S&T deals for Ayton

[thesack12]

Ayton would offensively be what Bagley was for us last season. Anyone who was watching knows how valuable that was and how energizing to our team. Now you're thinking "but we can have Bagley for much cheaper." Yes, definitely, and I'm not at all against going that route. But the reason Ayton is worth more is that he's much better on defense and you can keep him on the court longer, IMO.

Of course Ayton, and what he provides has value.

As always it comes down to cost. Is it worth it for a 23 win team that is short on assets to hand a guy with a limited skillset a 4 year max + trade away assets for the right to give him that contract?

Every player in the league has a "limited skillset" if you want to put it that way. Ayton is a starting level NBA Center and has shown he can be that on 60+ win and finals level teams. You can win with him as your 5 and you can win with him as one of your best 3 players. And he's young enough that you can reasonably expect he can still grow.

So it 100% depends on the assets you're trading.

Fwiw, I don't think this is a 23 win team if we're healthy and we have natural growth and improvement. Even without adding anything to last year's roster other than health, time together, and internal player improvements (with Cade in particular) I think we can add 5-10 wins to that total. Add an Ayton, and I think we move to play-in consideration, depending on what we have to give up in terms of assets.

How many players on max contracts, basically never handle the ball? How many max contract players have next to no ability to stretch the floor semi effectively? How many max contract players have next to no playmaking ability?

It took 43 wins to make the play in this season. So if we are using that as a base, Detroit would need a 20 win improvement just to make it in next season. That is a COLOSSAL jump from one season to the next. I can agree that Detroit probably has 5-7 more wins in them with Cade being healthy all season, internal growth, and if #5 has a solid early impact. But I'd be very hard to convince that Ayton is capable of adding 10 wins on his own.

[Slim Charless]

Being historically cheap like 15 years ago, is not the same as what the trend has been recently.
No, but it a trend and trends tend to repeat eventually as I'll show you.

Suns have fired 4 different coaches since 2015. So they have been carrying the cost to pay multiple coaches to go away for several years running. How many coaches are they still currently paying?
Coaches they didn't sign to big deals.
No matter how you slice it, its additional money being paid out that is un-necessary.

They traded a lot of short term salary + a 1st for a 35 year old Chris Paul and his $40+ mil/season contract. Then turned around and gave a 36 year old Chris Paul a 4 year $120 million extension.
Yes and look where that choice has gotten him-with significantly higher ticket prices. BTW the same year he made the choice to trade for Paul was less than a yr removed from when ESPN made him the cover story about what a trainwreck he is and how the NBA itself was worried about the Suns and if they'd ever be a winning team. He got heckled way worse than Dolan at his own arena.....and despite all of that it took Chris Paul coming to the Suns and talking them into that trade. $arver didn't want to do it.

You might want to check your timeframes on that ESPN article. It released at the beginning of this season, 1 year AFTER the Chris Paul trade...
You do realize that there was a time not long before CP3 got traded to Phoenix that his contract was considered basically untradeable. And when he was traded to OKC, the Rockets had to attach several Assets to him to dump him along with eat another monster contract on top of it.
Yea, and then he made the ASG with the Thunder and took them to the playoffs where they almost beat Houston. That ESPN article was absolutely not released after the CP3 to us. This is what I meant when I said you don't know what you're talking about. Chris Paul was not on the Suns when they released it. We had Rubio and were doing awful-again.

They bought Aaron Holiday for cash.
LOL. Ok
Cheap owners don't buy players for cash
Yes, they do. When they're getting a discount.

They gave Bridges a big extension which equates to 15+% of their cap.
Mikal took a decent discount and that has turned into a a massive discount. He could've gotten 25m last season and settled for 20 w/ ....a 5M a yr discount
So they Gave Bridges an early extension, when they didn't have (see Deandre Ayton situation), and its turned out well for them so far. What you are trying to spin as a sign of being cheap, I call saavy decision making.
It was a saavy move, and the only reason why they signed him is because wait for it: Mikal took a smaller deal then he could've gotten.

They traded spare parts for a free agent to be Landry Shamet, then gave him a 4 year extension that is more than MLE money.
His contract is not fully guaranteed, he is our coach's absolute favorite player-to the turn of him wanting the guy to marry his daughter. Monty no doubt forced his hand somewhat and again it's a cheap deal.
A team wanting to acquire and keep a player the HC likes. Wow, what a crazy concept.


They gave Payne a multi year extension north of BAE money.
Less than what he could've gotten on the open market but he liked the system, CP3, Monty and felt a sense of loyalty after the team found him in China
Payne was a unrestricted free agent, he was on the open market.
.......coming from our system. Which is why he re-signed. He could've made more off the year he had just had but took a hometown discount.

They bought Torrey Craig from the Bucks for cash.
Pennies on the dollar
Again cheap owners don't buy players for cash.

They gave 30 year old Jae Crowder a 3 year/30 mil extension.
The full MLE at the time and Jae had no other offers. Again, not like he's spending major currency.
Crowder was coming of a very good Finals run with Miami and has been a great glue guy his entire career, and you are claiming he had no other offers?
I'm claiming that we offered the best deal. This is probably 1 instance of him paying.

They gave a 3 year extension to Dario Saric.
Traded for I thought and his deal is minor
Phoenix traded for Saric in 2019, gave him an extension in 2020.
The deal was for 10m...not exactly big time.

They signed Kelly Oubre to a multi year contract well north of MLE money.

They gave Booker a full max.
The only good player on the team at the time. I mean, you DO understand that he needs to sell tickets in order to make money correct? Maxing Book was an easy choice if he doesn't have any other guys to pay for
Of course this was an easy choice. Its the only move on this list that had to be made.
So why did you bring it up? You're making like re-signing Book was some major point you got on me about him not being cheap.

It sure seems like there aren't many instances in the last handful of years where Phoenix has made basketball decisions primarily predicated on finances. They have brought in money on several occasions, spent A LOT of money to keep their guys, they haven't lost any free agents that they were overly concerned about keeping, they haven't made any cost cutting trades, and they have been paying multiple coaches for several years now.

Now admittedly, I don't regularly follow the Suns' operations so I might be missing something. But it sure seems like they have not been operating on a decidedly cost conscious mindset the last few years.

All in all $arver has done the bare minimum and even if he wasn't a notorious cheapass-which he is (serious can't believe you're arguing this btw as this was the running joke with PHX across RealGM until the last 2 years).....he is also 1 of the league's poorest owners as well. There's a semi-decent chance that if the Suns traded for LeBron (for Ayton coincidently enough) him and Chris Paul combined could probably buy and sell $arver.

He's easily the cheapest owner in the NBA and 1 of the dumbest...but I again doubt he's dumb and cheap enough to let Ayton walk scott free. I say that because I think DET is on the short list of Ayton teams.

I totally get that you are spurned with Robert Sarver. His historic tendencies do reflect a tendency to be cheap, and apparently he's not a good guy either. So I completely understand that Suns fans will always remain skeptical about the guys' motivations.

That said, there has been a noticeable shift in how the Suns have operated in the last handful of years. They had a great showing in the bubble, which was noticed by management and ownership. They were aware that they had a legitimate stud in Booker, and decided to build a team around him and go for it. Its largely been a big success so far.

You can attempt to mitigate each of these moves above on an individual basis, but the fact of the matter is that as a conglomeration it certainly shows a willingness to spend money to build and keep this current team together.

In the past few years of building this group, they have not lost any free agents they cared to keep nor have they made any cost cutting trades.

Which brings us to the Deandre Ayton free agency situation, which is what has sparked this entire conversation. As has been the trend the last few seasons, Phoenix does not have a problem spending money. MOST ESPECIALLY when it comes to keeping their own guys. So this recent trend shows that if they value Ayton highly, they will retain him.

Even if Sarver reverts back to his past nature by getting antsy and wants to pinch pennies, they can still keep Ayton. Phoenix has several very tradeable contracts (along with owning every one of their picks after the 2022 draft.) So they have several avenues to free up money to make room for an Ayton extension.

I'm not saying moving pieces to bring back Ayton is the right move, because of course at some point that becomes counter productive. I'm simply saying Phoenix is far from handcuffed in this situation.

Eventually Sarver will probably revert back to his mean, but he hasn't been cheap with THIS team.

The key question here is, how much does Phoenix value Deandre Ayton?

To summerize: Sarver has paid some money, mostly after the cap went up but he has gotten a deal on almost every player that is currently on the team. Now kudos to him for talking guys into taking discounts but that doesn't mean that he's changed. The Torrey Craig deal is a great example brought up by 1 of the guys in here. They passed on his option due to wanting to avoid an xt few million. That was done to off-set the money that he grudgingly spent on this CP3 team.

All in all, your posts read like what they are: someone who's watched Suns games when they come on National TV and that pretty much ends your interest and knowledge of them. Your point about Ayton come from you not wanting him and your points on Sarver come from you not wanting Ayton. You're wrong on almost all of them.

You can not want Ayton, I understand that. But most of your posts in this thread (and I've read the entire thread) as it relates to how he plays, the attention we give him and most importantly Robert Sarver are wrong. Very wrong.

[thesack12]

To summerize: Sarver has paid some money, mostly after the cap went up but he has gotten a deal on almost every player that is currently on the team. Now kudos to him for talking guys into taking discounts but that doesn't mean that he's changed. The Torrey Craig deal is a great example brought up by 1 of the guys in here. They passed on his option due to wanting to avoid an xt few million. That was done to off-set the money that he grudgingly spent on this CP3 team.

All in all, your posts read like what they are: someone who's watched Suns games when they come on National TV and that pretty much ends your interest and knowledge of them. Your point about Ayton come from you not wanting him and your points on Sarver come from you not wanting Ayton. You're wrong on almost all of them.

You can not want Ayton, I understand that. But most of your posts in this thread (and I've read the entire thread) as it relates to how he plays, the attention we give him and most importantly Robert Sarver are wrong. Very wrong.

You are clearly spurned by Sarver (understandably so) and are a Deandre Ayton fan. So based solely on your comments in this thread, if Ayton does not come back to Phoenix in your mind its going to be Sarver's fault no matter what. There will be no consideration to think that Ayton's value and his cost might not fall within a workable balance for Phoenix's operation.

Also, anybody can accuse someone of being "wrong, very wrong" without anything tangible to fortify that statement. Which is called having an opinion which is perfectly fine, but on its own its a pretty weak argument.

Pistons fans in here have made better cases than you have that Ayton is worth what he's asking for.

[Slim Charless]

To summerize: Sarver has paid some money, mostly after the cap went up but he has gotten a deal on almost every player that is currently on the team. Now kudos to him for talking guys into taking discounts but that doesn't mean that he's changed. The Torrey Craig deal is a great example brought up by 1 of the guys in here. They passed on his option due to wanting to avoid an xt few million. That was done to off-set the money that he grudgingly spent on this CP3 team.

All in all, your posts read like what they are: someone who's watched Suns games when they come on National TV and that pretty much ends your interest and knowledge of them. Your point about Ayton come from you not wanting him and your points on Sarver come from you not wanting Ayton. You're wrong on almost all of them.

You can not want Ayton, I understand that. But most of your posts in this thread (and I've read the entire thread) as it relates to how he plays, the attention we give him and most importantly Robert Sarver are wrong. Very wrong.

You are clearly spurned by Sarver (understandably so) and are a Deandre Ayton fan. So based solely on your comments in this thread, if Ayton does not come back to Phoenix in your mind its going to be Sarver's fault no matter what. There will be no consideration to think that Ayton's value and his cost might not fall within a workable balance for Phoenix's operation.

Also, anybody can accuse someone of being "wrong, very wrong" without anything tangible to fortify that statement. Which is called having an opinion, but on its own its a pretty weak argument.

Pistons fans in here have made better cases than you have that Ayton is worth what he's asking for.

Meh. I've actually accepted the fact that Ayton's done in PHX. I'd be surprised if he's a Sun come Nov. Where me and you have issues is the Sarver being cheap thing. It's literally the first thing anyone says when bringing him up.

I've already said that if you don't want Ayton I completely understand. 132M is a lot.

[thesack12]

To summerize: Sarver has paid some money, mostly after the cap went up but he has gotten a deal on almost every player that is currently on the team. Now kudos to him for talking guys into taking discounts but that doesn't mean that he's changed. The Torrey Craig deal is a great example brought up by 1 of the guys in here. They passed on his option due to wanting to avoid an xt few million. That was done to off-set the money that he grudgingly spent on this CP3 team.

All in all, your posts read like what they are: someone who's watched Suns games when they come on National TV and that pretty much ends your interest and knowledge of them. Your point about Ayton come from you not wanting him and your points on Sarver come from you not wanting Ayton. You're wrong on almost all of them.

You can not want Ayton, I understand that. But most of your posts in this thread (and I've read the entire thread) as it relates to how he plays, the attention we give him and most importantly Robert Sarver are wrong. Very wrong.

You are clearly spurned by Sarver (understandably so) and are a Deandre Ayton fan. So based solely on your comments in this thread, if Ayton does not come back to Phoenix in your mind its going to be Sarver's fault no matter what. There will be no consideration to think that Ayton's value and his cost might not fall within a workable balance for Phoenix's operation.

Also, anybody can accuse someone of being "wrong, very wrong" without anything tangible to fortify that statement. Which is called having an opinion, but on its own its a pretty weak argument.

Pistons fans in here have made better cases than you have that Ayton is worth what he's asking for.

Meh. I've actually accepted the fact that Ayton's done in PHX. I'd be surprised if he's a Sun come Nov. Where me and you have issues is the Sarver being cheap thing. It's literally the first thing anyone says when bringing him up.

I've already said that if you don't want Ayton I completely understand. 132M is a lot.

+1 for the first time we have agreed on something

[DBC10]

To summerize: Sarver has paid some money, mostly after the cap went up but he has gotten a deal on almost every player that is currently on the team. Now kudos to him for talking guys into taking discounts but that doesn't mean that he's changed. The Torrey Craig deal is a great example brought up by 1 of the guys in here. They passed on his option due to wanting to avoid an xt few million. That was done to off-set the money that he grudgingly spent on this CP3 team.

All in all, your posts read like what they are: someone who's watched Suns games when they come on National TV and that pretty much ends your interest and knowledge of them. Your point about Ayton come from you not wanting him and your points on Sarver come from you not wanting Ayton. You're wrong on almost all of them.

You can not want Ayton, I understand that. But most of your posts in this thread (and I've read the entire thread) as it relates to how he plays, the attention we give him and most importantly Robert Sarver are wrong. Very wrong.

You are clearly spurned by Sarver (understandably so) and are a Deandre Ayton fan. So based solely on your comments in this thread, if Ayton does not come back to Phoenix in your mind its going to be Sarver's fault no matter what. There will be no consideration to think that Ayton's value and his cost might not fall within a workable balance for Phoenix's operation.

Also, anybody can accuse someone of being "wrong, very wrong" without anything tangible to fortify that statement. Which is called having an opinion, but on its own its a pretty weak argument.

Pistons fans in here have made better cases than you have that Ayton is worth what he's asking for.

Meh. I've actually accepted the fact that Ayton's done in PHX. I'd be surprised if he's a Sun come Nov. Where me and you have issues is the Sarver being cheap thing. It's literally the first thing anyone says when bringing him up.

I've already said that if you don't want Ayton I completely understand. 132M is a lot.

Is that really the intel on Ayton in this off-season? I know he had that press release from his agent saying they felt disrespected but didn't know if that was just agent speak to "get a deal done" to pressure Sarver and James Jones?

Obviously it depends on Ayton but I think it'd be insane if PHX doesn't run it back

[Manocad]

I feel the exact same, all you did here is regurgitate your past comments.

And yours has been "He doesn't create offense for others and lives off dump offs." So what? Cade, Bey, (potentially still) Grant and the #5 pick in this draft need someone to create offense for them? LOL. None of them struggle to score; they sometimes struggle to hit open shots. Someone they can dump off to who can score efficiently would be a PERFECT fit.

And the idea that a guy who hits at 63% and 0.41 dribbles per touch is someone living off the space other people have created for him? Seriously? You clearly haven't watched Ayton play.

Without Chris Paul in the 2019-2020 season Ayton had a usage rate of 23.7 which resulted in:

Ayton carried a .546 FG%... 8th Among centers
Ayton carries a .548 EFG%...12th among centers
Ayton carried a .568 TS%... 18th among centers
Ayton carried a .121 Win shares/48 minutes... 22nd among centers

Compared to the Chris Paul years

In 2020-2021 Ayton had a usage rate of 18.2 which resulted in:

Ayton carried a .626 FG%...4th among centers
Ayton carrries a .629 EFG%...4th among centers
Ayton carried a .653 TS%... 6th among centers
Ayton carried a .191 win shares/48 minutes... 11th among centers

In 2021-2022 Ayton had a usage rate of 21.4 which resulted in:

Ayton carried a .634 FG%...4th among centers
Ayton carried a .639 EFG%...4th among centers
Ayton carried a .656 TS%... 6th among centers
Ayton carried a .203 win shares/48 minutes: 8th among centers

So Ayton's efficiency that you are championing was substantially lower across the board without Chris Paul, especially when you consider he was on higher usage that season.

I also find it interesting that you are trying to paint this picture that Ayton doesn't have any plays ran for him. The funny thing about that is Ayton took the 2nd most shots on the team with 12.6. Which is 15% of Phoenix's total shot attempts.

When you take that and factor in that Ayton clearly doesn't handle the ball, as your .41 dribble stat shows, can you please explain to me how he is getting possession of the ball to put up all these shots? Are they all broken plays, and putbacks?

I'm not painting a picture that Ayton has no plays run for him; that was an Phoenix fan saying that. So Ayton can't be successful with any point guard other than Chris Paul? You keep asking me questions that clearly imply you've never watched him play. I think you're simply looking at 17/10 and saying "Not worth $32 million; don't want him." And as I've said numerous times, that's fine. But you're still failing to make any solid argument that he wouldn't make THIS team a LOT better, and I'm not the only one telling you that.

You're operating under this premise that Ayton can't create offense for himself or for others so that makes him a player not only not worth his upcoming contract, but not even a good fit for this team. I'm operating under the premise that at 63% if he took 16 shots a game he'd score 20 points with no FT attempts. And the Pistons don't have good scoring in the middle right now. He would make this team a lot better, and if he plays 36 MPG and puts up his per of 22/12.5, he IS going to be worth $32 million with the way salaries and the cap are going. And who knows--he's 23. Maybe with this team and good utilization of his skills he puts up 25 PPG.

[thesack12]

And yours has been "He doesn't create offense for others and lives off dump offs." So what? Cade, Bey, (potentially still) Grant and the #5 pick in this draft need someone to create offense for them? LOL. None of them struggle to score; they sometimes struggle to hit open shots. Someone they can dump off to who can score efficiently would be a PERFECT fit.

And the idea that a guy who hits at 63% and 0.41 dribbles per touch is someone living off the space other people have created for him? Seriously? You clearly haven't watched Ayton play.

Without Chris Paul in the 2019-2020 season Ayton had a usage rate of 23.7 which resulted in:

Ayton carried a .546 FG%... 8th Among centers
Ayton carries a .548 EFG%...12th among centers
Ayton carried a .568 TS%... 18th among centers
Ayton carried a .121 Win shares/48 minutes... 22nd among centers

Compared to the Chris Paul years

In 2020-2021 Ayton had a usage rate of 18.2 which resulted in:

Ayton carried a .626 FG%...4th among centers
Ayton carrries a .629 EFG%...4th among centers
Ayton carried a .653 TS%... 6th among centers
Ayton carried a .191 win shares/48 minutes... 11th among centers

In 2021-2022 Ayton had a usage rate of 21.4 which resulted in:

Ayton carried a .634 FG%...4th among centers
Ayton carried a .639 EFG%...4th among centers
Ayton carried a .656 TS%... 6th among centers
Ayton carried a .203 win shares/48 minutes: 8th among centers

So Ayton's efficiency that you are championing was substantially lower across the board without Chris Paul, especially when you consider he was on higher usage that season.

I also find it interesting that you are trying to paint this picture that Ayton doesn't have any plays ran for him. The funny thing about that is Ayton took the 2nd most shots on the team with 12.6. Which is 15% of Phoenix's total shot attempts.

When you take that and factor in that Ayton clearly doesn't handle the ball, as your .41 dribble stat shows, can you please explain to me how he is getting possession of the ball to put up all these shots? Are they all broken plays, and putbacks?

I'm not painting a picture that Ayton has no plays run for him; that was an Phoenix fan saying that. So Ayton can't be successful with any point guard other than Chris Paul? You keep asking me questions that clearly imply you've never watched him play. I think you're simply looking at 17/10 and saying "Not worth $32 million; don't want him." And as I've said numerous times, that's fine. But you're still failing to make any solid argument that he wouldn't make THIS team a LOT better, and I'm not the only one telling you that.

You're operating under this premise that Ayton can't create offense for himself or for others so that makes him a player not only not worth his upcoming contract, but not even a good fit for this team. I'm operating under the premise that at 63% if he took 16 shots a game he'd score 20 points with no FT attempts. And the Pistons don't have good scoring in the middle right now. He would make this team a lot better, and if he plays 36 MPG and puts up his per of 22/12.5, he IS going to be worth $32 million with the way salaries and the cap are going. And who knows--he's 23. Maybe with this team and good utilization of his skills he puts up 25 PPG.

LOL, dude you really have a bad habit of moving the goal posts that you originally planted yourself.

In this thread:

Manocad said:

Funny, because I keep seeing NBA champions with MVP-level/traditional centers. Go figure.

I then went on to show you that literally zero of those types of centers have won a ring in the last 10 years, then later you change your tune tune to say:

I don't care if you want to call them a PF or a C; that's not the point. Most NBA champions had a dominant big man.

Later you go on to say:

What part of a 20/12 center did you miss?

I told you I missed every bit of that, because Ayton never has been one, as he's a career 16.3/10.5 guy and never has crossed either of the thresholds you mentioned. Then you went on to change it to:

He's at 17.2/10.2 in 29 MPG with a PER36 of 22.

Now you are claiming that you haven't been trying to paint a picture that Ayton has no plays run for him. Yet this quote is taken directly from you earlier in the thread...

He shoots 63% from the floor with zero plays being run for him and 0.41 dribbles per possession

Its incredibly unproductive have a debate with somebody that constantly walks back on their own words, so I'm done with it.

[Slim Charless]

You are clearly spurned by Sarver (understandably so) and are a Deandre Ayton fan. So based solely on your comments in this thread, if Ayton does not come back to Phoenix in your mind its going to be Sarver's fault no matter what. There will be no consideration to think that Ayton's value and his cost might not fall within a workable balance for Phoenix's operation.

Also, anybody can accuse someone of being "wrong, very wrong" without anything tangible to fortify that statement. Which is called having an opinion, but on its own its a pretty weak argument.

Pistons fans in here have made better cases than you have that Ayton is worth what he's asking for.

Meh. I've actually accepted the fact that Ayton's done in PHX. I'd be surprised if he's a Sun come Nov. Where me and you have issues is the Sarver being cheap thing. It's literally the first thing anyone says when bringing him up.

I've already said that if you don't want Ayton I completely understand. 132M is a lot.

Is that really the intel on Ayton in this off-season? I know he had that press release from his agent saying they felt disrespected but didn't know if that was just agent speak to "get a deal done" to pressure Sarver and James Jones?

Obviously it depends on Ayton but I think it'd be insane if PHX doesn't run it back

Anything can happen but to me personally it seems like we're too far gone. That said, a 5/172 deal can mend alot of hurt feelings if we offer that to Ayton. Not confident they will. But once again, they won't just let him walk w/o getting compensated accordingly.

[Manocad]

Without Chris Paul in the 2019-2020 season Ayton had a usage rate of 23.7 which resulted in:

Ayton carried a .546 FG%... 8th Among centers
Ayton carries a .548 EFG%...12th among centers
Ayton carried a .568 TS%... 18th among centers
Ayton carried a .121 Win shares/48 minutes... 22nd among centers

Compared to the Chris Paul years

In 2020-2021 Ayton had a usage rate of 18.2 which resulted in:

Ayton carried a .626 FG%...4th among centers
Ayton carrries a .629 EFG%...4th among centers
Ayton carried a .653 TS%... 6th among centers
Ayton carried a .191 win shares/48 minutes... 11th among centers

In 2021-2022 Ayton had a usage rate of 21.4 which resulted in:

Ayton carried a .634 FG%...4th among centers
Ayton carried a .639 EFG%...4th among centers
Ayton carried a .656 TS%... 6th among centers
Ayton carried a .203 win shares/48 minutes: 8th among centers

So Ayton's efficiency that you are championing was substantially lower across the board without Chris Paul, especially when you consider he was on higher usage that season.

I also find it interesting that you are trying to paint this picture that Ayton doesn't have any plays ran for him. The funny thing about that is Ayton took the 2nd most shots on the team with 12.6. Which is 15% of Phoenix's total shot attempts.

When you take that and factor in that Ayton clearly doesn't handle the ball, as your .41 dribble stat shows, can you please explain to me how he is getting possession of the ball to put up all these shots? Are they all broken plays, and putbacks?

I'm not painting a picture that Ayton has no plays run for him; that was an Phoenix fan saying that. So Ayton can't be successful with any point guard other than Chris Paul? You keep asking me questions that clearly imply you've never watched him play. I think you're simply looking at 17/10 and saying "Not worth $32 million; don't want him." And as I've said numerous times, that's fine. But you're still failing to make any solid argument that he wouldn't make THIS team a LOT better, and I'm not the only one telling you that.

You're operating under this premise that Ayton can't create offense for himself or for others so that makes him a player not only not worth his upcoming contract, but not even a good fit for this team. I'm operating under the premise that at 63% if he took 16 shots a game he'd score 20 points with no FT attempts. And the Pistons don't have good scoring in the middle right now. He would make this team a lot better, and if he plays 36 MPG and puts up his per of 22/12.5, he IS going to be worth $32 million with the way salaries and the cap are going. And who knows--he's 23. Maybe with this team and good utilization of his skills he puts up 25 PPG.

LOL, dude you really have a bad habit of moving the goal posts that you originally planted yourself.

In this thread:

Manocad said:

Funny, because I keep seeing NBA champions with MVP-level/traditional centers. Go figure.

I then went on to show you that literally zero of those types of centers have won a ring in the last 10 years, then later you change your tune tune to say:

I don't care if you want to call them a PF or a C; that's not the point. Most NBA champions had a dominant big man.

Later you go on to say:

What part of a 20/12 center did you miss?

I told you I missed every bit of that, because Ayton never has been one, as he's a career 16.3/10.5 guy and never has crossed either of the thresholds you mentioned. Then you went on to change it to:

He's at 17.2/10.2 in 29 MPG with a PER36 of 22.

Now you are claiming that you haven't been trying to paint a picture that Ayton has no plays run for him. Yet this quote is taken directly from you earlier in the thread...

He shoots 63% from the floor with zero plays being run for him and 0.41 dribbles per possession

Its incredibly unproductive have a debate with somebody that constantly walks back on their own words, so I'm done with it.

In other words, you don't have a good counterargument. I already pointed that out.

[thesack12]

Meh. I've actually accepted the fact that Ayton's done in PHX. I'd be surprised if he's a Sun come Nov. Where me and you have issues is the Sarver being cheap thing. It's literally the first thing anyone says when bringing him up.

I've already said that if you don't want Ayton I completely understand. 132M is a lot.

Is that really the intel on Ayton in this off-season? I know he had that press release from his agent saying they felt disrespected but didn't know if that was just agent speak to "get a deal done" to pressure Sarver and James Jones?

Obviously it depends on Ayton but I think it'd be insane if PHX doesn't run it back

Anything can happen but to me personally it seems like we're too far gone. That said, a 5/172 deal can mend alot of hurt feelings if we offer that to Ayton. Not confident they will. But once again, they won't just let him walk w/o getting compensated accordingly.

Considering Paul is 37, Phoenix's window doesn't have a long shelf life. So I doubt they would be looking for picks as the primary piece in a Ayton S&T scenario.

In which case, what would a satisfactory return look like?

[flow]

Is that really the intel on Ayton in this off-season? I know he had that press release from his agent saying they felt disrespected but didn't know if that was just agent speak to "get a deal done" to pressure Sarver and James Jones?

Obviously it depends on Ayton but I think it'd be insane if PHX doesn't run it back

Anything can happen but to me personally it seems like we're too far gone. That said, a 5/172 deal can mend alot of hurt feelings if we offer that to Ayton. Not confident they will. But once again, they won't just let him walk w/o getting compensated accordingly.

Considering Paul is 37, Phoenix's window doesn't have a long shelf life. So I doubt they would be looking for picks as the primary piece in a Ayton S&T scenario.

In which case, what would a satisfactory return look like?

Phoenix's window doesn't open or close with Chris Paul. Booker is the franchise player.

[thesack12]

Anything can happen but to me personally it seems like we're too far gone. That said, a 5/172 deal can mend alot of hurt feelings if we offer that to Ayton. Not confident they will. But once again, they won't just let him walk w/o getting compensated accordingly.

Considering Paul is 37, Phoenix's window doesn't have a long shelf life. So I doubt they would be looking for picks as the primary piece in a Ayton S&T scenario.

In which case, what would a satisfactory return look like?

Phoenix's window doesn't open or close with Chris Paul. Booker is the franchise player.

Of course Booker is their franchise player. But are you seriously implying that Chris Paul does not effect their window?

[tmorgan]

If Booker is your franchise player, you aren’t winning anything. He’s very good, mind you, but he’s entirely containable with playoff-level defensive focus.

With very few exceptions, championships are won with a player that just cannot be stopped when they’re on. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Hakeem, Dirk, LeBron, Giannis, Durant, Curry, etc. Yeah, I know, our own 2004 team was an exception.

Booker is not that guy. Not enough handle, playmaking, size, or athleticism. Yes, his midrange game on the move is elite, but that’s just not enough.

[Slim Charless]

Is that really the intel on Ayton in this off-season? I know he had that press release from his agent saying they felt disrespected but didn't know if that was just agent speak to "get a deal done" to pressure Sarver and James Jones?

Obviously it depends on Ayton but I think it'd be insane if PHX doesn't run it back

Anything can happen but to me personally it seems like we're too far gone. That said, a 5/172 deal can mend alot of hurt feelings if we offer that to Ayton. Not confident they will. But once again, they won't just let him walk w/o getting compensated accordingly.

Considering Paul is 37, Phoenix's window doesn't have a long shelf life. So I doubt they would be looking for picks as the primary piece in a Ayton S&T scenario.

In which case, what would a satisfactory return look like?

From you guys or in general as it relates to the rest of the NBA?

[thesack12]

Anything can happen but to me personally it seems like we're too far gone. That said, a 5/172 deal can mend alot of hurt feelings if we offer that to Ayton. Not confident they will. But once again, they won't just let him walk w/o getting compensated accordingly.

Considering Paul is 37, Phoenix's window doesn't have a long shelf life. So I doubt they would be looking for picks as the primary piece in a Ayton S&T scenario.

In which case, what would a satisfactory return look like?

From you guys or in general as it relates to the rest of the NBA?

In general.

You already reflected earlier on what you'd be hunting from Detroit and we both know I'm not overly interested in Ayton

[flow]

Considering Paul is 37, Phoenix's window doesn't have a long shelf life. So I doubt they would be looking for picks as the primary piece in a Ayton S&T scenario.

In which case, what would a satisfactory return look like?

Phoenix's window doesn't open or close with Chris Paul. Booker is the franchise player.

Of course Booker is their franchise player. But are you seriously implying that Chris Paul does not effect their window?

It may a little. They'd rather have him than not. But he's not irreplaceable. Especially the way he played in the 2nd half of the Dallas series and the last couple games of last year's Bucks series. Teams have managed to avoid winning championships with Chris Paul his entire career.

[thesack12]

Phoenix's window doesn't open or close with Chris Paul. Booker is the franchise player.

Of course Booker is their franchise player. But are you seriously implying that Chris Paul does not effect their window?

It may a little. They'd rather have him than not. But he's not irreplaceable. Especially the way he played in the 2nd half of the Dallas series. Teams have managed to avoid winning championships with Chris Paul his entire career.

Well they currently have Cameron Payne, Elfrid Payton, and Aaron Holiday to attempt to replace him. He was also banged up in that Dallas series, although being 37 years old that's not surprising and will be a constant concern for him moving forward.

There are many HOF'ers that haven't won a championship. Chris Paul will enter the hall, the question remains if he will do so wearing finger jewelry.

[Jsindto]

If Booker is your franchise player, you aren’t winning anything. He’s very good, mind you, but he’s entirely containable with playoff-level defensive focus.

With very few exceptions, championships are won with a player that just cannot be stopped when they’re on. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Hakeem, Dirk, LeBron, Giannis, Durant, Curry, etc. Yeah, I know, our own 2004 team was an exception.

Booker is not that guy. Not enough handle, playmaking, size, or athleticism. Yes, his midrange game on the move is elite, but that’s just not enough.

I think Booker is a phenomenal #2, and maybe an okay #1. Probably best as a 1a or 1b.

It's obviously not happening, but he's probably quite literally the perfect paring with Cade. Obviously projecting, but I also think Cade is more likely a 1a/1b type guy, and maybe not a true bonafide #1. So if you had a Cade/Booker backcourt, that's a championship backbone right there. And then just fill in the pieces.

[tmorgan]

If Booker is your franchise player, you aren’t winning anything. He’s very good, mind you, but he’s entirely containable with playoff-level defensive focus.

With very few exceptions, championships are won with a player that just cannot be stopped when they’re on. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Hakeem, Dirk, LeBron, Giannis, Durant, Curry, etc. Yeah, I know, our own 2004 team was an exception.

Booker is not that guy. Not enough handle, playmaking, size, or athleticism. Yes, his midrange game on the move is elite, but that’s just not enough.

I think Booker is a phenomenal #2, and maybe an okay #1. Probably best as a 1a or 1b.

It's obviously not happening, but he's probably quite literally the perfect paring with Cade. Obviously projecting, but I also think Cade is more likely a 1a/1b type guy, and maybe not a true bonafide #1. So if you had a Cade/Booker backcourt, that's a championship backbone right there. And then just fill in the pieces.

Sure, but that’s the magical nature of Cade more than anything. Anyone except a ball-dominant playmaker is a great fit with Cade.

As for Cade’s future status as a real #1 option or not, too soon to tell. If he gets there, he gets stronger, wiser, a better three, a better post game for mismatches, etc. i can see it happening, I can see it not happening.