Where would Luka rank in the 90’s?

[Matt15]

Where would current 2023 Luka rank overall if he played in the the 90’s?

[rim213221]

He’s behind Jordan for sure and probably Hakeem and Shaq. Tough call between him and Malone but around #4 or #5 overall.

[OhayoKD]

Has a good shot at being the best offensive player in the me thinks. Should be the best playmaker by a margin when Magic leaves.

Could see him replacing Magic to compete with Jordan and Hakeem for best player in the league.

[No-more-rings]

Ahead of Jordan obviously. Too tall, fast, strong, athletic, and too good of a shooter compared to what Jordan was back then.

[1993Playoffs]

Ahead of Jordan obviously. Too tall, fast, strong, athletic, and too good of a shooter compared to what Jordan was back then.

Are you trolling or you really believe this? Lol only asking because I’ve read some wild post recently that were actually serious though

[AEnigma]

Ahead of Jordan obviously. Too tall, fast, strong, athletic, and too good of a shooter compared to what Jordan was back then.

Are you trolling or you really believe this? Lol only asking because I’ve read some wild post recently that were actually serious though

He is trolling all the nonexistent people who would make something similar to that argument.

I would have him as the decade’s / league’s best offensive player, and I think his defence would be less deleterious than it is now. However, I also think it would be tricky to build a team to take proper advantage of his at-that-point unparalleled offensive load, so top 3 to 5 seems safe to me.

[eminence]

Depending on the year - MJ, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Shaq, Barkley, Duncan, KG, Ewing I think would all have arguments. I’d say in the 3-5 range most seasons (not so different from today).

His defense probably works better in that era, though I’d have his offense a shade worse and a clear step behind MJ. Just not the shooters available for him to take advantage of.

[OhayoKD]

Depending on the year - MJ, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Shaq, Barkley, Duncan, KG, Ewing I think would all have arguments. I’d say in the 3-5 range most seasons (not so different from today).

His defense probably works better in that era, though I’d have his offense a shade worse and a clear step behind MJ. Just not the shooters available for him to take advantage of.

When you say his offense is a shade worse, are you talking raw production or in terms of his offensive impact. Because the competition also lacks shooters(and his playmaking/ball-handling/shooting is more of an outlier). Really, the lack of shooters probably puts Luka as one of the primer spacers of the era.

Luka should be better if anything, even if we disregard the talent pool increasing

[OhayoKD]

Ahead of Jordan obviously. Too tall, fast, strong, athletic, and too good of a shooter compared to what Jordan was back then.

Are you trolling or you really believe this? Lol only asking because I’ve read some wild post recently that were actually serious though

Would I happen to be the author of some of these posts?

[eminence]

Depending on the year - MJ, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Shaq, Barkley, Duncan, KG, Ewing I think would all have arguments. I’d say in the 3-5 range most seasons (not so different from today).

His defense probably works better in that era, though I’d have his offense a shade worse and a clear step behind MJ. Just not the shooters available for him to take advantage of.

When you say his offense is a shade worse, are you talking raw production or in terms of his offensive impact. Because the competition also lacks shooters(and his playmaking/ball-handling/shooting is more of an outlier). Really, the lack of shooters probably puts Luka as one of the primer spacers of the era.

Luka should be better if anything, even if we disregard the talent pool increasing

His offensive impact would be slightly less in the 90s than in the current era by my estimation.

[OhayoKD]

Ahead of Jordan obviously. Too tall, fast, strong, athletic, and too good of a shooter compared to what Jordan was back then.

Are you trolling or you really believe this? Lol only asking because I’ve read some wild post recently that were actually serious though

He is trolling all the nonexistent people who would make something similar to that argument.

I would have him as the decade’s / league’s best offensive player, and I think his defence would be less deleterious than it is now. However, I also think it would be tricky to build a team to take proper advantage of his at-that-point unparalleled offensive load, so top 3 to 5 seems safe to me.

How do you think he compares to Magic? Have Johnson 3rd for the era, but the bits of impact-stuff we have seems to place ervin a bit ahead of the other two(well okay wowyr says it's alot ahead but )

[OhayoKD]

Depending on the year - MJ, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Shaq, Barkley, Duncan, KG, Ewing I think would all have arguments. I’d say in the 3-5 range most seasons (not so different from today).

His defense probably works better in that era, though I’d have his offense a shade worse and a clear step behind MJ. Just not the shooters available for him to take advantage of.

When you say his offense is a shade worse, are you talking raw production or in terms of his offensive impact. Because the competition also lacks shooters(and his playmaking/ball-handling/shooting is more of an outlier). Really, the lack of shooters probably puts Luka as one of the primer spacers of the era.

Luka should be better if anything, even if we disregard the talent pool increasing

His offensive impact would be slightly less in the 90s than in the current era by my estimation.

Hmm, yeah, I think the shooting alone would ensure the opposite(scarcity -> value and there is a scarcity there). Though, theoretically, if I was to use the argument I made against Jokic, the passing might be less valuable(hesistate because I'm not sure he qualifies as a "great" passer in the current league).

Otoh, he's already been using the "jump" in improvisation we saw from guards(spear-headed by isiah) as the league existed the 80's. So his ball-handling probably amplifies.

[eminence]

When you say his offense is a shade worse, are you talking raw production or in terms of his offensive impact. Because the competition also lacks shooters(and his playmaking/ball-handling/shooting is more of an outlier). Really, the lack of shooters probably puts Luka as one of the primer spacers of the era.

Luka should be better if anything, even if we disregard the talent pool increasing

His offensive impact would be slightly less in the 90s than in the current era by my estimation.

Hmm, yeah, I think the shooting alone would ensure the opposite(scarcity -> value and there is a scarcity there). Though, theoretically, if I was to use the argument I made against Jokic, the passing might be less valuable(hesistate because I'm not sure he qualifies as a "great" passer in the current league).

Otoh, he's already been using the "jump" in improvisation we saw from guards(spear-headed by isiah) as the league existed the 80's. So his ball-handling probably amplifies.

Gotta have significant value in the first place for scarcity to drive up the value, and Lukas shot isn't good enough.

Lukas #1 offensive ability in the current league is his bully ball drive into kick game, whether out of isolation or a PnR.

He's got nobody to kick it to in most 90s settings.

Maybe he gets luck and lands with Rudy T and he knows how to use him and to build around him the right way, most likely not though.

[OhayoKD]

His offensive impact would be slightly less in the 90s than in the current era by my estimation.

Hmm, yeah, I think the shooting alone would ensure the opposite(scarcity -> value and there is a scarcity there). Though, theoretically, if I was to use the argument I made against Jokic, the passing might be less valuable(hesistate because I'm not sure he qualifies as a "great" passer in the current league).

Otoh, he's already been using the "jump" in improvisation we saw from guards(spear-headed by isiah) as the league existed the 80's. So his ball-handling probably amplifies.

Gotta have significant value in the first place for scarcity to drive up the value, and Lukas shot isn't good enough.

[/quote][/quote]
Huh? 8 3PA on 35% against significantly more coverage(half the defenses of the 80's/90's didn't really bother) is more than good enough. The math works out by a pretty nice margin actually.

Lukas #1 offensive ability in the current league is his bully ball drive into kick game, whether out of isolation or a PnR.

He's got nobody to kick it to in most 90s settings.

He's got as much to kick-out to as any of the competition and he's better at all the other passes than anyone not named Magic(who is about to retire). Also kick-outs were still very much a thing, they just generally ended in 2's instead of 3's. This might hurt Luka in raw creation, but it doesn't hurt him relatively, and it's the latter bit that allowed three players(two of him were comparatively limited either as ball-handlers, passers, or both) to output goated creative influence(IIRC Jordan ranks 5th in playval, Magic 1st. Bird top 10).

Maybe he gets luck and lands with Rudy T and he knows how to use him and to build around him the right way, most likely not though.

Eh...

Setting aside that Luka is both an all-time versatile playmaker, and an all-time versatile scorer, even if we assume his impact is tied to specific personell, Luka doesn't have qualms about getting coaches fired.

[70sFan]

It seems that at this point we have to assume that modern players translate better to previous eras, otherwise it's a controversial take...

I'm with eminence here, Luka offensive style isn't as well suited for the 1990s as for now. Again, there is a reason why we didn't see such players back then and it's not because of lack of talent.

[dygaction]

It seems that at this point we have to assume that modern players translate better to previous eras, otherwise it's a controversial take...

I'm with eminence here, Luka offensive style isn't as well suited for the 1990s as for now. Again, there is a reason why we didn't see such players back then and it's not because of lack of talent.

Not all, but it certainly is a big part of it.

[Dutchball97]

I'd take Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson and Shaq over current Luka for the vast majority of the 90s. Karl Malone is on the cusp here as I think he probably peaked a bit higher in the late 90s but I think Luka would have the advantage most years. Luka over Pippen seems fair most years too but similarly to Malone it would depend on the seasons.

Magic and Barkley in the early 90s are pretty easily better than current Luka imo as is late 90s Duncan. There are of course also arguments for early 90s Ewing and late 90s Mourning.

Tbf I'm probably lower on Luka than the majority though. I think he's peaked at a fringe-MVP level so far and I'm still patiently waiting since his sophomore year to finally make that final step but he doesn't seem to be improving at a particularly fast rate. At this point this might just be who Luka is, great offensive player with limited defense who sometimes forces things too much at the detriment of the team's offense.

[AEnigma]

It seems that at this point we have to assume that modern players translate better to previous eras, otherwise it's a controversial take…

As always, depends on the player, the era, and the assumed translation. Are threes functionally outlawed? Then yes, someone like Booker or Klay or Steph or Harden is going to struggle to maintain their rank and impact. Is the era the early 2000s? Then yes, essentially every player is going to struggle more on offence.

Luka would not be as purely valuable on offence in the 1990s, no… but by that mark, no older player really compares in raw offensive value today, and no defensive player today compares to the raw defensive value of older bigs. Either way, “does he perfectly maintain his absolute offensive value” was not the question. The question was where does he rank. Is there is a better passer in the 1990s? I would say no, while acknowledging some may push for Stockton. Is there a better creator in the 1990s? Even clearer no. How many better scorers? A couple, maybe, but Luka’s scoring game is not anything poorly suited to the 1990s (contrast someone like say Dwight Howard).

Luka is not competing with Jokic, or Steph, or Trae, or Lillard. He is competing with Jordan, Reggie Miller, an often injured Barkley, an often injured KJ… oh, and now he is also easier to hide defensively. Again, I think you can argue some bigs over him still because of the era, but among perimetre players? Relative to the league, you are kind-of taking a Magic level passer and giving him Jordan’s scoring volume. Should not be a “controversial take” to recognise the extent to which that will stand out…

[dygaction]

I'd take Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson and Shaq over current Luka for the vast majority of the 90s. Karl Malone is on the cusp here as I think he probably peaked a bit higher in the late 90s but I think Luka would have the advantage most years. Luka over Pippen seems fair most years too but similarly to Malone it would depend on the seasons.

Magic and Barkley in the early 90s are pretty easily better than current Luka imo as is late 90s Duncan. There are of course also arguments for early 90s Ewing and late 90s Mourning.

Tbf I'm probably lower on Luka than the majority though. I think he's peaked at a fringe-MVP level so far and I'm still patiently waiting since his sophomore year to finally make that final step but he doesn't seem to be improving at a particularly fast rate. At this point this might just be who Luka is, great offensive player with limited defense who sometimes forces things too much at the detriment of the team's offense.

Seems you have a much higher expectations of Luka.. He has made solid growth each year. Compare to last season, he improved his efficiency and reduced turnovers by quite a lot. Also he just turned 24 last week

[Gooner]

Luka relies a lot on foul calls, and he wouldn't be getting those calls back then. He can't be touched in today's game.