon

and (aka Kemba)

Rockets agree to buyout Wall (gives away 6.5 mil), Raptors sign him 2y/6.5mil with the rest of their MLE

Why Raptors? They are too talented to tank for another lottery pick. Siakam is healthy now, time to make a move to compete. That's without wasting assets, just taking back some bad money. Wall (doesn't lose money) fills the Lowry hole in the roster on the cheap, overpaid Gordon can still provide scoring coming from the bench. Toronto will be at 135,444 mil with 13 guaranteed contracts after this, which leaves them some little room to breathe under the tax.

Wall........Flynn.......Blanton
FVV.........Trent.......Svi
OG.........Gordon
Barnes.....Boucher
Siakam....Achiuwa....Birch

Why Rockets? They clear 23 mil in next season's payroll without losing assets. This will allow them work under the cap and get themselves another Wood.

I dont get it for the Raptors.

Why do they need this weird move for Wall to compete? they just won 5-6 with Siakim/Barnes in and out of the lineup. They are a lock top 6 team. if they want to really title contend, Wall isnt that type of ceiling raiser.

[oldncreaky]

Can't see any of it for Toronto.

If Toronto saw any reason for a Dragic-Gordon swap, they would have been interested before they cut Decker to save 1.4M and duck under the tax line. Now that they've cut Decker, they don't need to save the money.

Depending on the specifics of “wins/playoffs/finals” of Trent’s bonus, the team may only be $18k under the luxury tax line with only 14 players under contract. A little more room would always be of benefit in that situation, as it would allow them to eventually call up a developmental guy for the 15th spot, or to sign an injury replacement if they need one.

I can't see either Gordon or Wall being any better than Dragic on defence, so they would sit too. I also think Dragic is a better choice as emergency fill-in in case of injuries.

Both Wall and Gordon have been immensely better defenders their entire careers than Dragic. It was even their calling cards at times in their careers. I imagine they would be MUCH better than Dragic, defensively, and immediately.

Under the luxury tax is under, no matter by how much -- and the Toronto FO has been pretty clear about lowering expectations, so playoffs is a maybe, and finals is a pipe dream, so Toronto is under with some flexibility without doing anything.

But the assertion that "Both Wall and Gordon have been immensely better defenders their entire careers than Dragic" is a bit of irrelevant hyperbole I couldn't let pass. Even if they were in the past -- and I don't want to waste the time looking up stats -- neither Gordon nor especially Wall have what it takes to play defence for Toronto. We're talking 2021, not 2017. You'd have a hard time convincing me that either is better than a traffic cone.

To develop young players, you need to play them -- and neither Gordon nor Wall would bring anywhere near enough to the court to justify sitting Banton and Flynn.

[Scoot McGroot]

Can't see any of it for Toronto.

If Toronto saw any reason for a Dragic-Gordon swap, they would have been interested before they cut Decker to save 1.4M and duck under the tax line. Now that they've cut Decker, they don't need to save the money.

Depending on the specifics of “wins/playoffs/finals” of Trent’s bonus, the team may only be $18k under the luxury tax line with only 14 players under contract. A little more room would always be of benefit in that situation, as it would allow them to eventually call up a developmental guy for the 15th spot, or to sign an injury replacement if they need one.

I can't see either Gordon or Wall being any better than Dragic on defence, so they would sit too. I also think Dragic is a better choice as emergency fill-in in case of injuries.

Both Wall and Gordon have been immensely better defenders their entire careers than Dragic. It was even their calling cards at times in their careers. I imagine they would be MUCH better than Dragic, defensively, and immediately.

Under the luxury tax is under, no matter by how much -- and the Toronto FO has been pretty clear about lowering expectations, so playoffs is a maybe, and finals is a pipe dream, so Toronto is under with some flexibility without doing anything.

Hahaha, yes. The tax is an over or under situation. We all know that. But being able to fill the 15th spot is also something that all teams find to be beneficial, so there’s a benefit for Toronto to be under the tax enough to sign that 15th spot. However, Toronto is currently under, with no flexibility. Not until the vet minimum prorates into the last week of the season if Trent hits his bonus.

But the assertion that "Both Wall and Gordon have been immensely better defenders their entire careers than Dragic" is a bit of irrelevant hyperbole I couldn't let pass. Even if they were in the past -- and I don't want to waste the time looking up stats -- neither Gordon nor especially Wall have what it takes to play defence for Toronto. We're talking 2021, not 2017. You'd have a hard time convincing me that either is better than a traffic cone.

You compared him to Dragic, which I answered. Now you’re making a completely different statement. Yes, Toronto plays a specific defense, but if FVV and his body type can fit into Toronto, EJ and Wall could too. Wall has been all defense before. With buyin, I’m sure he will hold play decent defense in Torontos system. It’s a vaunted system that requires buying, but it’s not so insanely difficult that only a few guys can ever play in it. At the least, we KNOW that Gordon and Wall would play defense better than Dragic. No doubt there.

To develop young players, you need to play them -- and neither Gordon nor Wall would bring anywhere near enough to the court to justify sitting Banton and Flynn.

Completely new argument, but yes. You need to play young guys to develop them. But also, if Blanton and Flynn can’t show enough to keep a guy like Wall off the court, then maybe they shouldn’t just be handed minutes either. Is Toronto tanking? Or will Flynn and Blanton have to earn their minutes while competing for a winner?


I’m not even going to say that Toronto should do a deal like this. They shouldn’t. But it’s mostly for financial reasons. And I think EJ still has some talents to offer a competitor. I’m less sure about Wall, but if he’s buying in for a bench spot at essentially the vet minimum, then he probably could help too.

[Laimbeer]

I wouldn't take on that second year of Gordon. And doesn't Wall decide where he goes?

[Apz]

I'm not sure that Wall agrees to that, but even if he would, that leaves the Rockets on the hook for a lot of money.

I do like the first trade for both teams though.

Why wouldn't Wall agree? He won't lose money, he gets out of a bad situation and he will be able to compete again in the East. I can see him killing it in Toronto and get himself another nice payday at 33 y/o. What's not to like for him?

How isnt wall losing money? If he wanted this would alreafy be done, but he got something like a 48m option for next year. He wont get bought out before that option is picked up. In this he does lose over 40m dollars, so it wont happen. Have no idea why he agreed to not play this year, if it had been last year on contract it would have been one thing. If he doesnt play this year i got a hard time to see any other wanting to give him a high enough salary next year for making it worth for houston to buy him out even then

[Scoot McGroot]

I'm not sure that Wall agrees to that, but even if he would, that leaves the Rockets on the hook for a lot of money.

I do like the first trade for both teams though.

Why wouldn't Wall agree? He won't lose money, he gets out of a bad situation and he will be able to compete again in the East. I can see him killing it in Toronto and get himself another nice payday at 33 y/o. What's not to like for him?

How isnt wall losing money? If he wanted this would alreafy be done, but he got something like a 48m option for next year. He wont get bought out before that option is picked up. In this he does lose over 40m dollars, so it wont happen. Have no idea why he agreed to not play this year, if it had been last year on contract it would have been one thing. If he doesnt play this year i got a hard time to see any other wanting to give him a high enough salary next year for making it worth for houston to buy him out even then

If Wall were to entertain a buyout, it would be negotiated from the knowledge that Wall is not opting out of that last year. Same happened with Blake. He’s not giving up that money.

[oldncreaky]

Spoiler:

Depending on the specifics of “wins/playoffs/finals” of Trent’s bonus, the team may only be $18k under the luxury tax line with only 14 players under contract. A little more room would always be of benefit in that situation, as it would allow them to eventually call up a developmental guy for the 15th spot, or to sign an injury replacement if they need one.





Both Wall and Gordon have been immensely better defenders their entire careers than Dragic. It was even their calling cards at times in their careers. I imagine they would be MUCH better than Dragic, defensively, and immediately.

Under the luxury tax is under, no matter by how much -- and the Toronto FO has been pretty clear about lowering expectations, so playoffs is a maybe, and finals is a pipe dream, so Toronto is under with some flexibility without doing anything.

Hahaha, yes. The tax is an over or under situation. We all know that. But being able to fill the 15th spot is also something that all teams find to be beneficial, so there’s a benefit for Toronto to be under the tax enough to sign that 15th spot. However, Toronto is currently under, with no flexibility. Not until the vet minimum prorates into the last week of the season if Trent hits his bonus.

But the assertion that "Both Wall and Gordon have been immensely better defenders their entire careers than Dragic" is a bit of irrelevant hyperbole I couldn't let pass. Even if they were in the past -- and I don't want to waste the time looking up stats -- neither Gordon nor especially Wall have what it takes to play defence for Toronto. We're talking 2021, not 2017. You'd have a hard time convincing me that either is better than a traffic cone.

You compared him to Dragic, which I answered. Now you’re making a completely different statement. Yes, Toronto plays a specific defense, but if FVV and his body type can fit into Toronto, EJ and Wall could too. Wall has been all defense before. With buyin, I’m sure he will hold play decent defense in Torontos system. It’s a vaunted system that requires buying, but it’s not so insanely difficult that only a few guys can ever play in it. At the least, we KNOW that Gordon and Wall would play defense better than Dragic. No doubt there.

To develop young players, you need to play them -- and neither Gordon nor Wall would bring anywhere near enough to the court to justify sitting Banton and Flynn.

Completely new argument, but yes. You need to play young guys to develop them. But also, if Blanton and Flynn can’t show enough to keep a guy like Wall off the court, then maybe they shouldn’t just be handed minutes either. Is Toronto tanking? Or will Flynn and Blanton have to earn their minutes while competing for a winner?


I’m not even going to say that Toronto should do a deal like this. They shouldn’t. But it’s mostly for financial reasons. And I think EJ still has some talents to offer a competitor. I’m less sure about Wall, but if he’s buying in for a bench spot at essentially the vet minimum, then he probably could help too.

That's a lot of writing and straw-man arguments to avoid admitting that your initial take was completely wrong on both counts -- Toronto is under the tax line and therefore doesn't need this deal to duck the tax, and neither Gordon nor Wall would play for Toronto because neither of them can guard anywhere near well enough.

I can accept the idea that Gordon might be -- maybe -- a better defender than a 35-year-old Dragic at this point because he is more switchable, although stats for both are in the same ballpark over the last few years. But since it's been 4 years since Gordon was a plus-defender, and he wouldn't be in Toronto's rotation, it's kinda moot, and definitely not worth tying up $18M next year. As for Wall, GMAFB -- his 2015 all-defense is not a compelling argument when he's played half a season in the last 3 years and looks like he has lost a step, or two, or three. And comparing either of these to FVV based on body type is absurd -- they are traffic cones compared to FVV who also led the league in deflections 2 years running, and is top 5 this year.

It's not 2017. All 3 of Dragic, Gordon and Wall are over-paid minor role players on a contender, and locker-room vets on a young, developing team. Dragic has at least bought into the locker-room role, is expiring, played OK before losing his minutes to the rookie Banton, and is acceptable playing as an injury replacement at either guard spot.

There is just no reason for Toronto to consider this deal.

[Texas Chuck]

I am installing a new board rule. If you accuse someone of using a logical fallacy incorrectly because you simply do not like their opinion or they disagree with you, that's going to be a timeout. Repeat offenses will be board warnings.

We can disagree with each other without resorting to that. Really annoying. A different opinion than yours is not a straw man.

[Godaddycurse]

Rather give the minutes to young/cheap players. Not interested in eating Gordon's 2nd year

[Mr Swagtastic]

If Toronto could get John Wall to agree to sign here after the buyout is the only way Toronto would even consider doing this deal. Like others have said I think he might go to another team and there's a few of them that come to mind I think that would want to snatch him up first Milwaukee could use another guard the Lakers would just sign him because of his name so would Brooklyn and then you have teams like Philadelphia who can use a guard Denver can you use them on a one-year deal Golden State might take a run at him and so would the Clippers.

If Toronto did do that deal and just got Eric Gordon for Goran Dragic and was stuck with Gordon's contract then it would be looked at a massive failure for Toronto. Paying Trent Jr and Gordon that kind of money for the next few years is horrendous for your shooting guard position.