Offense: ‘12 and 13 LeBron or ‘21 and ‘22 Jokic

1993Playoffs · Post #1 » by **1993Playoffs** » Wed May 11, 2022 4:04 am

Based solely on offense was Jokic better than LeBron’s back to back MVP years?

Peregrine01 · Post #2 » by **Peregrine01** » Wed May 11, 2022 4:26 am

The Nuggets this year ended up 6th in offense which is near unfathomable given their roster. The 2012 Heat was 8th. This might sound heretical but I think Jokic will peak higher than Bron as an offensive player.

TheGOATRises007 · Post #3 » by **TheGOATRises007** » Wed May 11, 2022 4:44 am

If it's offense only: I think Jokic has a good argument.

I don't think LeBron's offense peaked in Miami.

His 2nd Cleveland stint(especially 17-18) are clearly ahead of Miami LeBron as an offensive player for me.

I think you could argue for both.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #4 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Wed May 11, 2022 4:50 am

I think its ok to say Jokic here. LeBron's offensive role was dialed down those years though he was incredibly efficient.

falcolombardi · Post #5 » by **falcolombardi** » Wed May 11, 2022 4:53 am

it depends on the roster but i think jokic may be a bit better or at least more "bulletproof" offensively against the toughest defenses

if this was 14-18 bron i would go with him instead

falcolombardi · Post #6 » by **falcolombardi** » Wed May 11, 2022 4:57 am

Peregrine01 wrote:The Nuggets this year ended up 6th in offense which is near unfathomable given their roster. The 2012 Heat was 8th. This might sound heretical but I think Jokic will peak higher than Bron as an offensive player.

2012 was a unusually weak regular season offense for a lebron team but it was also one of his best postseason works (imo, may be his best run, really underated)

2012-2013 is kind of the transition where lebron and his teams started to consistently have huge improvenents in the playoffs while slowing down in the regular season (2013 was the lat ref season he went all in), aka the lecoast

falcolombardi · Post #7 » by **falcolombardi** » Wed May 11, 2022 4:58 am

Peregrine01 wrote:The Nuggets this year ended up 6th in offense which is near unfathomable given their roster. The 2012 Heat was 8th. This might sound heretical but I think Jokic will peak higher than Bron as an offensive player.

2012 was a unusually weak regular season offense for a lebron team but it was also one of his best postseason works (imo, may be his best run, really underated)

2012-2013 is kind of the transition where lebron and his teams started to consistently have huge improvenents in the playoffs while slowing down in the regular season (2013 was the lat ref season he went all in), aka the lecoast

2013 is a really incresible scoring season but his offensive resiliency and decision making had not yet made the final leap

70sFan · Post #8 » by **70sFan** » Wed May 11, 2022 6:31 am

I think people started underrating Miami LeBron offense. A lot of people talk about resiliency and his improvement on that matter, but don't forget that James faced far better defensive competition in 2012-14 than in 2016-18 overall and the only time he struggled was in 2013 Spurs. I can go further - small ball era makes everything easier for James offensively. During 2nd Cavs career, he was often the biggest player on the floor which gave him enormous advantage vs him playing against Duncans, Garnetts and Hibberts of the world.

LeBron was extremely resilient in 2012, it was one of the best postseason runs ever.

70sFan · Post #9 » by **70sFan** » Wed May 11, 2022 6:31 am

falcolombardi wrote:it depends on the roster but i think jokic may be a bit better or at least more "bulletproof" offensively against the toughest defenses

if this was 14-18 bron i would go with him instead

Given how James performed against Celtics and Pacers, I don't see Jokic as more proven vs toughest defenses.

letskissbro · Post #10 » by **letskissbro** » Wed May 11, 2022 9:34 am

I don't know if I agree with LeBron's offense peaking with the Cavs. His impact in Miami was just muted from having to share the floor with another ball dominant player who provided little value off the ball.

With Wade off the court from 2012-2014 LeBron's scoring shot up to 33.9 pts/75 on +9.4% TS in the regular season and 36.5 pts/75 on +7.8 rTS% in the playoffs while increasing his playmaking load as well. Keep in mind that this is pre-pace and space era. The Heat had great shooting for their time but it doesn't really compare to today's downsized league.

The Heat had a +14.05 relative offense with LeBron on and Wade off in the playoffs. That's the best offense of all time for a 3 year stretch.

No-more-rings · Post #11 » by **No-more-rings** » Wed May 11, 2022 12:02 pm

That's a tough one. I probably lean Jokic slightly here because I think 22 Jokic is the best of the 4, and 2013 is probably the worst given Lebron's struggles against the Spurs. Just offense to be clear.

No-more-rings · Post #12 » by **No-more-rings** » Wed May 11, 2022 12:12 pm

letskissbro wrote:I don't know if I agree with LeBron's offense peaking with the Cavs. His impact in Miami was just muted from having to share the floor with another ball dominant player who provided little value off the ball.

With Wade off the court from 2012-2014 LeBron's scoring shot up to 33.9 pts/75 on +9.4% TS in the regular season and 36.5 pts/75 on +7.8 rTS% in the playoffs while increasing his playmaking load as well. Keep in mind that this is pre-pace and space era. The Heat had great shooting for their time but it doesn't really compare to today's downsized league.

The Heat had a +14.05 relative offense with LeBron on and Wade off in the playoffs. That's the best offense of all time for a 3 year stretch.

Those numbers are all fine and dandy, but I think it's fair to say with those versions of Lebron at least prior to 2014 it was shown you can still limit his offense a decent amount with the right kind of defense. I couldn't see the 2013 Spurs or probably any team during that time for that matter doing what they did to the 17 and 18 versions of Lebron. Maybe it does have to do with increased space and pace as you say, but I'm not sure the difference between 2013 and 2017 is as big as the difference between 2017 and today for example. We'll never know for sure, whether Lebron improved during that time, or it's just league adjustments but i'm not willing to go strongly one way or another I don't think. I do think say 2009 is possibly a different animal altogether, but his mental game wasn't exactly top notch yet.

falcolombardi · Post #13 » by **falcolombardi** » Wed May 11, 2022 2:02 pm

70sFan wrote:I think people started underrating Miami LeBron offense. A lot of people talk about resiliency and his improvement on that matter, but don't forget that James faced far better defensive competition in 2012-14 than in 2016-18 overall and the only time he struggled was in 2013 Spurs. I can go further - small ball era makes everything easier for James offensively. During 2nd Cavs career, he was often the biggest player on the floor which gave him enormous advantage vs him playing against Duncans, Garnetts and Hibberts of the world.

LeBron was extremely resilient in 2012, it was one of the best postseason runs ever.

that is a extremely fair point about lebron facing the stronger defenses in miami

but i would note that i dont think lebron offense succes in cavs second stint is only about smallball, as everyone else in the league benefits from a smaller league, wing players specially

i dont want to completwly throw out the historical offensive success lebron got in cleveland second stintv