best offensive peak: lebron James vs Stephen curry

[falcolombardi]

strictly offensively which one reached higher heights as far as offensive value goes?

and how would it stack up compared to the likes of shaq, jordan, magic, nash or bird?

[1993Playoffs]

I value playoffs. I’d take most healthy LeBron prime seasons offensively over Curry. He’s just harder to stop in the playoffs

[No-more-rings]

Lebron pretty easily.

[Cavsfansince84]

LeBron's peak offense against top defenses in the playoffs puts him in another tier imo(even without looking at defense). Strictly looking at regular seasons I might put Steph 2016 ahead for offense.

[Outside]

Depends on your criteria. LeBron obviously has the better box score stats, but it becomes less clear who to pick if you consider overall offensive creation and off-ball impact. The problem is that it's difficult to properly quantify overall offensive creation and off-ball impact, and that's an area where Curry is significantly better than LeBron.

[Whopper_Sr]

2017 LeBron is the GOAT offensive peak.

[No-more-rings]

2017 LeBron is the GOAT offensive peak.

What makes it any better than 2018 Lebron?

[Whopper_Sr]

2017 LeBron is the GOAT offensive peak.

What makes it any better than 2018 Lebron?

Motor. 2018 is up there as well but he went all in on offense that season. It's very close but still reasonable to say he wouldn't be able to replicate his 2018 production on O if he hadn't completely mailed it in on D. Team construction certainly did play a significant role though.

I'd still take 17 over 18 by a hair for offense only. A year younger, got to the rim easier, shot career high from 3 in the playoffs, etc.

[Djoker]

Lebron's individual offensive production is more resilient in the playoffs but I think I'd give a small edge to Curry because of his gravity that doesn't even show up on the stat sheet but has a huge positive effect on his team.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think Lebron is a better bet. His ability to floor-raise offenses, I think allows for him to help more random teams out and lead them to championship heights. For example in 41 games without Wade, the Miami Heat had a 8.5 rORTG, which is fantastic.

Looking further at their offensive peaks in the PS...

Lebron (PS Peaks)
3-year PS ScoreVal-2.3
3-year PS PlayVal-2.5 (#1 all-time)
3-year Backpicks OBPM-7.3

Best 3-year PS Offense-rOrtg of 9.4


Steph (PS Peaks)
3-year PS ScoreVal-1.9
3-year PS PlayVal-1.3
3-year Backpicks OBPM-5.5

Best 3-year PS Offense lead-rOrtg of 7.5


From the box-score numbers, Lebron has a sizeable lead over Steph. Steph's argument would be that to measure his gravity and spacing he provides for teammates is difficult, and therefore these numbers can't properly capture what Steph brings to a team. There is truth to that, but how much can we give credit to Steph as a creator for something that Steph is also an all-timer at. I think it is fair to say Lebron is a top 3-5 playmaker ever, so is Steph in that stratosphere with his off-ball gravity? It takes a pretty big leap for me to believe that Steph's offensive gravity can cover th difference in what shows up through the numbers, as LBJ is such a prominent creator.

Furthermore, even should we assume Steph is in the same tier of creator as Lebron, there is still some room between their scoring. Lebron has 5 3-YEAR STRETCHES, of a ScoreVal of 2 or higher, and this gives me further confidence in his ability as a scorer than Steph. Steph's way to make up for this would be an off-ball savant who fits more easily with players, however, I am still not certain that buoys him to Lebron level offensively. Lebron has 4 3-YEAR STRETCHES of an rORTG above 8, and generally has lead better team offenses when he runs the point.

The final thing to add regarding the argument is that Steph is often noted for being able to fit in more easily to other schemes, but on the other hand, I do think there are benefits to being able to carry a heavier offensive load. For instance, Stephen Curry's peak 3-year offensive load (an estimate of the number of a player a player is “directly involved” in on offense every 100 possessions) is 49.4. That is a historically high mark, however has 9 3-YEAR stretches higher than this, and that number would likely be greater if he weren't tasked with doing less in Miami.

Michael Jordan is another comparable to Lebron in offensive load, and I believe the benefits of these players are that they can take the consistent PS grind of having an abnormal amount of their team's offense ran through them. I feel like the floor with Lebron running an offense is higher, and therefore makes him a better bet.

[feyki]

Probably the two best players of the most inflated era(16/21). But peak wise, Doncic surpassed both with putting 38,5 PPG, 11 APG with +9 rOrtg against the best team of the playoffs(in the 6 games of the 7 games series). Thanks to inflation.

[Gregoire]

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Lebron
Curry
Shaq

[cpower]

For the data and metric we have today Lebron has a slight lead over Stephen but things may change in 20 years. We will enter a time when AI analyzes every tape and put a number around all the plays and you might find Stephen come ahead in a few peak seasons..we will have to wait and see.

[No-more-rings]

Is Steph’s offense clearly better than Dirk or Kobe? He probably gets the edge for me but I don’t consider Dirk or Kobe anywhere near Lebron’s offensive peak.

[jalengreen]

Is Steph’s offense clearly better than Dirk or Kobe? He probably gets the edge for me but I don’t consider Dirk or Kobe anywhere near Lebron’s offensive peak.

To me, yeah definitely.

[HeartBreakKid]

Poll is close but only one poster barely gave it to Curry. Some people are being shy!

[No-more-rings]

Is Steph’s offense clearly better than Dirk or Kobe? He probably gets the edge for me but I don’t consider Dirk or Kobe anywhere near Lebron’s offensive peak.

To me, yeah definitely.

How big is the gap though? I've generally found those 2 to be a tad more resilient in the playoffs, though i guess Curry's gravity makes up for it.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Answering the 2nd part of your question.

I think there Lebron's offensive peak can be in the same room as anyone's.

For me Curry is maybe a top 5 offensive guy ever. I would put MJ, Magic, Nash, and LBJ ahead. And then Curry would be fighting with Shaq, (and maybe Jokic though I would like to see more of him), for the 5th spot. I think Curry's PS scoring is more resilient then someone like Bird's, although maybe playing with KD is clouding my judgement for how good of a scorer Curry is. I think Curry's gravity is a real thing and is something that makes it so that his creation for teammates is greater than Bird's likely. Shaq I have more faith in as a PS interior force, who gets opposing centers in foul trouble. And Jokic is a wildcard, because I believe maybe he does belong with the top 4 guys I spoke about, however I would like to see him against some more tough PS defenses. However, to me, I think of Jokic being very similar to Bird on offense, however Jokic plays in an era more advantageous for offensive brilliance, along with being a better finisher and interior force than Bird.

[ty 4191]

Probably the two best players of the most inflated era(16/21). But peak wise, Doncic surpassed both with putting 38,5 PPG, 11 APG with +9 rOrtg against the best team of the playoffs(in the 6 games of the 7 games series). Thanks to inflation.

How do you compute +rOrtg in the playoffs?

Thanks!

Also how do you define and quantify/compute "inflation'"?

[feyki]

Probably the two best players of the most inflated era(16/21). But peak wise, Doncic surpassed both with putting 38,5 PPG, 11 APG with +9 rOrtg against the best team of the playoffs(in the 6 games of the 7 games series). Thanks to inflation.

How do you compute +rOrtg in the playoffs?

Thanks!

Also how do you define and quantify/compute "inflation'"?

I did not calculate it. Doncic's Oliver's OffRtg was 120,3 in the Clips series, except the game of their loss by 25 and Clips Oliver's TmDrtg were 111,2, it's +9 rOrtg.

I'd look at just based on possesions defence/offence when evaluate/define the offences/defences. Rebounding has no relation with poss defence. So, when you look at TS% and TOV%, then you have OffPossRtg. There are the ratings of the last 20 years:

2022 - 111,7
2021 - 117,0
2020 - 115,2
2019 - 114,6
2018 - 113,2
2017 - 112,7
2016 - 110,0
2015 - 108,5
2014 - 109,6
2013 - 108,3
2011 - 109,6
2010 - 110,3
2009 - 110,5
2008 - 109,8
2007 - 109,0
2006 - 108,5
2005 - 107,2
2004 - 104,0
2003 - 104,8
2002 - 105,6
2001 - 104,5
2000 - 105,4

.