where does wilt Chamberlain rank among all time defensive peaks?

[falcolombardi]

How does his best defense stand compared to the likes of russel, duncan or hakeem (among others) in your opinion

[70sFan]

It's certainly inside top 10 for me and I wouldn't have much against top 5 either. Of course Russell is better and I'd also take Hakeem over him. Not sure about Robinson, as I didn't track him yet but my feeling says he's above as well. Duncan is probably on that tier and then you have Walton/Wilt/KG fighting for the next spot. Mutombo should be somewhere as well, not sure how high though.

Ahead of next tier ATGs like Thurmond, Ewing, Gilmore, Kareem, Wallace, Mourning, Gobert, Green and Howard.

[kcktiny]

Why of course is Russell better?

And both Chamberlain and Russell have been quoted as saying Thurmond was as good a defender as they were.

[eminence]

First instinct, stealing from 70sFans list (apologies if I forget anyone).

I'd have him behind Russell, Duncan, KG, Green. Ahead of Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo, Thurmond, Gilmore, KAJ, Mourning, Howard, Gobert, Walton, Ewing, and Wallace. If including him (I usually leave him as an HM) I'd probably have him behind Mikan.

So 5th or 6th for me.

[KobesScarf]

Top 10 with Ewing Russell Rodman Robinson Mutombo Debusschere Walton Thurmond and Olajuwan

[kcktiny]

Chamberlain was named all-defensive 1st team in both 1971-72 and 1972-73, at the ages of 35 and 36.

Does anyone really think he was a better defender that late in his career than he was at any time earlier in his career? Remember he's been charted as having blocked some 20+ shots in a game a couple of times in the 1960s. Lord knows how many 15+ blocked shot games he had, or 10+ blocked shot games.

And he was named to the all-defensive 1st team not once but twice at these late ages despite the fact that younger very good defenders like Jabbar, Thurmond, Dave Cowens, and Elmore Smith were also playing seriously heavy minutes those same seasons.

I think anyone claiming one of Chamberlain, Russell, or Thurmond being the far better defender than the other two is splitting hairs at best. Each can arguably claim to have been the best defensive C ever.

Like anyone claiming Olajuwon or David Robinson was better than the other. They were the best on defense all through the 1990s.

[penbeast0]

Don't see Thurmond having as large a team impact as the other two though he was certainly among the GOATs as a man defender. That's the main Russell advantage over everyone else, even (especially) Wilt. Also, when we say defense, are we including defensive rebounding as defense? Because that helps Wilt against many of the others.

[ty 4191]

It's certainly inside top 10 for me and I wouldn't have much against top 5 either. Of course Russell is better and I'd also take Hakeem over him. Not sure about Robinson, as I didn't track him yet but my feeling says he's above as well. Duncan is probably on that tier and then you have Walton/Wilt/KG fighting for the next spot. Mutombo should be somewhere as well, not sure how high though.

Ahead of next tier ATGs like Thurmond, Ewing, Gilmore, Kareem, Wallace, Mourning, Gobert, Green and Howard.

If they tracked blocks, Wilt would have certainly had one of the greatest peaks ever.

Consider that he led ALL players in Defensive Win Shares from 1967-1973, when he finally started focusing on defense and passing. Even though he was old, and playing on a bad/surgically reconstructed knee after November, 1969.

[ty 4191]

The top 3 Centers Ever Versus All HOF Competition:

Career vs. Wilt (828 games)

PTS/G RB/G AS/G FG%
Russell 14.5 23.8 4.65 0.394
Bellamy 22.1 15.9 3 0.434
Embry 8.95 3.4 1 0.402
Reed 19.1 11.3 2.15 0.474
Beaty 18.3 10.6 0.449
Pettit 24.6 18.3 3.1 0.432
Lucas 16.9 15.05 3.4 0.473
Schayes 18.3 11.1 1.8 0.387
Thurmond 16 21 3.6 0.366
Lanier 21.7 12.6 2.4 0.45
Unseld 13.1 17.1 3 0.431
Hayes 29.8 17.6 3.6 0.499
Jabaar 30.75 16.6 4.5 0.464

Averages 19.6 14.9 3 .435

Career Versus Kareem (659 games)

PTS/G RB/G AS/G BLK/G FG%
Bob Lanier 19.3 10.1 3.4 0.462
Artis Gilmore 17.3 7.9 2.5 1.75 0.613
Robert Parish 16.9 9.5 1.6 1.4 0.493
Hakeem Olajuwon 26.7 11.4 2.1 3.4 0.515
Wilt Chamberlain 16.1 18.4 3.3 0.484
Walt Bellamy 17.8 0.622
Zelmo Beaty 11.5 6.5 1 1 0.563
Patrick Ewing 18.8 9.3 2.8 2 0.446
Bill Walton 12.2 8.5 3.7 1.7 0.495
Ralph Sampson 18.7 7.7 3.1 2.2 0.513
Moses Malone 26.8 16.5 2 1.6 0.516
Willis Reed 23 10.8 2.4 0.505
Dave Cowens 21.9 12 4.6 0.449
Jack Sikma 14.4 9.2 4.2 0.462
Nate Thurmond 15.6 11.9 3.4 0.408
Dan Issel 18.6 5.3 2.9 0.492
Bob McAdoo 25.1 9.6 2.6
Wes Unseld 14 13.2 4.6 0.505

Averages 18.6 10.5 2.95 1.88 .503

Career vs. Russell (757 games)

PTS/G RB/G AS/G FG%
Chamberlain 28.5 28.1 3.9 0.494
Bellamy 23.8 17.3 2.1 0.483
Embry 13.3 11 1.8 0.379
Reed 18.8 13.2 1.6 0.422
Beaty 16.8 12.1 1.5 0.405
Pettit 28.8 17.5 3.2 0.431
Lucas 18.2 18.3 2.4 0.473
Schayes 20.8 13.4 3.6 0.384
Thurmond 15.8 18 1.8 0.359
Johnston 14.6 9.5 2.2 0.358
Unseld 11 20.2 2.4 0.413
Hayes 24.2 17 1 0.396

Averages 19.6 16.3 2.3 .416

Sorry about the formatting!!

[ty 4191]

Does anyone really think he was a better defender that late in his career than he was at any time earlier in his career? Remember he's been charted as having blocked some 20+ shots in a game a couple of times in the 1960s. Lord knows how many 15+ blocked shot games he had, or 10+ blocked shot games.

And he was named to the all-defensive 1st team not once but twice at these late ages despite the fact that younger very good defenders like Jabbar, Thurmond, Dave Cowens, and Elmore Smith were also playing seriously heavy minutes those same seasons.

I think anyone claiming one of Choamberlain, Russell, or Thurmond being the far better defender than the other two is splitting hairs at best. Each can arguably claim to have been the best defensive C ever.

Like anyone claiming Olajuwon or David Robinson was better than the other. They were the best on defense all through the 1990s.

Excellent post. An old Wilt (35-36 was ancient then), and playing on a bad knee/leg was still the best defensive player in the league quite arguably.

Re: Blocks...

http://www.nbastats.net/

Scroll all the way down to "Bonus Stats" then click "Unofficial Stats Part 1". Download the Excel File.

According to that source, Wilt had 617 games with 10+ blocks and 57 games with 20+ blocks. He also had (according to that source) over 500 total career triple doubles, including blocks.

[coastalmarker99]

Does anyone really think he was a better defender that late in his career than he was at any time earlier in his career? Remember he's been charted as having blocked some 20+ shots in a game a couple of times in the 1960s. Lord knows how many 15+ blocked shot games he had, or 10+ blocked shot games.

And he was named to the all-defensive 1st team not once but twice at these late ages despite the fact that younger very good defenders like Jabbar, Thurmond, Dave Cowens, and Elmore Smith were also playing seriously heavy minutes those same seasons.

I think anyone claiming one of Choamberlain, Russell, or Thurmond being the far better defender than the other two is splitting hairs at best. Each can arguably claim to have been the best defensive C ever.

Like anyone claiming Olajuwon or David Robinson was better than the other. They were the best on defense all through the 1990s.

Excellent post. An old Wilt (35-36 was ancient then), and playing on a bad knee/leg was still the best defensive player in the league quite arguably.

Re: Blocks...

http://www.nbastats.net/

Scroll all the way down to "Bonus Stats" then click "Unofficial Stats Part 1". Download the Excel File.

According to that source, Wilt had 617 games with 10+ blocks and 57 games with 20+ blocks. He also had (according to that source) over 500 total career triple doubles, including blocks.

Wilt and Russell both have over 400 total career triple-doubles and countless quadruple doubles


Russell also owns countless records when it comes to shot-blocking in the NBA finals.

Here are Russell's full stat lines from the 1968 finals when he was an old man.

G1: 19pts/25reb/3ast/5blk*

G2: 15pts/24reb/5ast/9blk

G3: 25pts/16reb/9ast/9blk*

G4: 11pts/22reb/6ast/15blk

G5: 22pts/25reb/5ast/10blk

G6: 12pts/19reb/6ast/12blk

This Gave him an average of 17.3 ppg, 21.8 rpg, 5.7 apg and 10.0 bpg, including 3 straight triple-doubles to close out the series.

Also Here are some newspaper reports praising Russell's performance in the 1968 finals

“Russell scored 25 points, collected 16 rebounds, had 9 assists and 9 blocked shots, and that performance by the 33-year-old star proved the deciding factor” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 27, 1968).

Russell also had a game-winning block on Elgin Baylor at the end of Game 5.

"The Lakers’ Elgin Baylor appeared to get loose for a bucket that would have tied the game. But suddenly Boston player-coach Bill Russell came out of nowhere to block the shot and that was it […]” (Toledo Blade, May 1, 1968).

[kcktiny]

Russell may have played in more Finals games than Chamberlain did, but they played in an almost equal number of total playoff games - Russell 165 and Chamberlain 160. Might you have similar data for any of Chamberlain's playoff games? I'd be curious if Wilt had any 50+ pts, 20+ reb, 15+ bs games or something outrageously similar.

[kcktiny]

The spreadsheet from the above link shows that on 3-31-1962 Chamberlain blocked 25 shots in a playoff game against Boston (states it's a record). So in that playoff game he played 48 min and had 41 pts, 34 rebs, and 25 blocks.

In another playoff game against Boston on 3-22-1960 he played 46 min had 50 pts, 35 rebs, and 22 blocks.

Holy moly.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt aside from Russell has the most clutch defensive plays in NBA history.

In-game 6 of the 1960, ECF Wilt on the final possession blocked Sharman's drive but couldn't prevent Heinsohn from tapping in the rebound.


In-game 6 of the 1965, ECF Chamberlain made several clutch defensive plays despite having five fouls to force the series to head to a game seven


In-game 4 of the 1966 ECF Chamberlain had a block on Russell at the end of regulation to force OT.








In-Game 1 of the 1967 NBA Finals, Wilt blocked the shot of Hall of Fame center Nate Thurmond in the final seconds of the game to force overtime. The 76ers then won the game in overtime 141-135, and the 76ers went on to win the NBA title in 6 games.

In-Game 2 of the 1970 NBA Finals, the Lakers were holding on to a 105-103 lead and Hall of Fame center Willis Reed tried to put the game into overtime with a short-range jump shot. Chamberlain blocked the shot and the Lakers walked out of Madison Square Garden with a series split...."


In a fiercely battled Game 4 of the 1972 finals. Chamberlain was playing with five fouls late in the game. Having never fouled out in his career, a feat that he was very proud of, Chamberlain played aggressive defence despite the risk of fouling out, and blocked two of Lucas' shots in overtime which helped the Lakers win.


In-game 7 against the Bulls in the 1973 playoffs in the last 30 seconds Wilt created a 4 point swing with 33 seconds to go to save the Lakers season.

[coastalmarker99]

The spreadsheet from the above link shows that on 3-31-1962 Chamberlain blocked 25 shots in a playoff game against Boston (states it's a record). So in that playoff game he played 48 min and had 41 pts, 34 rebs, and 25 blocks.

In another playoff game against Boston on 3-22-1960 he played 46 min had 50 pts, 35 rebs, and 22 blocks.

Holy moly.

Every Celtics player praised Wilt's defence in the 1960 ECF.


''It's great to be able to drive through that key and not worry about that 7-2 giant in my way said Tom Heinsohn''


Russell himself after the series ended said that he couldn't keep his food down nor could he sleep due to how much Wilt was exhausting him.

[coastalmarker99]

Russell may have played in more Finals games than Chamberlain did, but they played in an almost equal number of total playoff games - Russell 165 and Chamberlain 160. Might you have similar data for any of Chamberlain's playoff games? I'd be curious if Wilt had any 50+ pts, 20+ reb, 15+ bs games or something outrageously similar.

Wilt did have a 56 point and 35 rebound game to go along with 12 blocks in game 5 against Syracuse in the 1962 playoffs.


He also had another 50 point triple-double against Syracuse in the 1960 playoffs.

He posted 53 points 22 rebounds to go along with 13 blocks to send the Warriors to the next round to match up against the Celtics.

[70sFan]

Why of course is Russell better?

Higher motor, more consistent effort, more mobile and willing to defend perimeter, better P&R defender, slightly better defensive rebounder (Wilt is GOAT-level offensive rebounder).

I like that you support Thurmond by the way. I have him only slightly behind Wilt, up there with anyone but my top 3.

[coastalmarker99]

Why of course is Russell better?

Higher motor, more consistent effort, more mobile and willing to defend perimeter, better P&R defender, slightly better defensive rebounder (Wilt is GOAT-level offensive rebounder).

I like that you support Thurmond by the way. I have him only slightly behind Wilt, up there with anyone but my top 3.

Russell was able to guard wings such as Walker and Cunningham even as an old man due to how mobile he was.


Wilt could guard wings in his prime as well but once he went to LA he basically refused to leave the paint and come out on shooters.


Reed and Cowens plus Lucas give Wilt a lot of trouble due to how good they were at outside shooting.




For example, In 1973, Boston faced Los Angeles 4 times and Cowens averaged 31.3 points and 20 rebounds against the Lakers,


Cowens even said that he liked to play against the Lakers because Wilt Chamberlain never comes out to guard him,




Still through Wilt to his credit even with one good leg was a defensive monster and a GOAT level rebounder in 1972 and 1973.

[ty 4191]

Why of course is Russell better?

Higher motor, more consistent effort, more mobile and willing to defend perimeter, better P&R defender, slightly better defensive rebounder (Wilt is GOAT-level offensive rebounder).

I like that you support Thurmond by the way. I have him only slightly behind Wilt, up there with anyone but my top 3.

Better motor/more consistent effort? Wilt ran the floor and played both ends of the court, hard. As hard as anyone.Just one sample (amazing definition and restoration here).

Please watch these:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

PS: Huge supporter of Thurmond here, too. One of of the greatest rebounders/shot blockers/physical specimens ever. Amazing video here, where (among many other amazing testimonials,, Wilt himself says "Nate Thurmond was one of the best defe players and physical specimens ever, and he played me as well as Bill Russell. His incredible long arms were longer than mine!." Alex Hannum breaks down his skills and achievements, as does Nate himself!

Watch on YouTube

[ty 4191]

This should be referenced for all those that think Wilt, Russell, and even Kareem played against smaller/weaker competition than today's centers.