People were interested in these podcasts

Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal

Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson?

Larry Bird
23
62%
Magic Johnson
14
38%
 
Total votes: 37

ty 4191
Veteran
Posts: 2,598
And1: 2,017
Joined: Feb 18, 2021
   

Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#1 » by ty 4191 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:22 am

Thoughts?

Let's discuss. :D
ty 4191
Veteran
Posts: 2,598
And1: 2,017
Joined: Feb 18, 2021
   

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#2 » by ty 4191 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:38 am

Let's start with quality of opposition in the RS and Playoffs:

https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/5/17/21258281/what-if-the-celtics-and-lakers-had-switched-conferences-in-the-1980s

Excerpt:

"How bad was the Western Conference back in the great 1980’s of the NBA? Well, the Los Angeles Lakers cruised to the West crown most of the eight times in 10 years, and the only two times they lost - 1981 and 1986 - were to Houston, both led by big frontlines who pounded LA on the boards.

In 1981, the Rockets team led by Moses Malone that upset the defending champion Lakers finished the season with a record of just 40-42! Heck, the average win percentage of the Laker playoff foes in the West in the 1980’s was barely over .500. In 1987, they played two sub-.500 teams and a 42-40 team to get to the NBA Finals. In the Western Conference Finals, they swept a sub-.500 Seattle team.

In the East in 1987, a severely crippled Celtics team fought through a young Michael Jordan and the Bulls in the first round, survived a seven-game thriller with the Bucks, and then persevered against the Bad Boy Pistons in a seven-game slugfest just to reach the Finals.

Despite having to run the gauntlet of a tough East each spring and play into June almost every year, shortening their off-season and recovery time, the Celtics of 1984-87 were the last team to make it to four consecutive NBA Finals for almost 30 years until this past decade, when the Heat did it in a weak East from 2011-14, and then the Cavaliers of 2015-18. Think about that.

A big part of the reason the Lakers are erroneously called the “Team of the 1980’s” is the fact the West was so much weaker than the East. The playoffs are a battle of attrition and until 1989, the Lakers did not face much competition or injury in the Western playoffs.

The Lakers never had a consistently good in-conference rival in the decade, unlike Boston, who faced the 76ers, Bucks, Pistons, and Hawks. Four of the top five aggregate records of the 1980’s were teams in the East. During their 2010’s dominance, one might say that Miami (and later Cleveland) resembled the Lakers of the 1980’s by ruling over a bad group of competitors, with LeBron James playing the Earvin Johnson role.

In fact, from 1981-88, LA never faced a team who won more than 53 games, and usually met teams with considerably fewer victories.

Conversely, Boston faced five teams (four 76ers clubs, one Bucks) just from 1980-86 who won 57-62 games. On top of that, serious injuries arguably cost Boston titles in 1982 and 1987, and possibly even in 1985.

By the time the Eastern representative fought its way to the championship series in the 1980’s, they were often worn out and beaten up, especially since not only was the competition better, the style of play was much more physical than the up-and-down, run-and-gun Western Conference was then.

I thought it might be fun to play a “What If” game and ask A) how things might have been different had Boston and LA switched places in the playoffs each year during the Bird era; and B) what would have happened had Boston and LA met every year in the Finals from 1980 to 1992?

Even though it seems like the Celtics and Lakers met constantly in the Finals during the Bird/Johnson era, they actually only met three times, with the Celtics severely hampered by injury in their ‘85 and ‘87 series losses.

Fans who had to wait until the end of their fifth seasons Bird and Johnson been in the NBA for them to meet again for the title they fought for in 1979 were finally satiated, and rewarded with a superb seven-game series that easily ranks as one of the best ever.

In the only championship series they met when the teams were similarly healthy, Boston won in a seven-game classic. Somehow, those Celtics had been cast as underdogs for that epic Finals: this despite having a much better record despite a tougher schedule (62 wins to 54), the homecourt advantage, and the Lakers having traded All-Star guard Norm Nixon for his oft-struggling rookie replacement, Byron Scott.

Plus, LA struggled mightily to barely beat the 41-41 Suns 4-2 in the WCF, and that came only after winning Game 6 99-97 by dodging a last-second Phoenix shot. On the other hand, Boston dispatched a strong 50-32 Milwaukee club handily in five games in the Eastern Conference Finals, with their four wins coming by an average of 13.5 ppg. Hmm. Underdogs?

Interestingly, despite playing a tougher schedule annually by virtue of two-thirds of its slate being confined to the tougher East, Boston still posted the best record in the NBA in six of the first seven seasons of the 1980’s.

The lone time they failed to do so was 1982-83, when they still were 56-26, nine games behind eventual champion Philadelphia.

Only when age and injury started to catch up to Boston in 1987 did the Lakers finally start posting better records, even though their schedule was also easier. In their 25 Western Conference playoff series of the 1980’s, LA faced teams who totaled 1,116 wins, an average of 44.6 victories a season per opponent. The Lakers won 23 of those 25 Western series in the decade, losing only to Houston in 1981 and 1986. In fact, the two best playoff teams LA faced in the 1980’s out west came in the same season of 1980 when they defeated Phoenix (55-27) and Seattle (56-26), each in five tough games.

When the NBA suspiciously moved Milwaukee from the West where they had been ensconced since entering the league as an expansion team in 1968, to the East, the balance of power shifted dramatically. One can’t help but think that the league wanted to make sure its lone tradition-rich, major market, ratings-friendly and telegenic franchise in the wild weak west would get to the Finals.

Otherwise, why mess up the balance of power by shifting a team not even in the east geographically to the Eastern Conference? The move ensured that four of the top five franchises of the decade were in the East. LA would have no consistently strong threat in its considerably softened conference, partly because Seattle declined precipitously in 1981, falling from 56 to 34 wins, after the season-long holdout of Gus Williams and the mid-season injury to Paul Westphal, who had been obtained in the celebrated “changing of the guards” trade with Dennis Johnson.

Moved to the East, the young Bucks went on to win 60 games in the 1980-81 season, their first of six straight Central Division titles. But despite reaching the conference finals in ‘83, ‘84 and ‘86, they never got to the NBA Finals because they could never get past both the Celtics and 76ers in the same year.

The hard-luck Bucks lost to Philly four times out of six series in the decade, and the two times they got to the Eastern Conference Finals, Boston took them out in the 1984 and 1986. The one time Milwaukee beat Boston in 1983, the 76ers then eliminated them in five in the Eastern Conference Finals.

It is difficult to think that Milwaukee, had they stayed in the west, would not have made at least one or two championship series appearances. And when the Sixers and Bucks started to fade late in the decade, the Pistons and Hawks rose up to take their place as perennial 50-plus win contenders.

On the other hand, Boston’s 23 playoff opponents of the 1980’s in the East won an incredibly similar 1,115 games (but in two less series), an average of 48.5 wins a season. Additionally, the only year Boston was eliminated before the conference finals between 1980-88 came in 1983, when they would have played the 65-17 76ers had they gotten by the Bucks.

Including that series, the opponent’s average win total would be 49.2. Boston won 19 of those 23 Eastern series, losing three times in the conference final (twice to the 76ers and once to Detroit) and one time to the Bucks in the 1983 semis. That opponent record would be right at 50 wins per game if one adds that the 30-52 Chicago club Boston beat in 1986 was really about a 40-45 win team with a healthy Jordan. MJ missed 64 of 82 games that season (the Bulls were 9-9 with him, including 5-1 in games he played 30 or more minutes), making the Bulls much more formidable.

LA played eight playoff teams in the 1980’s who won less than 40 games, winning seven times. Boston played four playoff teams with less than 40 wins in that span, including those misleading 1986 Bulls. Boston’s average wins per season from 1980-88 - excluding 1988-89 when Bird played a mere six games due to injury and missed the playoffs - equal a superb 61.1 per year, or a total of 550-188.

LA averaged 59.3 wins per season from 1980-88, or 534-204. And that is with the advantage playing a schedule roughly 20 percent easier since the west was considerably softer from 1981-88.

Had the teams switched conferences, from 1980-88 Boston could well have projected to probably win 63-64 games a season and as many as six championships due to an easier, less taxing road to the Finals. Meanwhile, LA might have dropped to 56-57 victories a year in the East and won only two titles at most.

And thus Boston would be unequivocally considered the team of the 1980’s, not LA. Only in 1983 (Philly) and 1989 (Detroit) would someone else have won the crown other than the NBA’s two dominant franchises. At the very worst, the Celtics and Lakers should be seen as “Co-teams of the Decade,” followed by Philadelphia, Milwaukee, and Detroit."
migya
General Manager
Posts: 8,022
And1: 1,471
Joined: Aug 13, 2005

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#3 » by migya » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:57 am

Bird was better. He was a better defender, scorer yet just a bit less of a passer.
ty 4191
Veteran
Posts: 2,598
And1: 2,017
Joined: Feb 18, 2021
   

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#4 » by ty 4191 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:17 am

migya wrote:Bird was better. He was a better defender, scorer yet just a bit less of a passer.


Agreed. And, even the passing should be put into context, compared to position:

AST%, all "Forwards" & "Forward/Centers" (per BBREF), Min 30000 Min Played, All Time:

Larry Bird: 24.7%
Webber:20.2
Garnett: 19.3
Odom: 18.4
Walker: 18.4
Malone: 17.4

AST%, Same Criteria for Guards, All Time:

Stockton: 50.2%
Paul: 45.3%
Westbrook: 42.6%
Nash:41.5%
Magic Johnson: 40.9%
Mark Jackson: 39.5%

Relative to position, Bird was arguably the greatest passer ever, and arguably, overall, a better passer than even Magic Johnson.
Gibson22
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,918
And1: 909
Joined: Jun 23, 2016
 

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#5 » by Gibson22 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:57 am

Bird was the better player in a vacuum and also for career because Bird was way up until 1986 and even tho Magic covered a lot of ground from 1987 I don't think he caught him, but I also think that, obviously, if Magic didn't have to retire at 32 due to HIV he would be pretti easily above Bird, he was still easily in his best years, he was shooting the 3, magic did really age like fine wine.
I mean, the man had just carried his team (I mean it wasn't terrible but it was a completely different team from the showtime lakers, the team was divac sam perkins worthy byron scott magic+teagle AC green) to the finals, and he still looked good all fat and stuff after a 4 years break.
I really think this is an underrated what if.
I mean this guy is n.7 in the past 2 real gm top 100 (even tho I have him as a borderline top 10), how high is he if he doesn't get hiv? Do the bulls win so much? Does mj still retire in 93? I mean If we don't buy the gambling conspiracy stuff, I think that part of the problem for mj was having pretty much fulfilled his goals, having so much pressure and being the only real superstar in the league, the guys he wanted to compete against (bird, magic) were gone and isiah wasn't relevant anymore. If you really think about it, I don't think jordan had a motivation to play with bird and magic being out, and also isiah not being competitive anymore.

I mean obviously the course of history at least for the lakers goes completely different if magic doesn't get hiv but the main questions are how much higher would he be in an all time list and to the lakers win some rings in the 90s.
I just think it's an underrated what if because the nba is full of what ifs as far as potential great players (len bias, hill, sabonis etc), what if-trades what if draft picks, what if that team wins and etc, but as far as already all time great players who had a what if event I can only think of michael jordan retiring twice (and it's the most tought about what if in sports history maybe) and larry bird injuries.
About larry bird injuries, obviously he's said to have had an injury in his early days, the bar fight, the back injury working his mother's driveway, but, at the end of the day A)these injuries didn't have an impact and he was having his best seasons, his career was only derailed and he didn't miss games until 1988-89, when he was 32. Obviously he had to miss the whole season, but at least he could come back and play his next 3 seasons. So I can't really rate a double achilles surgery at 32 followed by 3 good seasons as much of a what if, also because b)the celtics core was getting older, and altough still a very competitive team, they were only getting worse, and obviously len bias and reggie lewis died. clearly with those 2 not dying, larry bird not injurying himself, the celtics are the dominant team of that era, but everything else going the same + bird not having injuries I don't think much changes
No-more-rings
Head Coach
Posts: 7,104
And1: 3,912
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#6 » by No-more-rings » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:48 pm

Magic to me was just the superior offensive force, and while Bird was a better defender i don't see it bridging the gap particularly since Bird's d fell off after like 87 or so. Bird just wasn't as consistently dominant in the postseason regardless of whatever the reason(s) was.
User avatar
feyki
Veteran
Posts: 2,876
And1: 449
Joined: Aug 08, 2016
     

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#7 » by feyki » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:08 pm

For peak and prime, Bird was a bit better, the gap maybe bigger for the primes. Bird was a tier above defensive player in the anytime of his career. Bird also was better at volume scoring and the rebounding. Magic was much better playmaker and had better shot efficiency(Bird's getting underrated in this aspect, btw; see the double standards for Curry but not Bird in the posters).

I have 85 Bird at the 9th spot and 87 Magic at the 10th spot. Peak wise, they're really close. But 3 or 5 years primes favors Bird, prominently .
Image
“The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot.”
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,610
And1: 24,931
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#8 » by 70sFan » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:16 pm

feyki wrote:Magic was much better playmaker and had better shot efficiency(Bird's getting underrated in this aspect, btw; see the double standards for Curry but not Bird in the posters).


Where are these double standards come from? Curry is far more efficient scorer than Bird, both in RS and in the playoffs (even taking Curry's drop in efficiency into account).
User avatar
feyki
Veteran
Posts: 2,876
And1: 449
Joined: Aug 08, 2016
     

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#9 » by feyki » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:32 pm

70sFan wrote:
feyki wrote:Magic was much better playmaker and had better shot efficiency(Bird's getting underrated in this aspect, btw; see the double standards for Curry but not Bird in the posters).


Where are these double standards come from? Curry is far more efficient scorer than Bird, both in RS and in the playoffs (even taking Curry's drop in efficiency into account).


Yes, the point is fluctuation series by series. Curry's 15/19 playoffs rTS is about the +5/6, rOrtg +7/8. Bird's 84/88 rOrtg around the +12/13, rTS +3/4. Same consciousnesses judge Bird's because of his some series with relative to worse efficiency by his standards, but praise Curry's offence how great his offensive impact force over the average and ignore those series.
Image
“The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot.”
Owly
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,614
And1: 3,132
Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#10 » by Owly » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:54 pm

ty 4191 wrote:When the NBA suspiciously moved Milwaukee from the West where they had been ensconced since entering the league as an expansion team in 1968, to the East, the balance of power shifted dramatically. One can’t help but think that the league wanted to make sure its lone tradition-rich, major market, ratings-friendly and telegenic franchise in the wild weak west would get to the Finals.

Otherwise, why mess up the balance of power by shifting a team not even in the east geographically to the Eastern Conference?

Real problems with this source given the above.

Reason

1) The arrival of Dallas. A Western team.
2) San Antonio and Houston had been playing in the East.

Sidenotes:
The low-powered Bulls also switched to the East.
The Lakers, for all their stars, were fairly light on celebratory tradition in LA. Their single title in that time was a dominant one but I'm not sure the Laker brand, in LA, was what it would later be. The tradition of making and losing finals ... as a brand in LA was probably a mixed blessing at best.

If one's argument is about Boston vs LA team goodness, or one heavily weights playoffs and so playoff opponent standard should be factored in, LA's softer schedules are certainly a legitimate and important contextual note to be factored in. As a sole point in a notionally Bird versus Magic debate, less so.
User avatar
LakerLegend
RealGM
Posts: 13,356
And1: 7,587
Joined: Jun 15, 2002
Location: SoCal

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#11 » by LakerLegend » Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:39 pm

Magic’s numbers throughly trounce Peak Birds in their head to head finals matchups even though he was 3 years younger. If those finals are say 87-89 version of Magic, then he opens that gap further.
User avatar
Laimbeer
RealGM
Posts: 42,854
And1: 15,047
Joined: Aug 12, 2009
Location: Cabin Creek
     

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#12 » by Laimbeer » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:03 pm

delete
Comments to rationalize bad contracts -
1) It's less than the MLE
2) He can be traded later
3) It's only __% of the cap
4) The cap is going up
5) It's only __ years
6) He's a good mentor/locker room guy
SNPA
General Manager
Posts: 8,943
And1: 8,322
Joined: Apr 15, 2020

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#13 » by SNPA » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:16 pm

With respect to Magic, but this isn’t as close as people make it out to be.
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 22,395
And1: 18,823
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#14 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:20 am

LakerLegend wrote:Magic’s numbers throughly trounce Peak Birds in their head to head finals matchups even though he was 3 years younger. If those finals are say 87-89 version of Magic, then he opens that gap further.


What about non head to head?
User avatar
GSP
RealGM
Posts: 19,561
And1: 16,034
Joined: Dec 12, 2011
     

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#15 » by GSP » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:20 am

Better - Bird
Greater - Magic b/c of longevity years as Larry's back gave out in the latest 80s early 90s
SNPA
General Manager
Posts: 8,943
And1: 8,322
Joined: Apr 15, 2020

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#16 » by SNPA » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:01 am

70sFan wrote:
feyki wrote:Magic was much better playmaker and had better shot efficiency(Bird's getting underrated in this aspect, btw; see the double standards for Curry but not Bird in the posters).


Where are these double standards come from? Curry is far more efficient scorer than Bird, both in RS and in the playoffs (even taking Curry's drop in efficiency into account).

Ehhh…era impacted big time.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,610
And1: 24,931
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#17 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:29 am

SNPA wrote:
70sFan wrote:
feyki wrote:Magic was much better playmaker and had better shot efficiency(Bird's getting underrated in this aspect, btw; see the double standards for Curry but not Bird in the posters).


Where are these double standards come from? Curry is far more efficient scorer than Bird, both in RS and in the playoffs (even taking Curry's drop in efficiency into account).

Ehhh…era impacted big time.

What do you mean? I'm not saying Bird is worse than Curry, but he's not the scorer Curry is.
SNPA
General Manager
Posts: 8,943
And1: 8,322
Joined: Apr 15, 2020

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#18 » by SNPA » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:42 pm

70sFan wrote:
SNPA wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Where are these double standards come from? Curry is far more efficient scorer than Bird, both in RS and in the playoffs (even taking Curry's drop in efficiency into account).

Ehhh…era impacted big time.

What do you mean? I'm not saying Bird is worse than Curry, but he's not the scorer Curry is.

Curry’s efficiency is only possible in his era. Put Curry in any other era and his efficiency goes down for a few reasons but the most obvious being far less threes.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,610
And1: 24,931
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#19 » by 70sFan » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:12 pm

SNPA wrote:
70sFan wrote:
SNPA wrote:Ehhh…era impacted big time.

What do you mean? I'm not saying Bird is worse than Curry, but he's not the scorer Curry is.

Curry’s efficiency is only possible in his era. Put Curry in any other era and his efficiency goes down for a few reasons but the most obvious being far less threes.

1. I don't know any rule that would stop Curry from shooting threes in the 1980s.

2. So what? Curry is much more efficient relative to his era than Bird to his.

I know we should always take into account a lot of nuances in comparisons across eras, but in this case we're comparing a solid efficiency scorer to GOAT-level efficiency. Players of Curry's efficiency caliber existed back in the 1980s (Dantley, Kareem) and Bird wasn't one of them.
User avatar
cupcakesnake
Senior Mod- WNBA
Senior Mod- WNBA
Posts: 15,135
And1: 31,233
Joined: Jul 21, 2016
 

Re: Who Was Greater: Larry Bird or Magic Johnson 

Post#20 » by cupcakesnake » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:24 pm

70sFan wrote:
SNPA wrote:
70sFan wrote:What do you mean? I'm not saying Bird is worse than Curry, but he's not the scorer Curry is.

Curry’s efficiency is only possible in his era. Put Curry in any other era and his efficiency goes down for a few reasons but the most obvious being far less threes.

1. I don't know any rule that would stop Curry from shooting threes in the 1980s.

2. So what? Curry is much more efficient relative to his era than Bird to his.

I know we should always take into account a lot of nuances in comparisons across eras, but in this case we're comparing a solid efficiency scorer to GOAT-level efficiency. Players of Curry's efficiency caliber existed back in the 1980s (Dantley, Kareem) and Bird wasn't one of them.


Yeah efficiency related to era is not something we need to argue anymore. We have easily accessible stats that compare players efficiency to the average efficiency of the league when they played in it.

We don't need to compare their raw TS% or shooting percentage. We know Bird was +2.8rTs for his career and Curry so far has been a whopping +8 (!!!!)

Larry Bird actually had a way higher 3-point rate relative to era than Curry did. I guess maybe SNPA is saying that if Curry's relative 3-point rate was applied to league average in the 80s, Curry would be posting drastically different true shooting numbers? But that would apply to any player today so I don't see it as a useful way to understand Curry.
"Being in my home. I was watching pokemon for 5 hours."

Co-hosting with Harry Garris at The Underhand Freethrow Podcast

Return to Player Comparisons