Would Tracy McGrady have been better if he played Point Guard?

[cam24thomas]

When I watch videos of him, he looks like a better version of LeBron, with better passing and better handles.
At his peak he scored 32.1ppg, but I think he could have averaged 10+ assists, do you?
A trio of McGrady, Wade and Bosh in Miami would have 3-peated most likely.
In the Playoffs from 2001 to 2008, McGrady averaged 29.5 points, 6.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 1.4 steals, 1.1 blocks in 35 games.

[og15]

He was a primary ball handler for a lot of his career in Houston, playing PG would have done nothing to make him better

[cam24thomas]

He was a primary ball handler for a lot of his career in Houston, playing PG would have done nothing to make him better

But statistically he's known for being a scorer, when I think he could have averaged 10apg if he had a #2 like Wade or Kyrie to help with the scoring....
Would have likely won 3 or 4 Championships too.

[lambchop]

He was a primary ball handler for a lot of his career in Houston, playing PG would have done nothing to make him better

But statistically he's known for being a scorer, when I think he could have averaged 10apg if he had a #2 like Wade or Kyrie to help with the scoring....
Would have likely won 3 or 4 Championships too.

He had Yao Ming, but even when Yao averaged 25 in the playoffs tmac still wasn't averaging 10 assists. The issue for tmac wasn't that he wasn't playing PG, he always played with mediocre point guards like Lue or Rafer Alston, just like Lebron had similar point guards as his teammates.

Tmac's issue was just that he didn't quite understand passing and efficient scoring at the level of lebron. Tmac would usually end up in the long mid range shot area which just isn't an optimal spot to force the defense to commit in order to make a pass nor is it optimal in terms of a high quality shot.

[cam24thomas]

He was a primary ball handler for a lot of his career in Houston, playing PG would have done nothing to make him better

But statistically he's known for being a scorer, when I think he could have averaged 10apg if he had a #2 like Wade or Kyrie to help with the scoring....
Would have likely won 3 or 4 Championships too.

He had Yao Ming, but even when Yao averaged 25 in the playoffs tmac still wasn't averaging 10 assists. The issue for tmac wasn't that he wasn't playing PG, he always played with mediocre point guards like Lue or Rafer Alston, just like Lebron had similar point guards as his teammates.

Tmac's issue was just that he didn't quite understand passing and efficient scoring at the level of lebron. Tmac would usually end up in the long mid range shot area which just isn't an optimal spot to force the defense to commit in order to make a pass nor is it optimal in terms of a high quality shot.

Yao averaged about half the points that Wade did, so McGrady would have been given 3 or 4 more easy assists if he played with a Wade or Kyrie. So I think he'd average about 10 assists no matter where he shot from.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

He was a primary ball handler for a lot of his career in Houston, playing PG would have done nothing to make him better

Its more about a change in mindset from being a volume scorer. I wonder if he would've been a better all around player with more effort on passing/defence. He was more of a skilled passer than he showed, that was largely understood with his scoring mindset. (imo)

As a 20 year old he was averaging 2 blocks a game. I mean developing him as a shotblocker would've been strange giving his scoring talents, but, maybe, why not both? I wish we lived in a multiverse where we could develop players in different ways and experiment with the results.

[LEGGOman]

I see you listed his first round playoff stats. How about you list the rest for better comparison?


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[Dr Aki]

I see you listed his first round playoff stats. How about you list the rest for better comparison?


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I see what you did there

[lambchop]

But statistically he's known for being a scorer, when I think he could have averaged 10apg if he had a #2 like Wade or Kyrie to help with the scoring....
Would have likely won 3 or 4 Championships too.

He had Yao Ming, but even when Yao averaged 25 in the playoffs tmac still wasn't averaging 10 assists. The issue for tmac wasn't that he wasn't playing PG, he always played with mediocre point guards like Lue or Rafer Alston, just like Lebron had similar point guards as his teammates.

Tmac's issue was just that he didn't quite understand passing and efficient scoring at the level of lebron. Tmac would usually end up in the long mid range shot area which just isn't an optimal spot to force the defense to commit in order to make a pass nor is it optimal in terms of a high quality shot.

Yao averaged about half the points that Wade did, so McGrady would have been given 3 or 4 more easy assists if he played with a Wade or Kyrie. So I think he'd average about 10 assists no matter where he shot from.

So Wade averaged 40 to 50 points per game? I guess Kyrie averaged that amount as well. Again, Tmac not being able to use Yao to "get more assists" is essentially on him. He was an awesome passer, but definitely not elite. Also, LBJs Miami years actually make up 4 of his 5 worst in terms of playoff assist averages. So playing with Wade was not the key here, although they had excellent chemistry on cuts, alley oops, transition buckets etc.

[cam24thomas]

So Wade averaged 40 to 50 points per game? I guess Kyrie averaged that amount as well. Again, Tmac not being able to use Yao to "get more assists" is essentially on him. He was an awesome passer, but definitely not elite. Also, LBJs Miami years actually make up 4 of his 5 worst in terms of playoff assist averages. So playing with Wade was not the key here, although they had excellent chemistry on cuts, alley oops, transition buckets etc.

Exactly, 3 or 4 more easy assists if McGrady played with Wade. And McGrady already averaged 6.5 assists per game in his 35 playoff games from 2001-2008.
LeBron is a very safe passer, not much creativity, whereas I find McGrady's passing a lot more skillful and creative, so very well-suited to a finisher like Wade.
Of course we'll never know what would happen if McGrady played with Wade and Bosh in Miami, but I'm very confident they'd be unbeatable in the playoffs.

[GSWFan1994]

When I watch videos of him, he looks like a better version of LeBron, with better passing and better handles.
At his peak he scored 32.1ppg, but I think he could have averaged 10+ assists, do you?
A trio of McGrady, Wade and Bosh in Miami would have 3-peated most likely.
In the Playoffs from 2001 to 2008, McGrady averaged 29.5 points, 6.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 1.4 steals, 1.1 blocks in 35 games.

Dear young padawan, you've got to realize the finer intricacies of the game...

Being a point forward and/or a primary ballhandler is different than playing as a point guard.

For example, if you play as a point guard you should be able, most of the time, to defend the opposition's point guard, chasing him around the court, over the screens and such... it can get very tiresome doing that AND being your team's primary source of creation and scoring opportunities.

Moreover, if you are a primary ballhandler from a SG/SF standpoint (like LeBron, Harden and dozens of others throughout the years), you can have a PG who can defend the opposition at the point of attack (think the Harden/Beverley dynamic) plus serve as a spot up shooter on offense, thus opening up the court and providing much needed spacing for you to monopolize the ball.

That's one of the reasons why, let's say, a pairing of Luka and Kyrie will be so hard to work out effectively. Basically both of them do the same thing on offense, neutralizing their strong points and minimizing the team's potential.

Kind regards,

Jedi Master GSWFan

[MavfanAus]

I swear Ben10 has a session on 2k20, finds a player that she's never heard of from the 90's or early to mid 2000s, plays with that player then after the 2k sesh, jumps on YouTube and watches some clips, then comes to realGM to update her signature with her new 2k20 team and then sets up a thread with hypothetical scenarios regarding said player and makes them sound like that player is the GOAT.

[cupcakesnake]

Tmac had the ball in his hands for most of his career, so it's not like you can tilt things much further towards him as a helio.

Tmac struggled with rim finishing and shot selection (and of course injuries). I think his point guard abilities were a bit hampered by the fact that he was always too willing to take a pull up jumper.

People love the idea and highlights of Tmac. But if you get into the details and watch full games of him, you see the same highs but also the things that made him frustrating. Injuries ultimately deprived him of the chance to figure it out better, but I tend to group him in with guys like Carmelo: players who were insanely talented but struggled to grow and adapt over their careers.

[cam24thomas]

Dear young padawan, you've got to realize the finer intricacies of the game...

Being a point forward and/or a primary ballhandler is different than playing as a point guard.

For example, if you play as a point guard you should be able, most of the time, to defend the opposition's point guard, chasing him around the court, over the screens and such... it can get very tiresome doing that AND being your team's primary source of creation and scoring opportunities.

Moreover, if you are a primary ballhandler from a SG/SF standpoint (like LeBron, Harden and dozens of others throughout the years), you can have a PG who can defend the opposition at the point of attack (think the Harden/Beverley dynamic) plus serve as a spot up shooter on offense, thus opening up the court and providing much needed spacing for you to monopolize the ball.

That's one of the reasons why, let's say, a pairing of Luka and Kyrie will be so hard to work out effectively. Basically both of them do the same thing on offense, neutralizing their strong points and minimizing the team's potential.

Kind regards,

Jedi Master GSWFan

According to basketball reference, LeBron played Point Guard in 2019-20 and 2020-21, and in one of those year's he averaged 10.2 assists per game!
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
Do you think McGrady could have averaged 10.2 assists too if he played Point Guard?
And do you think McGrady would be able to defend Point Guards?
McGrady's got the most flexible body of anybody I've ever played with-

[GSWFan1994]

According to basketball reference, LeBron played Point Guard in 2019-20 and 2020-21, and in one of those year's he averaged 10.2 assists per game!
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
Do you think McGrady could have averaged 10.2 assists too if he played Point Guard?
And do you think McGrady would be able to defend Point Guards?

About LeBron playing PG, it was just a matter of semantics IMO. In those years he had Avery Bradley and Rajon Rondo playing spot up PG minutes too, and most importantly, defending the other side's PG.

About T-Mac averaging 10 assists, why not? If you give a player unlimited usage, and if he's talented enough, he could average those numbers, yes, efficiency and durability be damned.

About T-Mac defending PGs... hell no. I've seen him play when he was in both Orlando and Houston, and apart from specific situations, he couldn't do it. T-Mac was a classic point forward/point swingman, as so many others before and after him.

You've got to focus on your beginner's training, young padawan!

[UcanUwill]

TMac was creator, yes, we look back at Erick Snow, Rafer Alston days and wonder what these people were thinking, now you always want the ball to be in capable superscorers hands, like look how Campazzo worked out nowadays, and thats for the best, offenses has never been better.

But that said, some of the balance has been lost.Is playing like Harden or Luka really a winning formula? Even a ball dominant guy like LeBron, really shares the ball far more than these guys these days. His haters will even hate him for that, loser LeBron passing out game winning shots etc. But true is, when guy domiantes the ball 85% of the time, like Luka, it kills it, it kills chemistry, it kills other guys confidence and it kills system. Just a sign of badly constructed team and badly trained player. These type of super guards havent won a championship so far.

[cam24thomas]

About LeBron playing PG, it was just a matter of semantics IMO. In those years he had Avery Bradley and Rajon Rondo playing spot up PG minutes too, and most importantly, defending the other side's PG.

About T-Mac averaging 10 assists, why not? If you give a player unlimited usage, and if he's talented enough, he could average those numbers, yes, efficiency and durability be damned.

About T-Mac defending PGs... hell no. I've seen him play when he was in both Orlando and Houston, and apart from specific situations, he couldn't do it. T-Mac was a classic point forward/point swingman, as so many others before and after him.

You've got to focus on your beginner's training, young padawan!

Jedi do you know any swingmen whom you think could play Point Guard at both ends?
I'm guessing some players have been forced into being swingmen because they were drafted into a team that already had a PG.
Was McGrady bad at defending PGs because his body wasn't athletic enough to stay in front of them, or did they just make him tired?

[GSWFan1994]

Jedi do you know any swingmen whom you think could play Point Guard at both ends?
I'm guessing some players have been forced into being swingmen because they were drafted into a team that already had a PG.
Was McGrady bad at defending PGs because his body wasn't athletic enough to stay in front of them, or did they just make him tired?

Both sides of the court, full time? I don't know at the moment, I can't remember a single one.

Now for spot minutes or with specific lineups, ok, there are many... but full time, none that I can remember.

As for you other question, I think it's a little bit of both, but more of the 2nd option.

I mean, it can get really tiresome to be, at the same time, your team's primary source of ballhandling and scoring, *and* guard the opposition's best ballhandler and scorer. Even Magic Johnson didn't defend the other team's PG full time (Norm Nixon, Michael Cooper, Byron Scott did it at times).

Maybe Jordan, Jerry West did it... but like I said above, not full time, not full game.

It's just a matter of human nature, there's a limit to the energy you can expend before your performance suffers.

[dhsilv2]

The idea tmac would be the point over Irving or especially Wade is a really odd one to me. If anything Wade was more suited to be the point. Tmac was a really solid passer, but he wasn't a guy you'd want in that era just bringing the ball up and setting up an offense.

[canada_dry]

But statistically he's known for being a scorer, when I think he could have averaged 10apg if he had a #2 like Wade or Kyrie to help with the scoring....
Would have likely won 3 or 4 Championships too.

He had Yao Ming, but even when Yao averaged 25 in the playoffs tmac still wasn't averaging 10 assists. The issue for tmac wasn't that he wasn't playing PG, he always played with mediocre point guards like Lue or Rafer Alston, just like Lebron had similar point guards as his teammates.

Tmac's issue was just that he didn't quite understand passing and efficient scoring at the level of lebron. Tmac would usually end up in the long mid range shot area which just isn't an optimal spot to force the defense to commit in order to make a pass nor is it optimal in terms of a high quality shot.

Yao averaged about half the points that Wade did, so McGrady would have been given 3 or 4 more easy assists if he played with a Wade or Kyrie. So I think he'd average about 10 assists no matter where he shot from.

I didnt know wade averaged 50 ppg...

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