Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2020 - 2022
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
I think 2019 giannis is a DPOY type, 2020 giannis is a high tier DPOY type, and 2021 giannis was like decent in the RS and returned to DPOY level in the playoffs
Draymond I think was a DPOY type in the RS, and in the playoffs we’re talking about like, and like one of the absolute best playoff defenders of all time mostly cuz his the smartest defender of all time, so I’m probably going with him
I feel dray as the smartest defender ever is a controversial take sometimes, I feel in era the only one arguable is Russell imo
Draymond I think was a DPOY type in the RS, and in the playoffs we’re talking about like, and like one of the absolute best playoff defenders of all time mostly cuz his the smartest defender of all time, so I’m probably going with him
I feel dray as the smartest defender ever is a controversial take sometimes, I feel in era the only one arguable is Russell imo
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
By 1998, not sure Rodman was all that impactful on defense and was not all that impressive in 1997, either. I think Detroit Rodman would be a better comparative choice here.
Draymond in a tier by himself here.
Draymond in a tier by himself here.
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.
lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
homecourtloss wrote:By 1998, not sure Rodman was all that impactful on defense and was not all that impressive in 1997, either. I think Detroit Rodman would be a better comparative choice here.
Draymond in a tier by himself here.
How Draymond is viewed on defense is interesting to me, I feel he’s clearly a guy that’s more impactful defensively in the playoffs, and he’s already a DPOY type guy anyways
in the RS
This might sound crazy but I feel some of it might be that sometimes when talking about garnett today, (random as hell I know lol) people say “imagine if Draymond was 7ft” but if Draymond was 7ft he’d probably be by far the GOAT defender in any era lmao
Where giannis here I think fully depends on how you think playoff 2021 and 2022 giannis is vs 2019 and 2020 giannis
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
I think Rodman doesn't belong here, mostly because of 1997-98 seasons which were not on all-time level anymore. I wouldn't pick him over Dray or Giannis of peaks either, but that's more reasonable discussion.
I think I'd take Green overall. He was just such a savant on defensive end of the court. Giannis at his best is quite close due to significant physical advantages over Dray, but Green was just so consistent and so smart...
I think I'd take Green overall. He was just such a savant on defensive end of the court. Giannis at his best is quite close due to significant physical advantages over Dray, but Green was just so consistent and so smart...
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
MyUniBroDavis wrote:I feel dray as the smartest defender ever is a controversial take sometimes, I feel in era the only one arguable is Russell imo
I think Green has a case, but I wouldn't say only Russell is arguable. Positional comparisons are extremely hard on defense, but someone like Jason Kidd could be argued as well.
If we look at bigs, then Bobby Jones is another one I'd consider. Of course there are Garnett and Duncan in discussion, as always. I think someone like mid-90s Patrick Ewing might be underrated in that regard, because he lost a lot of his athleticism.
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
70sFan wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:I feel dray as the smartest defender ever is a controversial take sometimes, I feel in era the only one arguable is Russell imo
I think Green has a case, but I wouldn't say only Russell is arguable. Positional comparisons are extremely hard on defense, but someone like Jason Kidd could be argued as well.
If we look at bigs, then Bobby Jones is another one I'd consider. Of course there are Garnett and Duncan in discussion, as always. I think someone like mid-90s Patrick Ewing might be underrated in that regard, because he lost a lot of his athleticism.
Idk much about Bobby Jones, but I don’t really think Garnett or Duncan are particularly close in that regard if we’re talking purely about iq
This isn’t a knock on them, but dray, esp playoff dray, is the best defender of this current generation by a pretty substantial amount.
There’s a genuine argument I think that prime playoff dray is a top ten defender ever, I don’t think that’s too ridiculous, gobert’s gonna be one of the 10 center defenders in nba history when it’s all said and done and dray in the playoffs is utterly clear of him. There’s no reason drays impact should increase if it’s just that he’s versatile, teams not being able to play around him should mean that it stays the same vs other guys impacts decreasing, but it increases a lot
I would take Duncan and garnett for sure, but if we’re talking purely impact I wouldn’t be surprised if there were prime dray playoff seasons defensively that you take over some prime Duncan or garnett playoff seasons defensively.
But more than anything why I don’t really think it’s a comparison is like, comparing garnett and dray.
Like this sounds like a pretty dumb thing but I honestly think it points the idea nicely
Garnett is one of the best defensive physical specimens I think we’ve seen, garnett is a 7ft, 7ft6 wingspan dude that’s faster than dray period
Draymonds like a stocky wing with pretty long arms that’s pretty quick for his size
If you switch their builds Draymond becomes the best defender since Russell by a country mile while garnett probably becomes a solid defensive wing if anything
Of course, your iq is based on what situation you’re in, but I don’t think there’s a player in nba history that becomes worse on defense if they get their brain replaced with draymonds, and I Think that works the other way around as well
This isn’t hating on garnett or anything (that’s just the comparison with Draymond I think), he’s obviously one of the best defensive minds ever, but I really don’t think it’s remotely close, it’s like the Curry vs anyone else at shooting thing for me. Drays genuinely a guy that can play any role defensively, even center, with the measurements of harden and honestly really pedestrian athleticism
Like his lateral quickness is good for his size but it’s not even anything special as much as he knows where to go really well and can read guys crazy well, his vertical is literally lower than mine, and he’s not really particularly explosive at all.
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Idk much about Bobby Jones, but I don’t really think Garnett or Duncan are particularly close in that regard if we’re talking purely about iq
This isn’t a knock on them, but dray, esp playoff dray, is the best defender of this current generation by a pretty substantial amount.
There’s a genuine argument I think that prime playoff dray is a top ten defender ever, I don’t think that’s too ridiculous, gobert’s gonna be one of the 10 center defenders in nba history when it’s all said and done and dray in the playoffs is utterly clear of him. There’s no reason drays impact should increase if it’s just that he’s versatile, teams not being able to play around him should mean that it stays the same vs other guys impacts decreasing, but it increases a lot
Well, being the best of his generation is certainly impressive, but we should always take into account what competition he faced. Gobert is great, all-time great in fact, but I don't think he's the defensive GOAT candidate.
But more than anything why I don’t really think it’s a comparison is like, comparing garnett and dray.
Like this sounds like a pretty dumb thing but I honestly think it points the idea nicely
Garnett is one of the best defensive physical specimens I think we’ve seen, garnett is a 7ft, 7ft6 wingspan dude that’s faster than dray period
Draymonds like a stocky wing with pretty long arms that’s pretty quick for his size
If you switch their builds Draymond becomes the best defender since Russell by a country mile while garnett probably becomes a solid defensive wing if anything
Of course, your iq is based on what situation you’re in, but I don’t think there’s a player in nba history that becomes worse on defense if they get their brain replaced with draymonds, and I Think that works the other way around as well
This isn’t hating on garnett or anything (that’s just the comparison with Draymond I think), he’s obviously one of the best defensive minds ever, but I really don’t think it’s remotely close, it’s like the Curry vs anyone else at shooting thing for me. Drays genuinely a guy that can play any role defensively, even center, with the measurements of harden and honestly really pedestrian athleticism
Like his lateral quickness is good for his size but it’s not even anything special as much as he knows where to go really well and can read guys crazy well, his vertical is literally lower than mine, and he’s not really particularly explosive at all.
Although it's not unreasonable to come with such conclusions based on the facts you mentioned, I would be hesitant of going too far with this reasoning. Do you consider LeBron one of the smartest players ever? Most likely, but based on what you said, I could say that someone like James Harden would be the GOAT with James body, as he doesn't have the quarter of LeBron's physical talent.
Does it mean that Harden is a smarter player than James? I don't agree with such conclusion. I think it's a trap a lot of people go into. By this logic, shouldn't we just praise the least athletic players ever for their BBIQ, because they have less to work with? Wouldn't that mean that someone like 2014 Boris Diaw is smarter basketball player than LeBron ever was?
We have seen 40 years old Duncan with bum knees and no movement still being one of the best defenders in the league on per minute basis in 2016, so after the shooting revolution started. Garnett had some of his best defensive seasons when he lost most of his athleticism. They worked just as well without their athletic gifts.
BTW, by this logic Russell certainly doesn't belong to this discussion either. He's arguably the most athletic player ever with perfect body type and size to maximize his defensive impact.
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
MyUniBroDavis wrote:This might sound crazy but I feel some of it might be that sometimes when talking about garnett today, (random as hell I know lol) people say “imagine if Draymond was 7ft” but if Draymond was 7ft he’d probably be by far the GOAT defender in any era lmao
Where giannis here I think fully depends on how you think playoff 2021 and 2022 giannis is vs 2019 and 2020 giannis
And Garnett with Draymond load is by far the GOAT defender in any era (Russell?), don't see the point.
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
Draymond easily
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
70sFan wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:Idk much about Bobby Jones, but I don’t really think Garnett or Duncan are particularly close in that regard if we’re talking purely about iq
This isn’t a knock on them, but dray, esp playoff dray, is the best defender of this current generation by a pretty substantial amount.
There’s a genuine argument I think that prime playoff dray is a top ten defender ever, I don’t think that’s too ridiculous, gobert’s gonna be one of the 10 center defenders in nba history when it’s all said and done and dray in the playoffs is utterly clear of him. There’s no reason drays impact should increase if it’s just that he’s versatile, teams not being able to play around him should mean that it stays the same vs other guys impacts decreasing, but it increases a lot
Well, being the best of his generation is certainly impressive, but we should always take into account what competition he faced. Gobert is great, all-time great in fact, but I don't think he's the defensive GOAT candidate.But more than anything why I don’t really think it’s a comparison is like, comparing garnett and dray.
Like this sounds like a pretty dumb thing but I honestly think it points the idea nicely
Garnett is one of the best defensive physical specimens I think we’ve seen, garnett is a 7ft, 7ft6 wingspan dude that’s faster than dray period
Draymonds like a stocky wing with pretty long arms that’s pretty quick for his size
If you switch their builds Draymond becomes the best defender since Russell by a country mile while garnett probably becomes a solid defensive wing if anything
Of course, your iq is based on what situation you’re in, but I don’t think there’s a player in nba history that becomes worse on defense if they get their brain replaced with draymonds, and I Think that works the other way around as well
This isn’t hating on garnett or anything (that’s just the comparison with Draymond I think), he’s obviously one of the best defensive minds ever, but I really don’t think it’s remotely close, it’s like the Curry vs anyone else at shooting thing for me. Drays genuinely a guy that can play any role defensively, even center, with the measurements of harden and honestly really pedestrian athleticism
Like his lateral quickness is good for his size but it’s not even anything special as much as he knows where to go really well and can read guys crazy well, his vertical is literally lower than mine, and he’s not really particularly explosive at all.
Although it's not unreasonable to come with such conclusions based on the facts you mentioned, I would be hesitant of going too far with this reasoning. Do you consider LeBron one of the smartest players ever? Most likely, but based on what you said, I could say that someone like James Harden would be the GOAT with James body, as he doesn't have the quarter of LeBron's physical talent.
Does it mean that Harden is a smarter player than James? I don't agree with such conclusion. I think it's a trap a lot of people go into. By this logic, shouldn't we just praise the least athletic players ever for their BBIQ, because they have less to work with? Wouldn't that mean that someone like 2014 Boris Diaw is smarter basketball player than LeBron ever was?
We have seen 40 years old Duncan with bum knees and no movement still being one of the best defenders in the league on per minute basis in 2016, so after the shooting revolution started. Garnett had some of his best defensive seasons when he lost most of his athleticism. They worked just as well without their athletic gifts.
BTW, by this logic Russell certainly doesn't belong to this discussion either. He's arguably the most athletic player ever with perfect body type and size to maximize his defensive impact.
I agree on your first point, at the same time the fact that (playoff) Draymond is solidly better than an all time great defender like gobert probably means he’s not like tiers and tiers behind like Diaw is to lebron
On your second point, I think that’s a tad bit unfair, but I see what you’re saying.
On your second point, I feel that’s a tad bit unfair. I’m the king of Harden haters but it’s not as if that’s the only difference between them though, hardens the best ball handling wing ever, which fuels his isolation game as being unstoppable, far better at shooting and drawing fouls, etc etc
Like if you gave Harden lebrons athleticism I think he absolutely clears lebron on offense, for sure. If you replace lebrons brain with Harden, he probably gets worse on offense, and the other way around is probably a mild improvement if anything
But like, defense is a skill but you could classify skill as a iq I think.
But like the thing is, when it comes to defence, given both guys are fundamentally solid, the gap between the lab made specimen that is garnett and Draymond isn’t something that your gonna make up for by like having good footwork.
Like, if you want to change it to Draymond having the best combination of skill + iq sure but iq almost certainly dominates that, but I don’t think that changes that
Like the issue here is 2014 Boris diaw isn’t remotely comparable to lebron or an all time offensive player.
Peak playoff draymond on defense is pretty arguably comparable to those guys on defense. I mean, by single year RAPM standard deviations his 2017 season edges out Garnett’s 2008 season, and his 2016 season outdoes any Duncan season or non Boston garnett season as well, while his 2015 season if I recall would be Duncan’s second best too, and that doesn’t account for his playoff D specifically, where by all accounts there’s a huge jump
Like if you had a 6ft2 dude that was average athletically in every category and had the same skill level as lebron in every category but had the same offensive impact and ability, his iq being the only difference, then yeah that dudes probably smarter as a basketball player
Like the only edge Draymond has over most bulky 6ft5 guys in the nba is that he’s smarter than them, he’s so much smarter than them that he’s the best defender of his generation with defensive impact data that put him in the discussion of most impactful defensive prime since 2001.
Like if we compare bron and harden, there are fully areas where harden is superior at, if we compare garnett and Draymond, the only thing feasible as an advantage dray is is that dray is smarter.
More than that, if you separate defense into three things
Skill + iq + athleticism
The fact that they’re comparable defenders while garnett and really any all time great defender on this scale has a monumental advantage in athleticism, mean that either Draymond is a more skilled defender, which like I don’t think makes much sense, or his iq is far higher.
The shooting revolution started but the exploiting of plodding bigs was something took a bit longer, and rim protectors tend to still be the best defenders in the regular season anyway.
Also I mean I have Russell up here from hype mostly lol
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
Jaivl wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:This might sound crazy but I feel some of it might be that sometimes when talking about garnett today, (random as hell I know lol) people say “imagine if Draymond was 7ft” but if Draymond was 7ft he’d probably be by far the GOAT defender in any era lmao
Where giannis here I think fully depends on how you think playoff 2021 and 2022 giannis is vs 2019 and 2020 giannis
And Garnett with Draymond load is by far the GOAT defender in any era (Russell?), don't see the point.
Dawg are you comparing having a smaller load on offense to growing 6 inches taller, increasing your wingspan by 6 inches, and also becoming faster and jumping higher lmao
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Jaivl wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:This might sound crazy but I feel some of it might be that sometimes when talking about garnett today, (random as hell I know lol) people say “imagine if Draymond was 7ft” but if Draymond was 7ft he’d probably be by far the GOAT defender in any era lmao
Where giannis here I think fully depends on how you think playoff 2021 and 2022 giannis is vs 2019 and 2020 giannis
And Garnett with Draymond load is by far the GOAT defender in any era (Russell?), don't see the point.
Dawg are you comparing having a smaller load on offense to growing 6 inches taller, increasing your wingspan by 6 inches, and also becoming faster and jumping higher lmao
Yup. And the end result probably being about the same is not an advantage to Green, but the opposite. He doesn't do more with less, he does less with less.
Quoting the Engelmann RAPMs you cited on the Giannis thread, reduced-role KG leads the league every single year until 2015 (probably overrating his last years due to priors), 2016 Dray being the only year close in z-score, but KG's 2013 still being the most outlier-ish year on record (08, 09, 13 KG, 16 Dray). Not particularly sure that z-scores aren't as misleading as raw comparisons, I'm only really comfortable with relative ranks, but even then.
Also beats Dray on the new 97-22 dataset, which includes all his years as an offensive focal point. There's certainly something to be said for Dray being slightly underrated by the numbers cause of him ramping it up on the playoffs (he's #9 at 4.9, and I'd wager he probably should be around -6 on the Gobert/Deke/KG range), but still.
PS: Oh, also, OP is Green, not even close. As shown by these discussions, really, Green plays on the big boys league.
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
MyUniBroDavis wrote:70sFan wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:Idk much about Bobby Jones, but I don’t really think Garnett or Duncan are particularly close in that regard if we’re talking purely about iq
This isn’t a knock on them, but dray, esp playoff dray, is the best defender of this current generation by a pretty substantial amount.
There’s a genuine argument I think that prime playoff dray is a top ten defender ever, I don’t think that’s too ridiculous, gobert’s gonna be one of the 10 center defenders in nba history when it’s all said and done and dray in the playoffs is utterly clear of him. There’s no reason drays impact should increase if it’s just that he’s versatile, teams not being able to play around him should mean that it stays the same vs other guys impacts decreasing, but it increases a lot
Well, being the best of his generation is certainly impressive, but we should always take into account what competition he faced. Gobert is great, all-time great in fact, but I don't think he's the defensive GOAT candidate.But more than anything why I don’t really think it’s a comparison is like, comparing garnett and dray.
Like this sounds like a pretty dumb thing but I honestly think it points the idea nicely
Garnett is one of the best defensive physical specimens I think we’ve seen, garnett is a 7ft, 7ft6 wingspan dude that’s faster than dray period
Draymonds like a stocky wing with pretty long arms that’s pretty quick for his size
If you switch their builds Draymond becomes the best defender since Russell by a country mile while garnett probably becomes a solid defensive wing if anything
Of course, your iq is based on what situation you’re in, but I don’t think there’s a player in nba history that becomes worse on defense if they get their brain replaced with draymonds, and I Think that works the other way around as well
This isn’t hating on garnett or anything (that’s just the comparison with Draymond I think), he’s obviously one of the best defensive minds ever, but I really don’t think it’s remotely close, it’s like the Curry vs anyone else at shooting thing for me. Drays genuinely a guy that can play any role defensively, even center, with the measurements of harden and honestly really pedestrian athleticism
Like his lateral quickness is good for his size but it’s not even anything special as much as he knows where to go really well and can read guys crazy well, his vertical is literally lower than mine, and he’s not really particularly explosive at all.
Although it's not unreasonable to come with such conclusions based on the facts you mentioned, I would be hesitant of going too far with this reasoning. Do you consider LeBron one of the smartest players ever? Most likely, but based on what you said, I could say that someone like James Harden would be the GOAT with James body, as he doesn't have the quarter of LeBron's physical talent.
Does it mean that Harden is a smarter player than James? I don't agree with such conclusion. I think it's a trap a lot of people go into. By this logic, shouldn't we just praise the least athletic players ever for their BBIQ, because they have less to work with? Wouldn't that mean that someone like 2014 Boris Diaw is smarter basketball player than LeBron ever was?
We have seen 40 years old Duncan with bum knees and no movement still being one of the best defenders in the league on per minute basis in 2016, so after the shooting revolution started. Garnett had some of his best defensive seasons when he lost most of his athleticism. They worked just as well without their athletic gifts.
BTW, by this logic Russell certainly doesn't belong to this discussion either. He's arguably the most athletic player ever with perfect body type and size to maximize his defensive impact.
I agree on your first point, at the same time the fact that (playoff) Draymond is solidly better than an all time great defender like gobert probably means he’s not like tiers and tiers behind like Diaw is to lebron
On your second point, I think that’s a tad bit unfair, but I see what you’re saying.
On your second point, I feel that’s a tad bit unfair. I’m the king of Harden haters but it’s not as if that’s the only difference between them though, hardens the best ball handling wing ever, which fuels his isolation game as being unstoppable, far better at shooting and drawing fouls, etc etc
Like if you gave Harden lebrons athleticism I think he absolutely clears lebron on offense, for sure. If you replace lebrons brain with Harden, he probably gets worse on offense, and the other way around is probably a mild improvement if anything
But like, defense is a skill but you could classify skill as a iq I think.
But like the thing is, when it comes to defence, given both guys are fundamentally solid, the gap between the lab made specimen that is garnett and Draymond isn’t something that your gonna make up for by like having good footwork.
Like, if you want to change it to Draymond having the best combination of skill + iq sure but iq almost certainly dominates that, but I don’t think that changes that
Like the issue here is 2014 Boris diaw isn’t remotely comparable to lebron or an all time offensive player.
Peak playoff draymond on defense is pretty arguably comparable to those guys on defense. I mean, by single year RAPM standard deviations his 2017 season edges out Garnett’s 2008 season, and his 2016 season outdoes any Duncan season or non Boston garnett season as well, while his 2015 season if I recall would be Duncan’s second best too, and that doesn’t account for his playoff D specifically, where by all accounts there’s a huge jump
Like if you had a 6ft2 dude that was average athletically in every category and had the same skill level as lebron in every category but had the same offensive impact and ability, his iq being the only difference, then yeah that dudes probably smarter as a basketball player
Like the only edge Draymond has over most bulky 6ft5 guys in the nba is that he’s smarter than them, he’s so much smarter than them that he’s the best defender of his generation with defensive impact data that put him in the discussion of most impactful defensive prime since 2001.
Like if we compare bron and harden, there are fully areas where harden is superior at, if we compare garnett and Draymond, the only thing feasible as an advantage dray is is that dray is smarter.
More than that, if you separate defense into three things
Skill + iq + athleticism
The fact that they’re comparable defenders while garnett and really any all time great defender on this scale has a monumental advantage in athleticism, mean that either Draymond is a more skilled defender, which like I don’t think makes much sense, or his iq is far higher.
The shooting revolution started but the exploiting of plodding bigs was something took a bit longer, and rim protectors tend to still be the best defenders in the regular season anyway.
Also I mean I have Russell up here from hype mostly lol
I think you vastly underestimate Draymond's athleticism and physical profile if you think that all that separates him from the average 6'5 forward is his mind. For once, Draymond had absurd wingspan. It's not comparable to KG or Russell, but it's just massive. Secondly, the guy had one of the quickest hands I have ever seen, along with insane hand-eye coordination. He moves like a guard laterally and he is strong enough to resist against most bigger guys. I mean, the only reason why you don't call him an elite athlete is because he doesn't jump high, but it's almost never important for top defenders.
It's also not true that the only advantage Draymond has over KG is his smarts. He's bulkier, studier and tougher to move inside. He has quicker hands than KG. Lateral quickness is at least debatable.
Again, I don't have any issue with calling Green the smartest defender ever. He's certianly in this discussion and I don't think there are many elite defenders who could compete with him. I don't think we should give him the edge over someone like Duncan simply because he's smaller.
Why don't you take Jason Kidd into account? Or someone like John Stockton? These guys were absolute monsters at reading the game, but they didn't have physical profile to dominate like Draymond does.
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
Jaivl wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:Jaivl wrote:And Garnett with Draymond load is by far the GOAT defender in any era (Russell?), don't see the point.
Dawg are you comparing having a smaller load on offense to growing 6 inches taller, increasing your wingspan by 6 inches, and also becoming faster and jumping higher lmao
Yup. And the end result probably being about the same is not an advantage to Green, but the opposite. He doesn't do more with less, he does less with less.
Quoting the Engelmann RAPMs you cited on the Giannis thread, reduced-role KG leads the league every single year until 2015 (probably overrating his last years due to priors), 2016 Dray being the only year close in z-score, but KG's 2013 still being the most outlier-ish year on record (08, 09, 13 KG, 16 Dray). Not particularly sure that z-scores aren't as misleading as raw comparisons, I'm only really comfortable with relative ranks, but even then.
Also beats Dray on the new 97-22 dataset, which includes all his years as an offensive focal point. There's certainly something to be said for Dray being slightly underrated by the numbers cause of him ramping it up on the playoffs (he's #9 at 4.9, and I'd wager he probably should be around -6 on the Gobert/Deke/KG range), but still.
PS: Oh, also, OP is Green, not even close. As shown by these discussions, really, Green plays on the big boys league.
I was using npi rapm, since the pi uses three year priors I think
What’s the 97-22 dataset? The only one I saw when I googled was the tableau one, which only has their overall rapm (altho drays postseason rapm is second behind bron)
Altho it’s in 5 year peaks
Edit: found it, In any case, draymonds being -4.9 vs KGs being -5.8 isn’t particularly much to me lol, esp with Gobert being the best on here and I think all of us know playoff draymond clears absolutely. He’s even higher than Duncan on this too
I ain’t gonna lie lol I’d much rather go from being decently quick stocky sf to one of the greatest defensive physical specimens in nba history personally lmao, I don’t that that’s remotely a comparison
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
70sFan wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:70sFan wrote:Well, being the best of his generation is certainly impressive, but we should always take into account what competition he faced. Gobert is great, all-time great in fact, but I don't think he's the defensive GOAT candidate.
Although it's not unreasonable to come with such conclusions based on the facts you mentioned, I would be hesitant of going too far with this reasoning. Do you consider LeBron one of the smartest players ever? Most likely, but based on what you said, I could say that someone like James Harden would be the GOAT with James body, as he doesn't have the quarter of LeBron's physical talent.
Does it mean that Harden is a smarter player than James? I don't agree with such conclusion. I think it's a trap a lot of people go into. By this logic, shouldn't we just praise the least athletic players ever for their BBIQ, because they have less to work with? Wouldn't that mean that someone like 2014 Boris Diaw is smarter basketball player than LeBron ever was?
We have seen 40 years old Duncan with bum knees and no movement still being one of the best defenders in the league on per minute basis in 2016, so after the shooting revolution started. Garnett had some of his best defensive seasons when he lost most of his athleticism. They worked just as well without their athletic gifts.
BTW, by this logic Russell certainly doesn't belong to this discussion either. He's arguably the most athletic player ever with perfect body type and size to maximize his defensive impact.
I agree on your first point, at the same time the fact that (playoff) Draymond is solidly better than an all time great defender like gobert probably means he’s not like tiers and tiers behind like Diaw is to lebron
On your second point, I think that’s a tad bit unfair, but I see what you’re saying.
On your second point, I feel that’s a tad bit unfair. I’m the king of Harden haters but it’s not as if that’s the only difference between them though, hardens the best ball handling wing ever, which fuels his isolation game as being unstoppable, far better at shooting and drawing fouls, etc etc
Like if you gave Harden lebrons athleticism I think he absolutely clears lebron on offense, for sure. If you replace lebrons brain with Harden, he probably gets worse on offense, and the other way around is probably a mild improvement if anything
But like, defense is a skill but you could classify skill as a iq I think.
But like the thing is, when it comes to defence, given both guys are fundamentally solid, the gap between the lab made specimen that is garnett and Draymond isn’t something that your gonna make up for by like having good footwork.
Like, if you want to change it to Draymond having the best combination of skill + iq sure but iq almost certainly dominates that, but I don’t think that changes that
Like the issue here is 2014 Boris diaw isn’t remotely comparable to lebron or an all time offensive player.
Peak playoff draymond on defense is pretty arguably comparable to those guys on defense. I mean, by single year RAPM standard deviations his 2017 season edges out Garnett’s 2008 season, and his 2016 season outdoes any Duncan season or non Boston garnett season as well, while his 2015 season if I recall would be Duncan’s second best too, and that doesn’t account for his playoff D specifically, where by all accounts there’s a huge jump
Like if you had a 6ft2 dude that was average athletically in every category and had the same skill level as lebron in every category but had the same offensive impact and ability, his iq being the only difference, then yeah that dudes probably smarter as a basketball player
Like the only edge Draymond has over most bulky 6ft5 guys in the nba is that he’s smarter than them, he’s so much smarter than them that he’s the best defender of his generation with defensive impact data that put him in the discussion of most impactful defensive prime since 2001.
Like if we compare bron and harden, there are fully areas where harden is superior at, if we compare garnett and Draymond, the only thing feasible as an advantage dray is is that dray is smarter.
More than that, if you separate defense into three things
Skill + iq + athleticism
The fact that they’re comparable defenders while garnett and really any all time great defender on this scale has a monumental advantage in athleticism, mean that either Draymond is a more skilled defender, which like I don’t think makes much sense, or his iq is far higher.
The shooting revolution started but the exploiting of plodding bigs was something took a bit longer, and rim protectors tend to still be the best defenders in the regular season anyway.
Also I mean I have Russell up here from hype mostly lol
I think you vastly underestimate Draymond's athleticism and physical profile if you think that all that separates him from the average 6'5 forward is his mind. For once, Draymond had absurd wingspan. It's not comparable to KG or Russell, but it's just massive. Secondly, the guy had one of the quickest hands I have ever seen, along with insane hand-eye coordination. He moves like a guard laterally and he is strong enough to resist against most bigger guys. I mean, the only reason why you don't call him an elite athlete is because he doesn't jump high, but it's almost never important for top defenders.
It's also not true that the only advantage Draymond has over KG is his smarts. He's bulkier, studier and tougher to move inside. He has quicker hands than KG. Lateral quickness is at least debatable.
Again, I don't have any issue with calling Green the smartest defender ever. He's certianly in this discussion and I don't think there are many elite defenders who could compete with him. I don't think we should give him the edge over someone like Duncan simply because he's smaller.
Why don't you take Jason Kidd into account? Or someone like John Stockton? These guys were absolute monsters at reading the game, but they didn't have physical profile to dominate like Draymond does.
My recollection was drays lane agility time was like slightly above average for a SF, and having quick hands ties into iq a lot as well. Having quick hands isn’t as much as his hands literally move faster than other people he can just read it well
Drays standing reach is 8ft9, the average drafted small forward standing reach is 8ft8.25, his barefoot height is -0.25 and his wingspan is +2 inches vs the average
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
MyUniBroDavis wrote:My recollection was drays lane agility time was like slightly above average for a SF, and having quick hands ties into iq a lot as well. Having quick hands isn’t as much as his hands literally move faster than other people he can just read it well
Come on, without top tier hand-eye coordination and reflex, your hands on defense are useless - even when you anticipate plays right.
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
70sFan wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:My recollection was drays lane agility time was like slightly above average for a SF, and having quick hands ties into iq a lot as well. Having quick hands isn’t as much as his hands literally move faster than other people he can just read it well
Come on, without top tier hand-eye coordination and reflex, your hands on defense are useless - even when you anticipate plays right.
I’d def say it’s more knowing what to do than his hands going so fast they create afterimages or anything, it’s definately more anticipation and awareness than reflexes
I mean at the end of the day yeah he has solid measurements for a forward but it’s nothing astonishing,
he’s relatively quick and holds his ground really well for his size
He’s not like astonishingly fast for his size or anything he’s just at the right place at the right time, he’s closer to above average than anything special as an athlete if we’re talking his physical attributes
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
MyUniBroDavis wrote:70sFan wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:My recollection was drays lane agility time was like slightly above average for a SF, and having quick hands ties into iq a lot as well. Having quick hands isn’t as much as his hands literally move faster than other people he can just read it well
Come on, without top tier hand-eye coordination and reflex, your hands on defense are useless - even when you anticipate plays right.
I’d def say it’s more knowing what to do than his hands going so fast they create afterimages or anything, it’s definately more anticipation and awareness than reflexes
I mean at the end of the day yeah he has solid measurements for a forward but it’s nothing astonishing,
he’s relatively quick and holds his ground really well for his size
He’s not like astonishingly fast for his size or anything he’s just at the right place at the right time, he’s closer to above average than anything special as an athlete if we’re talking his physical attributes
What makes it different from post-2004 Duncan though? Duncan was bigger, but he also was slower after injuries.
Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
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Re: Better Defensively: Dennis Rodman 96/97/98, Draymond 2015-2017. or Giannis 2019-2022
70sFan wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:70sFan wrote:Come on, without top tier hand-eye coordination and reflex, your hands on defense are useless - even when you anticipate plays right.
I’d def say it’s more knowing what to do than his hands going so fast they create afterimages or anything, it’s definately more anticipation and awareness than reflexes
I mean at the end of the day yeah he has solid measurements for a forward but it’s nothing astonishing,
he’s relatively quick and holds his ground really well for his size
He’s not like astonishingly fast for his size or anything he’s just at the right place at the right time, he’s closer to above average than anything special as an athlete if we’re talking his physical attributes
What makes it different from post-2004 Duncan though? Duncan was bigger, but he also was slower after injuries.
I mean, I think a typical sized power forward/center playing the power forward/center spot is usually better than a typical sized small forward playing the power forward/center spot lol, bigger is kinda the key thing here lol
I think my confusion is, in the playoffs where iq is more important at least nowadays is where dray shines, and in that regard his defensive impact is arguably on the same tier as the Garnett’s and timmys of the world at least in their overall primes. (His playoff drapm is higher than both of theirs too right?)
I just can’t believe we’re really comparing having a lesser load on offense to going from a guy whose physical attributes were listed as a con coming out of college to a guy whose physical attributes are enough to warrant a lottery pick pick alone on defense