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Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard were two of the most dominant NBA big men in the 21st century. Both found initial success on the teams that drafted them, then left for greener pastures. It obviously worked out better for The Big Ticket.

But who was the better player during the best years on their first teams? Dwight in Orlando, or Kevin in Minnesota? I imagine most people would pick Garnett without a seconds thought, but I'm not so sure. There's a discrepancy regarding team success, supporting casts, and individual performance that I can't shake.

Team Performance

Both Minnesota and Orlando were winning teams, but the advantage has to go to The Magic. They won more games, had a better SRS, and had more postseason success - even accounting for opponent strength/conference. Minnesota never beat a team like 2009 Cleveland. 2004 Sacramento and 2009 Boston feel similarly strong.

Team Performance

Minnesota 1999-2000:
- 50-32 W/L (Expected W/L = 48-34 [10th out of 29])
- 2.67 SRS (9th out of 29)
- Terrell Brandon missed 11 games

Minnesota 2000-2001:
- 47-35 W/L (Expected W/L = 45-37 [15th out of 29])
- 1.81 SRS (12th out of 29)

Minnesota 2001-2002:
- 50-32 W/L (Expected W/L = 51-31 [6th out of 29])
- 3.58 SRS (6th out of 29)
- Terrell Brandon retired - missed 50 games

Minnesota 2002-2003:
- 51-32 W/L (Expected W/L = 47-35 [12th out of 29])
- 2.46 SRS (10th out of 29)
- Wally missed 30 games

Minnesota 2003-2004:
- 58-24 W/L (Expected W/L = 57-25 [4th out of 29])
- 5.86 SRS (2nd out of 29)
- Wally missed 54 games

Orlando 2007-2008:
- 52-30 W/L (Expected W/L = 56-26 [6th out of 30])
- 4.79 SRS (9th out of 30)
- Jameer missed 13 games

Orlando 2008-2009:
- 59-23 W/L (Expected W/L = 59-23 [4th out of 30])
- 6.48 SRS (4th out of 30)
- Jameer missed 40 games

Orlando 2009-2010:
- 59-23 W/L (Expected W/L = 61-21 [1st out of 30])
- 7.12 SRS (1st out of 30)
- Jameer missed 17 games
- Rashard missed 10 games

Orlando 2010-2011:
- 52-30 W/L (Expected W/L = 56-26 [5th out of 30])
- 4.92 SRS (5th out of 30)
- Rashard and Carter traded for Hedo and Arenas

Supporting Casts

Most would explain this by pointing to the supporting casts. I look at the names that each player had to work with. And you know what? I'm not seeing a definitive advantage for Dwight. Looks like a wash to me.

All-Star selections aren't the best measure of supporting casts, but both had two teammates make the team. Three if you include early seasons, but they were both too young for it to matter here.

Here's a quick rundown of teammates:

Notable Supporting Cast

Dwight:
- Jameer Nelson
- Hedo Turkoglu
- Rashard Lewis
- Vince Carter
- Gilbert Arenas
- JJ Reddick

Kevin:
- Stephon Marbury
- Terrell Brandon
- Chauncey Billups
- Wally Szczerbiak
- Sam Cassell
- Latrell Sprewell
- Fred Hoiberg

Is there really enough of a difference in support to explain the team performance results? Remember: SRS accounts for strength of schedule and opponent quality. Orlando was quite clearly the superior team over Kevin and Dwight's best years.

System and Coaching

If the explanation isn't supporting casts, then it's usually coaching and system. But once again, I don't feel strongly about this. Flip Saunders and Stan Van Gundy were both capable offensive-minded coaches. Their game plans were similar and yet different at the same time.

Both teams were constructed with the idea of surrounding a dominant defender with offensively-slanted talent. That's what's similar. What was different was the approach to offense. Orlando surrounded a dominant paint scorer with three-point shooters. Minnesota used the mid-range to open up shots in the paint and beyond the arc.

Both systems were built around their star big men and yet one gets more credit for that than the other. It's usually the on-off net rating that people usually point to, but we know how lineups can influence it. Not to mention roster construction as well.

I think there are limitations when building around Garnett. So his play-by-play data looked herculean, but I'm not sure it would've held with a stronger bench. Mookie Blaylock and Nate McMillan looked like top 10 players in the '90s according to on-off net rating.

Dwight was so integral to that Orlando team. Take him out and neither the defense nor the offense functioned. The three-point shooting only worked because they had the best paint scorer in the league. Not to mention they could only play all those offensive-slanted players because Dwight protected them defensively.

Orlando kept trucking along, regardless of who was on the team or was healthy and playing. Jameer went down halfway through the '08-'09 season and The Magic didn't miss a beat. Went 27-12 and won three playoff series. Hedo left the team and they won just as many games in '09-'10, had a better SRS, and W/L% including the postseason. Rashard and Vince got traded in '10-'11 and the team's win pace very slightly improved.

All of these supposed "core" pieces and yet they continued to perform to a high degree without them. Hell, Dwight had the team winning at a 50-win pace during the lockout-shortened '11-'12 season. No Rashard, regressed Jameer, Ryan Anderson, and an old Hedo who was basically finished as a player.

Individual Performance

Both Dwight and Kevin played great individually and won a lot of accolades and awards. Very different players though. Garnett was a protomodern big that liked to pass and shoot from the elbows. Howard was a classic hyper-athletic bruiser who was at his best establishing deep position down low.

One was averse to physicality; the other couldn't shoot a lick.

Here's a look at their numbers from those aforementioned seasons:

*HEAVES REMOVED*

Kevin Garnett '00-'04 Regular Season:

- 407 games
- 22.7 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.7 bpg, 2.9 topg
- 49.0% FG, 77.4% FT, 54.3% TS, 27.3% usage rate

Kevin Garnett '00-'04 Playoffs:

- 35 games
- 23.7 ppg, 14.4 rpg, 5.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.9 bpg, 3.5 topg
- 46.0% FG, 75.9% FT, 51.85% TS, 28.7% usage rate

Dwight Howard '08-'11 Regular Season:

- 321 games
- 20.6 ppg, 13.8 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.0 spg, 2.6 bpg, 3.3 topg
- 59.5% FG, 59.3% FT, 61.75% TS, 25.4% usage rate

Dwight Howard '08-'11 Playoffs:

- 53 games
- 20.2 ppg, 14.3 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.8 spg, 2.9 bpg, 3.5 topg
- 60.6% FG, 59.6% FT, 62.6% TS, 24.2% usage rate

It's hard to compare them because they're such different players. Garnett's strengths are his mobility, shooting, and passing. Howard's strengths are his physicality, finishing, and foul pressure. Dominant defenders in slightly different ways; integral offensive pieces in completely unique avenues.

And I do think Dwight's foul pressure should be emphasized. He drew the most fouls in NBA history I believe. Even relative to his usage/field goal attempts and free throws. An extreme outlier in this regard. He was getting fouled because he was either:

- Too close to the hoop with the ball
- Making a move to the hoop (post seals, duck-ins, alley-oops, offensive rebounds)
- Hack-a-Dwight strategy

I wonder about the value of this foul pressure outside of going to the line himself. He put specific players in foul trouble so that they would play fewer minutes and not play as hard on both ends. He would get his team into the bonus, influencing how the opponent would play on defense and even offense. I'm sure this impact radiated into all lineups, even ones without him.

Well, that's about it. I think anyone who outright dismisses this comparison is not looking at things clearly. It's extremely close in my opinion. It's always going to be hard to compare individual players in a team game. Especially when they're different types of players.

My argument for both players would be:

Garnett: Didn't have pieces that fit as well; bench was weaker.
Howard: Easier to build a high-level team around; got more out of his teammates.

Dwight, better athlete, better finisher and better defender, I've played as them both.

uh-oh
this is gonna be good

In his prime Garnett was compared to Duncan, Nowitzky, and Webber. I pick Garnett.

Good idea not to put a poll, people post their reasons more when there is no poll.

I haven't been on RealGM in a few days, what's with all these "Prime Dwight Howard" threads?

chilluminati wrote:I haven't been on RealGM in a few days, what's with all these "Prime Dwight Howard" threads?

Dwight had the highest peak/prime other than MJ, athletically-speaking especially, plus he's probably the only player in NBA history whom could carry that Magic team to the Finals.

Kevin Garnett by a very, very solid margin.

Domejandro wrote:Kevin Garnett by a very, very solid margin.

You clearly haven't played as them in a video game.

Looking at the raw stats it's Dwight, Garrett was pretty inefficient.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

Kevin if we consider length of dominance. Dwight for a couple years in his prime was a monster. So I go Kevin for longevity and Dwight for highest prime.

Interesting topic, thread!
Hard to say who.
But, keep in mind those Minn teams were up against a lot of very good teams in the west during the playoffs. West was deep. Also a few young, up and coming teams were starting to rise during the late '90s, early '00s like Kings, Mavs, TWolves, etc.
Minn could've won a championship.

Magic teams were good too, in a slightly weaker east. But, Orlando was very good, could've won a championship. Made deeper playoff runs (including NBA Finals) more often than Minn, KG.
I think Howard was a better finisher at the rim and more stronger on defense, rebounds.

Oh lawd.
You're gonna put the Garnett Stans in a tizzy with this one!

CIN-C-STAR wrote:Oh lawd.
You're gonna put the Garnett Stans in a tizzy with this one!

dirkdiggler4177 wrote:In his prime Garnett was compared to Duncan, Nowitzky, and Webber. I pick Garnett.

Sure he was, but Dwight was third best guy in the league for a short period of time. Man made finals with average team.

jkvonny wrote:Interesting topic, thread!
Hard to say who.
But, keep in mind those Minn teams were up against a lot of very good teams in the west during the playoffs. West was deep. Also a few young, up and coming teams were starting to rise during the late '90s, early '00s like Kings, Mavs, TWolves, etc.
Minn could've won a championship.

Magic teams were good too, in a slightly weaker east. But, Orlando was very good, could've won a championship. Made deeper playoff runs (including NBA Finals) more often than Minn, KG.
I think Howard was a better finisher at the rim and more stronger on defense, rebounds.

SRS and expected W/L adjust for strength of schedule and opponent quality. Dwight's Orlando teams were consistently better and reached a higher peak.

I may be in the minority but here goes.

I never saw Kevin Garnett as a dominant player.

Could he play elite defense sure. Could his defense completely shift a series or cause other teams to game plan to somehow avoid him, no.

Offensively he never was the type of guy who was gonna outscore the other teams superstar iso scorer etc but was he an effective scorer who could somewhat negate the other teams main scorer, at times sure he could.

But I just never saw KG as a guy who'd outperform Tim or Dirk when needed, even C Webb is on that list.

However Dwight was so far and above elite defensively as a paint/ rim protector opposing teams assuredly planned to somehow avoid him.

And although Dwight also wasn't gonna outscore other teams main scorer consistently he was a guy who could get 20+ rebs and 30 or 40pts easily on 12 shots and that was the game changer, his foul drawing ability.

Dwight Howard was just more elite and a threat as a defender vs KG who was a jack of all trades guy who resorted to jumpshots too often for his height but he had to due to his size.

Pretty easily KG.

I don't want a star that relies on another to get their shot, and is useless in the clutch. You can give KG the ball and let him go with the game on the line. Had a 2-1 assist/TO ratio (Dwight had 1-2 ratio ), and can hit FTs with the game on the line.

Dwight is only a threat if you can throw him a lob, or he can get an OReb with the game on the line. You can't give him the ball, they will just foul him. Can't dribble, can't pass, can't shoot. Different style but similar defensive impact. I'm not big on the stats, but offense and defense box +/- stats and VORP are insanely lopsided for KG.

if u look at stats, tatum is better than butler. but who do you want as your #1 in the playoffs?

a lot of yall need to re-think how you evaluate players.

name decent offensive players garnett played in his prime with and compare than to orlando dwight in his prime, it's a joke.

wally szczerbiak, 35 year old sam cassell, 34 year old sprewell, troy hudson, ricky davis, terrell brandon?

compare that to:

turkoglu, grant hill, jameer nelson, jj reddick, rashard lewis, courtney lee, matt barnes, 34 year old vince carter

you're offensive numbers are gonna look inefficient when you have to carry a bigger load on that the offensive end of the court on top of being the leader of the defense.

like leadership is important. garnett is a million times the leader dwight is. so being slightly more efficient in some dumb stat isn't tipping the scales dwight's way lmao.