Best Offensive AND Defensive Player (At The Same Time)

[ty 4191]

How many players in NBA history have been both the best/most valuable offensive players (for a sustained period of time) and ALSO the best/most valuable defensive players (in the entire NBA)?

[70sFan]

Very few, if any. Some worth considering:

1950-54 George Mikan
1967-68 Wilt Chamberlain
1971-74, 1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1994-95 Hakeem Olajuwon
2002-03 Tim Duncan
2020-21 Giannis Antetokumpo

Most of them don't match the criteria though.

[Stan]

Hakeem the two years Jordan was gone would have the best argument imo

Maybe Kareem at some point

I don’t even know if you could say Wilt with Russell around

Maybe LeBron in 2013

[DQuinn1575]

Very few, if any. Some worth considering:

1950-54 George Mikan
1967-68 Wilt Chamberlain
1971-74, 1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1994-95 Hakeem Olajuwon
2002-03 Tim Duncan
2020-21 Giannis Antetokumpo

Most of them don't match the criteria though.

With Wilt & Thurmond both, I dont think Kareem would get 71-73, but maybe 74,76,77
I think MIkan is pretty overrated on defense; I don't think I've ever seen anything written at the time calling him the best defender in the league; Slater Martin was often called the best defender in the league.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Other than the people already mentioned...for one year in particular, 2009 Lebron might have fit this criteria.

For example, let's compare him to 2009 Dwight who won DPOY and was also AROUND his peak defensively.

2009 Lebron
D-PIPM: 3.25
D-RAPM: 2.8

2009 Dwight
D-PIPM: 3.08
D-RAPM: 2

If you don't like single year stuff, it is hard to really show how special 09 was because I think he had a different approach that year than any other year. However:

5-Yr RAPM splits used for developing BPM
07-11 Lebron: 4.7
07-11 Howard: 3.5


Lebron's man-defense was GOAT-like for a perimeter wing. Like look at the defensive numbers below. Idk if I have ever seen such a stark contrast between a player on the court and off the court in how certain guys scored the ball.

https://realcavsfans.com/index.php?threads/the-case-for-2009-lebron-as-the-goat-peak.46121/

Tracking data backs this up too. In the 2008-09 season LeBron James allowed just 0.72 Points Per Possession in Isolation according to Synergy data. This is right around 2016 Kawhi's mark of allowing 0.69 Points Per Possession in Isolation, and Kawhi's best defensive trait is him being a lockdown 1 on 1 defender, while Lebron's best traits are generally considered to be communication, and help defense (protection at the rim).

Offensively, making the argument that Lebron was at the top of the league is likely an easier sell to many. He was #1 in the league offensively and overall in PIPM, RAPM, RAPTOR, ESPN, X-RAPM, BPM, and probably any metric you can think of in the RS and PS.

I think this is among the closest examples you might see.

[Doctor MJ]

How many players in NBA history have been both the best/most valuable offensive players (for a sustained period of time) and ALSO the best/most valuable defensive players (in the entire NBA)?

I don't think I'd say it's ever happened. I can definitely see arguments for various guys, but I don't think there's any year where I'd name a guy both OPOY and DPOY.

There are players who have been both at different times with Wilt & Hakeem being the first guys who come to mind.

(It's possible Mikan would qualify, but I'm low on his offense.)

[Doctor MJ]

Other than the people already mentioned...for one year in particular, 2009 Lebron might have fit this criteria.

For example, let's compare him to 2009 Dwight who won DPOY and was also AROUND his peak defensively.

2009 Lebron
D-PIPM: 3.25
D-RAPM: 2.8

2009 Dwight
D-PIPM: 3.08
D-RAPM: 2

If you don't like single year stuff, it is hard to really show how special 09 was because I think he had a different approach that year than any other year. However:

5-Yr RAPM splits used for developing BPM
07-11 Lebron: 4.7
07-11 Howard: 3.5


Lebron's man-defense was GOAT-like for a perimeter wing. Like look at the defensive numbers below. Idk if I have ever seen such a stark contrast between a player on the court and off the court in how certain guys scored the ball.

https://realcavsfans.com/index.php?threads/the-case-for-2009-lebron-as-the-goat-peak.46121/

Tracking data backs this up too. In the 2008-09 season LeBron James allowed just 0.72 Points Per Possession in Isolation according to Synergy data. This is right around 2016 Kawhi's mark of allowing 0.69 Points Per Possession in Isolation, and Kawhi's best defensive trait is him being a lockdown 1 on 1 defender, while Lebron's best traits are generally considered to be communication, and help defense (protection at the rim).

Offensively, making the argument that Lebron was at the top of the league is likely an easier sell to many. He was #1 in the league offensively and overall in PIPM, RAPM, RAPTOR, ESPN, X-RAPM, BPM, and probably any metric you can think of in the RS and PS.

I think this is among the closest examples you might see.

Good case there.

My inclination would still be to give DPOY to Howard that year. He was leading the best defense in the league, and his defensive RAPM may well have been distorted by Gortat's presence.

I do consider Garnett to be easily the best defender of that year over Howard or LeBron when he played, but with his missed time I would probably put Howard 1 and LeBron 2.

[eminence]

I’d go with none in the 3pt era. Maybe a Kareem year, but my first instinct was no. A couple early Mikan seasons.

[Doctor MJ]

With Wilt & Thurmond both, I dont think Kareem would get 71-73, but maybe 74,76,77
I think MIkan is pretty overrated on defense; I don't think I've ever seen anything written at the time calling him the best defender in the league; Slater Martin was often called the best defender in the league.

The Lakers were winning primarily with defense during the entire run, and that run began before Martin was on the team. Doesn't mean that Mikan was necessarily the best defensive player, but the Lakers were the defensive dynasty of the era whereas the offensive dynasty was the Rochester Royals - who were precursors to the '70s Knicks, '90s Bulls & modern Warriors through a direct coaching tree.

Remember also that goaltending became illegal because of Mikan. That means basically by definition his defense was the primary concern until the new rules came into place. Perhaps with the new rules this ceased to be the reality, but the data still seems to me to point in that direction.

My guess is that the arguments for Martin as best defender were a bit like arguments for Ben Simmons as DPOY. Great at what he does, but also a product of searching for a superlative for that player because he wasn't putting up massive scoring numbers more so than a serious analysis contrasting players who play very different roles.

[Texas Chuck]

2004 KG deserves a mention here. It's a year without a truly great offensive player operating at peak powers and he's obviously in the mix with Wallace and Duncan for best defenders.

[Doctor MJ]

Hakeem the two years Jordan was gone would have the best argument imo

Maybe Kareem at some point

I don’t even know if you could say Wilt with Russell around

Maybe LeBron in 2013

Hakeem has a case in those '90s years, but I think Mutombo probably had him beat in defensive value added.

(Interestingly, I'd guess Hakeem would be the superior defender in today's game.)

Re: Wilt. I think he has an excellent case as DPOY in '67-68 over Russell.

[Doctor MJ]

2004 KG deserves a mention here. It's a year without a truly great offensive player operating at peak powers and he's obviously in the mix with Wallace and Duncan for best defenders.

Yup, something to seriously consider on both sides of the ball.

I think in terms of defensive value added though, I'd be inclined to go with either Wallace or Duncan though.

[eminence]

I have no doubts about Mikan as the best defender of the period. More questions about if he was ahead of Davies and then Arizin offensively. But the scoring volume/efficiency was so overwhelming in the earliest seasons I have a tough time making a case against him (and he wasn’t really lacking in other areas offensively).

[Texas Chuck]

2004 KG deserves a mention here. It's a year without a truly great offensive player operating at peak powers and he's obviously in the mix with Wallace and Duncan for best defenders.

Yup, something to seriously consider on both sides of the ball.

I think in terms of defensive value added though, I'd be inclined to go with either Wallace or Duncan though.

Oh sure. I'm with the group that nobody has ever achieved this. But when we are looking at guys who are close, I think KG as a top 3 offensive player and a top 3 defensive player that year is very reasonable. I probably wouldn't have him the single best at either end that year, but I don't have the gap between that player and KG as all that vast either.

I think he's closer to being the best offensive player that year than say 03 Duncan. And you know how highly I think of Tim Duncan, but guys like Shaq, Dirk, Kobe, TMac, Nash all had better offensive years than they did the following season in 04. So in terms of relative offense I would definitely take 04 KG over 03 Duncan.

[ceiling raiser]

In the entire NBA? Zero post-shot clock.

Top 5 on both ends? This is probably still nobody in that span. EDIT: Possibly Kareem

Top 10 on both ends? Maybe a few guys. I can see Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Garnett, LeBron, Giannis. EDIT: Would add Duncan and Leonard

[Texas Chuck]

In the entire NBA? Zero post-shot clock.

Top 5 on both ends? This is probably still nobody in that span.

Top 10 on both ends? Maybe a few guys. I can see Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Garnett, LeBron, Giannis.

Top 5 without question includes guys like Giannis, KG, Duncan, Robinson, Dream. Kawhi may sneak a season in there, Lebron too. I mean Giannis literally just did it last year. There weren't 5 better offensive or defensive players than him last year. Still stunned that because Giannis isn't a jump shooter how many people still don't realize what a dominant offensive player he has been for 4 years now.

[70sFan]

In the entire NBA? Zero post-shot clock.

Top 5 on both ends? This is probably still nobody in that span.

Top 10 on both ends? Maybe a few guys. I can see Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Garnett, LeBron, Giannis.

Kareem was certainly a top 5 defender and offensive player in his peak years.

[DQuinn1575]

With Wilt & Thurmond both, I dont think Kareem would get 71-73, but maybe 74,76,77
I think MIkan is pretty overrated on defense; I don't think I've ever seen anything written at the time calling him the best defender in the league; Slater Martin was often called the best defender in the league.

The Lakers were winning primarily with defense during the entire run, and that run began before Martin was on the team. Doesn't mean that Mikan was necessarily the best defensive player, but the Lakers were the defensive dynasty of the era whereas the offensive dynasty was the Rochester Royals - who were precursors to the '70s Knicks, '90s Bulls & modern Warriors through a direct coaching tree.

Remember also that goaltending became illegal because of Mikan. That means basically by definition his defense was the primary concern until the new rules came into place. Perhaps with the new rules this ceased to be the reality, but the data still seems to me to point in that direction.

My guess is that the arguments for Martin as best defender were a bit like arguments for Ben Simmons as DPOY. Great at what he does, but also a product of searching for a superlative for that player because he wasn't putting up massive scoring numbers more so than a serious analysis contrasting players who play very different roles.

Goaltending became illegal because of Kurland, Otten, and MIkan in NCAA ball. Kurland was considered the best defensive player of the three. And goaltending was never legal in the NBA (or BAA), so to say Mikan was a good defender because of goaltending
I've never seen anyone saying Mikan wasn't good on defense, but I also have not ever seen a contemporary account or anyone who saw him say how great he was defensively.

[eminence]

In the entire NBA? Zero post-shot clock.

Top 5 on both ends? This is probably still nobody in that span.

Top 10 on both ends? Maybe a few guys. I can see Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Garnett, LeBron, Giannis.

Top 5 without question includes guys like Giannis, KG, Duncan, Robinson, Dream. Kawhi may sneak a season in there, Lebron too. I mean Giannis literally just did it last year. There weren't 5 better offensive or defensive players than him last year. Still stunned that because Giannis isn't a jump shooter how many people still don't realize what a dominant offensive player he has been for 4 years now.

I’m not nearly sold on Giannis top 5 offense. Curry/Jokic/KD/LeBron/Kawhi/Luka at least had decent to strong arguments over him last season. Dame/Embiid might be worth discussing.

[ceiling raiser]

In the entire NBA? Zero post-shot clock.

Top 5 on both ends? This is probably still nobody in that span.

Top 10 on both ends? Maybe a few guys. I can see Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Garnett, LeBron, Giannis.

Top 5 without question includes guys like Giannis, KG, Duncan, Robinson, Dream. Kawhi may sneak a season in there, Lebron too. I mean Giannis literally just did it last year. There weren't 5 better offensive or defensive players than him last year. Still stunned that because Giannis isn't a jump shooter how many people still don't realize what a dominant offensive player he has been for 4 years now.

I'm a huge fan of Robinson and Hakeem, but were they good enough passers? Kawhi and Duncan I'd put in the top 10, good call. I might be overrating passing/playmaking as it pertains to offensive impact.

In the entire NBA? Zero post-shot clock.

Top 5 on both ends? This is probably still nobody in that span.

Top 10 on both ends? Maybe a few guys. I can see Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Garnett, LeBron, Giannis.

Kareem was certainly a top 5 defender and offensive player in his peak years.

Yeah, you're right. He might be the only one, especially pre-merger.