Nick Wright: LeBron vs Jordan

[uberhikari]

On the What's Right? podcast, Nick was talking about his frustration at the lack of fanfare surrounding LeBron breaking the all-time scoring record. He couldn't help himself and went on a mini-rant with regard to the GOAT debate.

I thought the rant was pretty funny.

[GSWFan1994]

I'm a simple man... I see Nick Wright, I instantly disagree.

[Kingdibs19]

InB4 Nick wrong comments.

Nicks wright is right tbh.

[Vox Populi]

On the What's Right? podcast, Nick was talking about his frustration at the lack of fanfare surrounding LeBron breaking the all-time scoring record. He couldn't help himself and went on a mini-rant with regard to the GOAT debate.

I thought the rant was pretty funny.

Nick Wrong sounds like he is going through one of these moments.

He is stuck in the 2nd stage of grief: denial, and even appears at 3:35 into this video lol.

Watch on YouTube

[infinite11285]

Fanboy mentality ruined the ability to appreciate greatness.

[Kobe187]

An entire hall of fame career still separates LeBron & Jordan.

2 Rings
2 FMVPs
1 DPOY
1 Regular Season MVP
4 All-Defensive First Teams
9 Scoring Titles
3 Steals Titles
2 Slam Dunk Titles

The gap is just too big to overcome.

[Ballerhogger]

He makes some good points history down the road won’t look at MJ championships the same . General GOAT aspects . All time scorer , all time etc is what history first points to . It’s true MJ finals vs team . Played old lakers team . Played one good but not great blazers . Played good Sonics team. The jazz teams were probably MJ biggest team he beat . 2 HOF great players.
Lebron has beaten Kevin Durant , Westbrook (when he was very good to great) Curry in biggest in the biggest finals comeback ever. Kawhi.

[TheLand13]

An entire hall of fame career still separates LeBron & Jordan.

2 Rings
2 FMVPs
1 DPOY
1 Regular Season MVP
4 All-Defensive First Teams
9 Scoring Titles
3 Steals Titles
1 Slam Dunk Title

The gap is just too big to overcome.

This is an interesting argument. A very flawed one, but it does showcase just how far ahead Jordan is compared to LeBron in terms of accolades. I never realized the gap was this big.

[Vox Populi]

An entire hall of fame career still separates LeBron & Jordan.

2 Rings
2 FMVPs
1 DPOY
1 Regular Season MVP
4 All-Defensive First Teams
9 Scoring Titles
3 Steals Titles
1 Slam Dunk Title

The gap is just too big to overcome.

This is an interesting argument. A very flawed one, but it does showcase just how far ahead Jordan is compared to LeBron in terms of accolades. I never realized the gap was this big.

The ironic thing is there are some people on the General Board who acknowledge this sort of gap when it comes to Giannis case for Top 10. They will say he has a lot to catch up to guys like Duncan, KG or Dirk, even though Giannis has already peaked higher than them. It is a fair point. Happened just yesterday in the "Title Winning PFs" thread. Then the same people go against what they just said to put Lebron over MJ, even though a similar gap exists between MJ and Lebron (which they probably do not realize), and MJ peaked higher than Lebron too.

I just do not know how to bridge this gap between their arguments for them.

[HeartBreakKid]

An entire hall of fame career still separates LeBron & Jordan.

2 Rings
2 FMVPs
1 DPOY
1 Regular Season MVP
4 All-Defensive First Teams
9 Scoring Titles
3 Steals Titles
1 Slam Dunk Title

The gap is just too big to overcome.

This is an interesting argument. A very flawed one, but it does showcase just how far ahead Jordan is compared to LeBron in terms of accolades. I never realized the gap was this big.

The ironic thing is there are some guys on the General Board who acknowledge this sort of gap when it comes to Giannis case for Top 10. They will say he has a lot to catch up to guys like Duncan, KG or Dirk. Even though Giannis has already peaked higher than them. Then they will go against what they just said to put Lebron over MJ, even though a similar gap exists between MJ and Lebron, and MJ peaked higher than Lebron too.

I just do not know how to bridge this gap between their arguments for them.

One thing that I see in common is that Giannis has higher PPG than Duncan,Garnett and Nowitzki. Jordan has higher PPG than MJ.

The way you make it seems like they peaked so much higher and it's not even a question while coincidentally sharing that trait for all four comparisons kind of shows a bit of a bias there.

FYI, I disagree with literally everything you said. I don't think Jordan peaked higher than James and I don't think Giannis peaked higher than any of those players you listed. I don't even think it is close between Giannis and Duncan.

You're trying to list an inconsistency that doesn't really exist.


Just because Lebron James has incredible longevity doesn't mean that it is the reason why he is better. The overwhelming majority of people who think LBJ is better than Jordan thinks he is actually better than him on the court. Longevity is a talking point in this sub section not the overall basketball community. Players with incredible longevity are often stereotyped to have lesser peaks than those with modest longevity or weak longevity.

[AEnigma]

Oh, love the accolade counting that suddenly stops as soon as someone asks about Russell having nearly double Jordan’s titles. Or about Kareem having an extra MVP and four all-NBA spots (tell me, what is the ratio of steals titles to block titles?).

Lebron will have at least eight more all-NBA (at least three first-team) and counting, five more all-star nods and counting, probably around one more full MVP shares by the time he is done, 6K more points and counting, 4K more rebounds and counting, 5K more assists and counting, 12K more minutes and counting… all while playing in a better era against better opponents. So what exactly is the point here about career separation?

[HeartBreakKid]

Also, I just read this thread and did we seriously list the slam dunk contest as an accolade?

[TheLand13]

An entire hall of fame career still separates LeBron & Jordan.

2 Rings
2 FMVPs
1 DPOY
1 Regular Season MVP
4 All-Defensive First Teams
9 Scoring Titles
3 Steals Titles
1 Slam Dunk Title

The gap is just too big to overcome.

This is an interesting argument. A very flawed one, but it does showcase just how far ahead Jordan is compared to LeBron in terms of accolades. I never realized the gap was this big.

The ironic thing is there are some guys who will acknowledge this kind of gap when it comes to Giannis case for Top 10. They will say he has a lot to catch up to guys like Duncan, even though Giannis has already peaked higher than Duncan. Then they will go against what they just said to put Lebron over MJ, even though a similar gap exists between MJ and Lebron, and MJ peaked higher than Lebron too.

I just do not know how to bridge the gap for them.

I’ve always felt that the “you need this many accolades to be top ten all time” was just an incredibly silly argument. It’s both lazy and contradictory. Every career is different and each player reaches their accomplishments under different circumstances.

[TheLand13]

This is an interesting argument. A very flawed one, but it does showcase just how far ahead Jordan is compared to LeBron in terms of accolades. I never realized the gap was this big.

The ironic thing is there are some guys on the General Board who acknowledge this sort of gap when it comes to Giannis case for Top 10. They will say he has a lot to catch up to guys like Duncan, KG or Dirk. Even though Giannis has already peaked higher than them. Then they will go against what they just said to put Lebron over MJ, even though a similar gap exists between MJ and Lebron, and MJ peaked higher than Lebron too.

I just do not know how to bridge this gap between their arguments for them.

One thing that I see in common is that Giannis has higher PPG than Duncan,Garnett and Nowitzki. Jordan has higher PPG than MJ.

The way you make it seems like they peaked so much higher and it's not even a question while coincidentally sharing that trait for all four comparisons kind of shows a bit of a bias there.

FYI, I disagree with literally everything you said. I don't think Jordan peaked higher than James and I don't think Giannis peaked higher than any of those players you listed. I don't even think it is close between Giannis and Duncan.

You're trying to list an inconsistency that doesn't really exist.


Just because Lebron James has incredible longevity doesn't mean that it is the reason why he is better. The overwhelming majority of people who think LBJ is better than Jordan thinks he is actually better than him on the court. Longevity is a talking point in this sub section not the overall basketball community. Players with incredible longevity are often stereotyped to have lesser peaks than those with modest longevity or weak longevity.

I actually think MJ was still the better player, but I will say this: 2013 LeBron was better than any version of Jordan. And I’ll take it one step further: 2013 LeBron is better than any version of any player in the history of basketball. There was never anyone as dominant as LeBron was that season. I’ve never seen someone completely manhandle professional basketball players on a nightly basis, and look bored while doing it. It always felt like he was giving minimal effort, and yet he was having one of the greatest seasons of all time.

[Gooner]

Oh, love the accolade counting that suddenly stops as soon as someone asks about Russell having nearly double Jordan’s titles. Or about Kareem having an extra MVP and four all-NBA spots (tell me, what is the ratio of steals titles to block titles?).

Lebron will have at least eight more all-NBA (at least three first-team) and counting, five more all-star nods and counting, probably around one more full MVP shares by the time he is done, 6K more points and counting, 4K more rebounds and counting, 5K more assists and counting, 12K more minutes and counting… all while playing in a better era against better opponents. So what exactly is the point here about career separation?

LeBron is quantity, MJ is quality. This is definitely not a better era. This is a friendly scrimmage era that drives the fans away from basketball.

[OhayoKD]

This is an interesting argument. A very flawed one, but it does showcase just how far ahead Jordan is compared to LeBron in terms of accolades. I never realized the gap was this big.

The ironic thing is there are some guys who will acknowledge this kind of gap when it comes to Giannis case for Top 10. They will say he has a lot to catch up to guys like Duncan, even though Giannis has already peaked higher than Duncan. Then they will go against what they just said to put Lebron over MJ, even though a similar gap exists between MJ and Lebron, and MJ peaked higher than Lebron too.

I just do not know how to bridge the gap for them.

I’ve always felt that the “you need this many accolades to be top ten all time” was just an incredibly silly argument. It’s both lazy and contradictory. Every career is different and each player reaches their accomplishments under different circumstances.

It's really not hard to make a case for Lebron vs MJ on resume grounds:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=101602375#p101602375

Oh, love the accolade counting that suddenly stops as soon as someone asks about Russell having nearly double Jordan’s titles. Or about Kareem having an extra MVP and four all-NBA spots (tell me, what is the ratio of steals titles to block titles?).

Lebron will have at least eight more all-NBA (at least three first-team) and counting, five more all-star nods and counting, probably around one more full MVP shares by the time he is done, 6K more points and counting, 4K more rebounds and counting, 5K more assists and counting, 12K more minutes and counting… all while playing in a better era against better opponents. So what exactly is the point here about career separation?

Also
-> has led all-nba voting the most times
-> two more MVP's with higher voter share than any of Jordan's
-> 4 in 5 as opposed to 3 in 6 during "prime"

Not sure what the point of listing scoring and steal titles is. Lopsided distribution of box-production is not inherently positive

I actually think MJ was still the better player, but I will say this: 2013 LeBron was better than any version of Jordan. And I’ll take it one step further: 2013 LeBron is better than any version of any player in the history of basketball. There was never anyone as dominant as LeBron was that season. I’ve never seen someone completely manhandle professional basketball players on a nightly basis, and look bored while doing it. It always felt like he was giving minimal effort, and yet he was having one of the greatest seasons of all time.

Ironically, 2013 is one of Lebron's weaker years from a data-based perspective with him posting outlier-level rs and po impact before and after. You'd think that would make people raise their evaluation, but people have jumped many times backwards to try to turn a mountain of MJ+ evidence into a negative on his case

[picko]

The Jordan vs LeBron 'debate' is the least interesting discussion in sports. It's a haven for dullards and boors.

It's so endlessly pointless tearing down one all-time great who stood head-and-shoulders over their peers to elevate another all-time great who stood head-and-shoulders over their peers.

[Gooner]

The Jordan vs LeBron 'debate' is the least interesting discussion in sports. It's a haven for dullards and boors.

It's so endlessly pointless tearing down one all-time great who stood head-and-shoulders over their peers to elevate another all-time great who stood head-and-shoulders over their peers.

I completely agree that the debate is pointless because this is two players from completely different era's. Everybody has an opinion and It's not going to change because of any debate. But I disagree with the opinion that LBJ is head and shoulders above his peers. He is not by any definition. In my opionion Curry is the most impactful and most feared player of this era. Defenses today would rather give up a layup than a open 3. That's Curry effect. LBJ will get his numbers, but his impact is not the same. Curry also elevated the team he was drafted by to a dynasty. LBJ had to go to Miami super team to get his rings.

[The Master]

I’ve always felt that the “you need this many accolades to be top ten all time” was just an incredibly silly argument. It’s both lazy and contradictory. Every career is different and each player reaches their accomplishments under different circumstances.

Well, from my perspective it is completely understandable why Jordan is the GOAT for casuals: if you're not THAT MUCH interested, you need ''quantitative'' simplicity over qualitative complexity (eg. comparing players by number of goals and assists in soccer, etc.) and in this case it is quite easy to prefer one player over another based on these quantitative accolades.

The more proper and much more interesting question is which player (Jordan in ~eleven All-NBA Team-level seasons or LeBron in ~eighteen All-NBA Team-level seasons, but you can formulate it more preferably for MJ obviously) would've won more 'ceteris paribus', and it is probably the correct point of reference regarding such comparisons - but no matter what your answer is (it's completely fine if you still believe that's Jordan here), it definitely demands analytical complexity in your investigation and not only 'quantitative' cause-effect inference based on such raw criteria.

That being said, you can't make a proper all-time ranking only based on simple accolades quantification, so from logical standpoint you shouldn't use such accolades as an argument in general at all, at least in the first place. If you assume Jordan is better over LeBron based on his accolades, Bill Russell is even more better than Jordan (5xMVP + 11 titles as an anchor of championship team, objectively this is much bigger difference than between LeBron and Jordan) - if you believe that between Jordan and Russell there are different variables that diminish huge accolades disparity (level of league, level of their respective teams, era of basketball), you have to investigate such variables also with regard to Jordan vs LeBron comparison, with alternative explanation in your head worth of checking out for pure analytical purposes that perhaps disparity in accolades between them is as well (like in MJ vs Bill case) impacted by variables other than Jordan's superiority.

That's why, when I see such references, I rather skip this part of discussions with specific people, even though it is completely fine to be a casual fan, after all, we all are in different areas of social life.

[TheLand13]

The Jordan vs LeBron 'debate' is the least interesting discussion in sports. It's a haven for dullards and boors.

It's so endlessly pointless tearing down one all-time great who stood head-and-shoulders over their peers to elevate another all-time great who stood head-and-shoulders over their peers.

I completely agree that the debate is pointless because this is two players from completely different era's. Everybody has an opinion and It's not going to change because of any debate. But I disagree with the opinion that LBJ is head and shoulders above his peers. He is not by any definition. In my opionion Curry is the most impactful and most feared player of this era. Defenses today would rather give up a layup than a open 3. That's Curry effect. LBJ will get his numbers, but his impact is not the same. Curry also elevated the team he was drafted by to a dynasty. LBJ had to go to Miami super team to get his rings.

You’re actually trying to argue that Curry had a greater impact on winning than LeBron?

LeBron carried a team with Drew Gooden as his second best player to the finals. When it upgraded to Mo Williams, he made them a 66 win team. Do not try to make the laughable “LeBron had to go to Miami to win”. Curry lucked into a far better situation teammate and franchise wise than LeBron ever did.

And LeBron was head and shoulders above everyone else in his prime. No one had a realistic argument over him as the best player in the world at that point.