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if you time machine'd Dennis rodman at his rebounding peak with the bulls and spurs into modern league how much value do you think he would bring?

there is other concerns with rodman like spacing, but assuming he was in a team that was happy with him being primarly a offensive rebounder in offense

how valuable is his offensive rebounding considering the different makeup and style of the league?

how much value does his defensive rebounding add compared to other bigs (rodman was not that big but you get what i mean)

what is the value off individual rebounding centers in the modern game?
is it more valuable for a big to Box out or take the rebounds himself?
is the benefit of going for offensive rebounds compared to the spacing or defensive transition issues?

how would other great rebounder like moses malone far in today league in value, based specifically in the rebounding part ?

It is valuable. Look at the best rebounder today, Jared Vanderbilt, and his impact on the Timberwolves.

Rebounding is different though in todays NBA. You need to be attacking the rim from further away and utilize the spacing to carve out lanes.

Honestly I think he'd be even more impactful cuz the floor is more spread out and there's more longer rebounds for him to chase. He was so mobile and anticipatory I can't help but imagine he'd be a gamebreaker in today's league. Especially because the highest percentage 3s are from kickouts off ORebs

He'd be more valuable blending what he did with his last few seasons with the Pistons vs his later career. An all around defender from 1 to 4 who was also good with rebounding but not obsessed with it, to the point he'd leave his man just to get ready for the board as PJax claimed.

Rebounding has always been a very impactful skill in every era. Offensive rebounds are pretty much the most efficient form of offense in that they erase a bad shot and turn it into a likely layup/dunk or kickout for an open shot. Having a monster defensive rebounder means to some extent you don't need your guards to crash and can have them get back on defense to erase any chance of a fast break advantage, as well as of course limiting the other teams second chances. If Rodman pulls down 5 offensive rebounds a game, thats 10 ppg in addition to his actual 10 ppg he gets off cuts and lobs. That is an impactful offensive player that doesn't need ANY touches to be impactful. Which means he fits in with virtually any offense.

Athleticism is the one thing you can't teach or develop throughout your career. It's not the only reason Rodman is one of the best rebounders of all-time, but it's the biggest reason. Rodman would be one of the best athletes in any era, including this one. And there are many players that have found tremendous success despite not being a great shooter. Bad shooters are only a liability on offense if they cant rebound or finish under the rim, and Rodman can do both of those things, even more so today with so many teams playing small.

Rodman could definitely be have Draymond-level impact in this league today, which is a top 10-20 impact type guy, though defensive guys are often overlooked for all-star selections. He's not as smart as Dray perhaps, but Rodman still always had a great feel for the game and he's also far more athletic than Draymond, which can make up for his lack of foresight to some extent. And Rodman obviously is a far better rebounder and finisher than Draymond. Offensively, Rodman has more value off-ball than on ball as more of a rebounder and cutting/lob threat but that can still be a nasty pick and roll partner, and a better partner than Dray for someone who wants to be the handler on the PnR. Because everyone knows if Dray gets the ball on the roll he's still not a great threat to score and will likely pass. But Rodman is because of his athleticism.

The only potential downside of Rodman is that he was widely known as a big party guy and he really needs a respected coach and star teammates to reign him in to some extent (though you can only reign him in so much)

penbeast0 wrote:Completely useless. I mean who needs a GOAT rebounding when he can't even shoot the 3?

i never said it would be useless lol, just wonndering if the relative value of it may be lower than in its own era

kendogg wrote: If Rodman pulls down 5 offensive rebounds a game, thats 10 ppg in addition to his actual 10 ppg he gets off cuts and lobs.

Yeah if you look at the points per possession after an offensive rebound you will see that it is far below 2. A quick google search led me to data from 2020 that showed just less than 1.2. Which is a great possession mind you, but your scenario leads to 6 points not 10 which is just a massive, massive difference.

Texas Chuck wrote:

kendogg wrote: If Rodman pulls down 5 offensive rebounds a game, thats 10 ppg in addition to his actual 10 ppg he gets off cuts and lobs.

Yeah if you look at the points per possession after an offensive rebound you will see that it is far below 2. A quick google search led me to data from 2020 that showed just less than 1.2. Which is a great possession mind you, but your scenario leads to 6 points not 10 which is just a massive, massive difference.

6 points is a insane amount of off ball value, although you would need to compare it to the positional average for offensive rebounding

for reference 18 and 19 Steven Adams peaked at 5 offensive rebounds a game and he didnt seem to have huge offensive impact off that alone (although i loved him in those okc teams)

falcolombardi wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:

kendogg wrote: If Rodman pulls down 5 offensive rebounds a game, thats 10 ppg in addition to his actual 10 ppg he gets off cuts and lobs.

Yeah if you look at the points per possession after an offensive rebound you will see that it is far below 2. A quick google search led me to data from 2020 that showed just less than 1.2. Which is a great possession mind you, but your scenario leads to 6 points not 10 which is just a massive, massive difference.

6 points is a insane amount of off ball value, although you would need to compare it to the positional average for offensive rebounding

for reference 18 and 19 Steven Adams peaked at 5 offensive rebounds a game and he didnt seem to have huge offensive impact off that alone (although i loved him in those okc teams)

It's not that simple either. If Rodman is getting 5 offensive rebounds, no Rodman probably doesn't mean zero offensive rebounds on those possessions. If a team isn't playing Rodman/stretch 5 they are probably playing center/stretch 4. And that center is probably going to get 2 or 3 of the 5 Rodman gets you based on average rebounding rates. And if we look at offensive rebounding rate which is what matters more than raw numbers we see other guys who have been close to Rodman. Does Enes Freedom change the game for teams with his offensive rebounding prowess? Drummond?

Now Rodman does a lot of other valuable things, and his offensive rebounding certainly would have value. Just not the kind of value that is being sold here.

falcolombardi wrote:if you time machine'd Dennis rodman at his rebounding peak with the bulls and spurs into modern league how much value do you think he would bring?

there is other concerns with rodman like spacing, but assuming he was in a team that was happy with him being primarly a offensive rebounder in offense

how valuable is his offensive rebounding considering the different makeup and style of the league?

how much value does his defensive rebounding add compared to other bigs (rodman was not that big but you get what i mean)

what is the value off individual rebounding centers in the modern game?
is it more valuable for a big to Box out or take the rebounds himself?
is the benefit of going for offensive rebounds compared to the spacing or defensive transition issues?

how would other great rebounder like moses malone far in today league in value, based specifically in the rebounding part ?

With only a couple of strong rebounding bigs in the NBA today Rodman would probably average 40 rebounds per game.

Texas Chuck wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:
Yeah if you look at the points per possession after an offensive rebound you will see that it is far below 2. A quick google search led me to data from 2020 that showed just less than 1.2. Which is a great possession mind you, but your scenario leads to 6 points not 10 which is just a massive, massive difference.

6 points is a insane amount of off ball value, although you would need to compare it to the positional average for offensive rebounding

for reference 18 and 19 Steven Adams peaked at 5 offensive rebounds a game and he didnt seem to have huge offensive impact off that alone (although i loved him in those okc teams)

It's not that simple either. If Rodman is getting 5 offensive rebounds, no Rodman probably doesn't mean zero offensive rebounds on those possessions. If a team isn't playing Rodman/stretch 5 they are probably playing center/stretch 4. And that center is probably going to get 2 or 3 of the 5 Rodman gets you based on average rebounding rates. And if we look at offensive rebounding rate which is what matters more than raw numbers we see other guys who have been close to Rodman. Does Enes Freedom change the game for teams with his offensive rebounding prowess? Drummond?

Now Rodman does a lot of other valuable things, and his offensive rebounding certainly would have value. Just not the kind of value that is being sold here.

It was a gross simplification, but the value of offensive rebounding is still very high, which was my point. And yes those guys would have tremendous value as offensive rebounders if they didn't have so many other liabilities in other areas (defense mainly).

Still extremely valuable. Offensive rebounders are rarer than ever and they could have game changing impact on his teams. Especially mobile one like prime Rodman.

Maybe he gets 10% less rebounds because higher shooting percentage has decreased the number of rebounds. Also some of the long rebounds from 3s will be too long for Rodman even though Rodman was great at long rebounds.

Often the pro-modern camp criticizes past era bigs by saying they can't switch onto a guard at the 3 point line. Well there are not many power forwards that that coukd do a better job than Rodman when switched onto a guard.

Why couldn't Rodman shoot? Watching him rebound there is no way that he had bad hands. I think he had a Panic disorder when shooting. With Rodman's spped and athleticism he would be a fantastic screen roller if only he could put the ball in the hoop.
Since Robin can't shoot even a lay up on the screen roll he will will have to screen and then roll for the offensive rebound rather than roll to catch and shot.

What do you do with a non-shooter in the modern offense? You have the non-shooters set screens for shooters . Rodman was smart. I'm sure he would have no problem turning himself into a screener for the three point shooters and then he can get their long rebounds.

Rodman was also an above average passer .

I think if guys like Gobert and Jokic can average 14-15 rebounds per game it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Rodman would grab between 15-20 rebounds per game himself. Rodman was battling much tougher bigs than are in todays game. He’d bully most of the bigs in todays game. And honestly 15-20 rebounds per game might be light, he could average closer to 20-25 boards per game in today’s era.

I'm inclined not to isolate Rodman's rebounding from Rodman. Maybe others are more confident and have precise or at least informed means of doing so.

In an adjacent era Fortson and Evans got multi-season spells into the 23trb% zone (actually Evans's most prolific years were more recent but even earlier he was in that vague vicinity) 97-14 RAPM suggest both were small negatives (on off paints Fortson more favorably and Evans worse).

I think there's evidence that certainly some versions of rebounding Rodman (thinking late Detroit here) were very impactful.

Mind you, Rodman might be a bigger distraction today too, in his ... colorful era.

penbeast0 wrote:Completely useless. I mean who needs a GOAT rebounding when he can't even shoot the 3?

nevertheless its hard to imagine a guy like rodman in todays league.his switchability and great understanding of tze game may make up for his lack of offense.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Maybe he gets 10% less rebounds because higher shooting percentage has decreased the number of rebounds.

Rebounds are increased over Rodman's era.

Shot clock not resetting to a full 24 after offensive rebounds today would probably kill a bit of the value (as I think it has over the past few seasons). You see fewer teams allocate bodies to the offensive boards now than you did even a few years ago when offensive rebounding was at a low.

That said I think that elite offensive rebounders possibly are even more valuable now since so few guys are good enough to do it consistently.

Just a couple of numbers:
89.8, the league average of total rebounds in a game
59.6, the league average of rebounds within a teams reach
30.1, the league average of those rebounds which are uncontested
18.8, the league average of rebounds which are double contested

All of these are per 48.3 minutes.
Basically you would bring in Rodman to have a chance to battle for about 19.5 boards, given that he would play 32 minutes a game. Most of them would probably not within his reach, given the situation, the switch made and the type of play. So I don't really know if he would be that world class outlier in rebounds in today. I also doubt if it would be that valuable. I mean, the Lakers were outrebounded 56-28 a couple of days ago and still won the game.