Jason Kidd, Defense, and Exceptions to the Rule

[FrodoBaggins]

It's generally accepted that big men have a greater impact on defense than perimeter players. This is because they spend more time protecting the paint and are naturally involved in more defensive possessions due to their positioning on the court. Sure, some centers suck at defense and have a negative impact. And some guards are defensive dynamos with the impact to match.

But when it comes to the good and especially the elite defenders at the center, forward, and guard positions, the taller timber in the frontcourt tends to have a greater impact.

Right? I think most would agree on that as a general rule. I know the analytics guys would agree. After a certain point, the top end of historical defensive on/off, statistical box-derived defensive plus-minus stats, defensive RAPM, and seasonal one-number defensive metrics is populated by centers and power forwards.

Bill Russell, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, Rudy Gobert, etc. These are the names we'll see first and foremost. The cream of the crop defensively. Missing a few names but that more or less covers the big hitters on defense according to the numbers.

But what if I proposed to you this question: Can an elite defensive PG impact defense as much as an elite defensive center?

What would your response be? I know, "elite defensive PG" and "elite defensive center" are vague denominations. Am I talking about those guys listed above? Or your typical elite-but-not-all-time defensive centers? Honestly, I'm not sure. But this is a question I want to pose to you, and a discussion that greatly interests me. And it's one that other posters have discussed on RealGM before.

--

Jason Kidd had an intriguing run through his prime of consistently elevating teams defensively. Whenever he joined those teams, they got better, and largely on defense. And when he left? The opposite happened.

When he joined New Jersey:

2000-01 Nets: 100.0 ORtg (-3.0 rORtg); 105.5 DRtg (+2.5 rDRtg); -5.5 net rating; -5.30 SRS; 26-56 W/L
2001-02 Nets: 104.0 ORtg (-0.5 rORtg); 99.5 DRtg (-5.0 rDRtg); +4.5 net rating; +3.67 SRS; 52-30 W/L

Change: +4.0 ORtg (+2.5 rORtg); -6.0 DRtg (-7.5 rDRtg); +10.0 net rating; +8.97 SRS; +26 wins

When he left Phoenix:

2000-01 Suns: 100.3 ORtg (-2.7 rORtg); 98.0 DRtg (-5.0 rDRtg); +2.4 net rating; 2.63 SRS; 51-31 W/L
2001-02 Suns: 103.3 ORtg (-1.2 rORtg); 104.0 DRtg (-0.5 rDRtg); -0.7 net rating; -0.29 SRS; 36-46 W/L

Change: -3.0 ORtg (+1.5 rORtg); +6.0 DRtg (+4.5 rDRtg); -3.1 net rating; -2.92 SRS; -15 wins

Even when he was traded halfway through the season to Phoenix, the defense improved dramatically in his first full season:

1996-97 Suns: 109.3 ORtg (+2.6 rORtg); 108.6 DRtg (+1.9 rDRtg); +0.7 net rating; 0.21 SRS; 40-42 W/L
1997-98 Suns: 107.4 ORtg (+2.4 rORtg); 101.8 DRtg (-3.2 rDRtg); +5.6 net rating; 4.44 SRS; 56-26 W/L

Change: -1.9 ORtg (-0.2 rORtg); -6.8 DRtg (-5.1 rDRtg); +4.9 net rating; +4.23 SRS; +16 wins

Pretty much all his new teams got better while his old ones got worse throughout his career. But I'll stick to these since they're the most dramatic and in his prime.

In his prime, Jason Kidd was seemingly elevating middling and mediocre defenses into elite ones. Look at these stretches from 1998-2006 and 2000-2004. Lockout year wasn't included because the numbers were funny across the league that season. Phoenix was a top-ranked offense which wasn't the norm for a prime Jason Kidd team.

1998 Suns: 101.8 DRtg (6th) [-3.2 rDRtg]
2000 Suns: 99.0 DRtg (3rd) [-5.1 rDRtg]
2001 Suns: 98.0 DRtg (2nd) [-5.0 rDRtg]
2002 Nets: 99.5 DRtg (1st) [-5.0 rDRtg]
2003 Nets: 98.1 DRtg [1st] [-5.5 rDRtg]
2004 Nets: 98.0 DRtg [4th] [-4.9 rDRtg]
2005 Nets: 103.1 DRtg (7th) [-3.0 rDRtg]
2006 Nets: 102.4 DRtg (4th) [-3.8 rDRtg]

1998 + 2000-2006: -4.44 rDRtg
2000-2004: -5.1 rDRtg

That's pretty crazy. For comparison, Nash's Phoenix teams from 2005-2010 had an average of +6.7 rORtg.

Six straight seasons of Nash = +6.7 rORtg
Five straight seasons of Kidd = -5.1 rDRtg

And I think Nash had the better-supporting casts that were not only more talented but a better fit for his skill set. I wonder what Kidd could've done with an appreciable, equal level of help that plays to his strengths. Imagine if he was in Detroit instead of Chauncey.

Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Tayshaun Prince, and Rip Hamilton feels like the same ballpark as Amar'e Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and Quentin Richardson. Kidd probably would've had a few 60+ win, 7+ SRS seasons like Nash with that team. He adds to their strengths - defense - and what they lose in shooting they make up in playmaking.

--

Yes, there were injuries, younger players developing, and new players being added to Phoenix and New Jersey. But I think the defensive improvements all revolve around Jason Kidd.

Kenyon Martin was doing his thing before Kidd got there, blocking shots, accumulating steals, and playing starter minutes. Didn't help the defense all that much in 2000-01. Neither did he help Denver on defense all that much when he went there. Despite future DPOY Marcus Camby also being on the team.

Jason Collins and Richard Jefferson were rookies in 2002 who played 24.3 mpg and 18.3 mpg respectively. I'm sure they helped but I'm still leaning toward Kidd being the key to it all.

My feelings are largely the same about his defensive support in Phoenix. Marion was a nice addition like Kenyon but The Suns were strong on defense in '98 before he got there and disappointing in the years after Kidd left. I'm just not blown away.

--

Was Jason Kidd a generational defensive talent with an impact similar to elite defensive big men?

When I watch him, he feels in many respects like a 6'4" guard version of Garnett. While his positional qualities were elite (POA defense, getting around screens, closing out on shooters), it was his off-ball positioning, versatility, rotations, communication/quarterbacking, and defensive rebounding that set him apart. KG was a great rim protector and post-defender, but it was those other qualities I just mentioned that made him so incredible.

Naturally gifted athletes who elevated themselves on defense thanks to versatility and high basketball IQ.

[FrodoBaggins]

I'm sure there'll be posters that can't process the idea that a guard could have an impact on defense like elite bigs. For what it's worth, Alex Caruso is right up there with Rudy and Wemby in the one-number defensive metrics like D-EPM, D-DRIP, and D-LEBRON.

There have been several great defensive teams in NBA history that lacked appreciable rim protection. Some of these include the following:

- '90s Chicago Bulls (especially from 1996-1998)
- '90s Supersonics
- Big three Miami Heat (particularly the first two years)
- Late '60s/early-to-mid '70s Knicks
- '70s Celtics
- 2022 Warriors?
- Kidd's PHX and NJN teams?
- '80s MIlwaukee?

You don't think there can be exceptions? A player's impact is limited by the players they play with and the system they play in. Nash goes to Phoenix, is surrounded by great finishers, and gets to monopolize possession and run the offense. His offensive impact skyrockets. Goes through the roof.

Can't the same be true for the defensive end of the court?

How many teams are willing to acquire the personnel to run a system that maximizes the impact of a defensive PG? In the NBA, barely any. The 2023-24 Houston Cougars are doing it at the NCAA D1 level. They have the #1 defense in the country and its historically strong, ranking as one of the best of the 21st century. Its ten-man rotation includes the following:

LJ Cryer (6'1" Guard)
Jamal Shead (6'1" Guard)
Emanuel Sharp (6'3" Guard)
J'Wan Roberts (6'7" Forward)
Damian Dunn (6'5" Guard)
Ja'Vier Francis (6'8" Forward)
Mylik Wilson (6'3" Guard)
Joseph Tugler (6'7" Forward)
Terrance Arceneaux (6'5" Guard)
Ramon Walker (6'4" Guard)

They trap/blitz ball screens excessively hard, recover, switch, rotate, close out hard, and force a ridiculous amount of turnovers. Now, according to Basketball Reference's DBPM, Jamal Shead - a 6'1" PG - is the most impactful defender: +6.9 points per 100 possessions. Best in the entire country, above big rim-protecting centers and mobile long forwards.

I know it's college, but it's still interesting.

I don't see why a generational defensive guard couldn't have a defensive impact appreciable to an elite defensive big if he played with the right personnel and in the right system.

Watch on YouTube

[Texas Chuck]

Kidd's impact on defense and winning always gets lost because we have decided PG's should only impact games offensively and because he was never a great scorer he gets written off. Without question the most underrated player of the last 40 years. He just won and won and won and won. Look at all the franchises that had their best seasons ever or best in decades when he arrived and how they almost all immediately fell off a cliff when he left.

And Kidd didn't change teams via FA. He changed via trade. And with win now guys being a part of every single trade. So his new teams were giving up quality players to get him. It wasn't like he was just added for picks.

Dude was a basketball savant at both ends. But but the East sucks, but but he couldn't shoot(ironically he retired having made more 3 pointers than all but one other player lol. And he's still less than 10 behind KD who has been in the league forever as a 3 pt shooter.)

Players can impact winning in a variety of different ways. We should embrace that. Glad you made this OP.

[MrGoat]

He was very strong and bulky for a guard so he could easily slide up to guard bigger positions which made him a very versatile defender, it helped that his BBIQ was through the roof too. He was also the all time leading guard in rebounds when he retired (I suspect Westbrook may have passed him but I'd have to look that up, edit: Westbrook still needs 400+ rebounds to catch Kidd).

[cupcakesnake]

We've been seeing the return of the Kidd-style defensive point guard in this era with Alex Caruso, Derrick White, Marcus Smart, and now Jalen Suggs. Like Kidd, their defense isn't just the vanilla point of attack (Gary Payton or Avery Bradley hounding a ball handler). While some of these guys are good-to-excellent POA defenders, they're even better disrupting opponents offense with help defense. They can mess people up in the paint and give a pinch of rim protection, they can make it harder to make a lot of basic passes necessary to start the offense. Super versatile defenders that make you feel them all over the floor. They're also all a little bit bigger than the average point guard.

Kidd wasn't a super quick perimeter defender. His thing was being ridiculously strong and ridiculously smart. Kidd could defend a lot of matchups, but he could also roam and augment the defense from different spots. He knew when to time a double team, and when to sit in a passing lane in the way that caused the most trouble. He generated a lot of turnovers (which was crucial to ignite his transition offense).

Jason Kidd is on my short list for best defensive guards ever.

Size is really really helpful on defense, so it's pretty difficult for an elite defensive guard to have the same impact as an elite defensive big. Some guards do some genius things and leverage their superior mobility to close that gap. I do think there are exceptions to the rules, as the title of this topics states.

[nikster]

Kidd's impact on defense and winning always gets lost because we have decided PG's should only impact games offensively and because he was never a great scorer he gets written off. Without question the most underrated player of the last 40 years. He just won and won and won and won. Look at all the franchises that had their best seasons ever or best in decades when he arrived and how they almost all immediately fell off a cliff when he left.

And Kidd didn't change teams via FA. He changed via trade. And with win now guys being a part of every single trade. So his new teams were giving up quality players to get him. It wasn't like he was just added for picks.

Dude was a basketball savant at both ends. But but the East sucks, but but he couldn't shoot(ironically he retired having made more 3 pointers than all but one other player lol. And he's still less than 10 behind KD who has been in the league forever as a 3 pt shooter.)

Players can impact winning in a variety of different ways. We should embrace that. Glad you made this OP.

Yeah Kidds development as a shooter is one if the craziest transformations in the NBA. Imagine telling people early in his career he ends up that high on the all time 3 pointers list. Really helped him extend his career

[cupcakesnake]

Kidd's impact on defense and winning always gets lost because we have decided PG's should only impact games offensively and because he was never a great scorer he gets written off. Without question the most underrated player of the last 40 years. He just won and won and won and won. Look at all the franchises that had their best seasons ever or best in decades when he arrived and how they almost all immediately fell off a cliff when he left.

And Kidd didn't change teams via FA. He changed via trade. And with win now guys being a part of every single trade. So his new teams were giving up quality players to get him. It wasn't like he was just added for picks.

Dude was a basketball savant at both ends. But but the East sucks, but but he couldn't shoot(ironically he retired having made more 3 pointers than all but one other player lol. And he's still less than 10 behind KD who has been in the league forever as a 3 pt shooter.)

Players can impact winning in a variety of different ways. We should embrace that. Glad you made this OP.

Yeah Kidds development as a shooter is one if the craziest transformations in the NBA. Imagine telling people early in his career he ends up that high on the all time 3 pointers list. Really helped him extend his career

I think the "crazy transformation" is more that Kidd's role changed and he was able to strictly take catch & shoot threes. Kidd always hovered around average in terms of percentages. The problem with him was that he was really uncomfortable shooting threes off the dribble, which wasn't great for a ball handling guard expected to initate halfcourt offense.

As his career went on, he got to play with guys who initate more offense, and increase his catch & shoot looks. Started with Vince Carter coming to New Jersey, but really took off once he went to Dallas and not only got to play with Dirk, but often got paired with more aggressive scoring guards in the backcourt (Jason Terry).

I'm not saying he didn't improve as a shooter. He definitely did. But I think the shot quality is the bigger change. If Jason Kidd had been playing with another offensive hub for most of his career, we wouldn't have noticed as much that he sucked at off-the-dribble threes.

[nikster]

Kidd's impact on defense and winning always gets lost because we have decided PG's should only impact games offensively and because he was never a great scorer he gets written off. Without question the most underrated player of the last 40 years. He just won and won and won and won. Look at all the franchises that had their best seasons ever or best in decades when he arrived and how they almost all immediately fell off a cliff when he left.

And Kidd didn't change teams via FA. He changed via trade. And with win now guys being a part of every single trade. So his new teams were giving up quality players to get him. It wasn't like he was just added for picks.

Dude was a basketball savant at both ends. But but the East sucks, but but he couldn't shoot(ironically he retired having made more 3 pointers than all but one other player lol. And he's still less than 10 behind KD who has been in the league forever as a 3 pt shooter.)

Players can impact winning in a variety of different ways. We should embrace that. Glad you made this OP.

Yeah Kidds development as a shooter is one if the craziest transformations in the NBA. Imagine telling people early in his career he ends up that high on the all time 3 pointers list. Really helped him extend his career

I think the "crazy transformation" is more that Kidd's role changed and he was able to strictly take catch & shoot threes. Kidd always hovered around average in terms of percentages. The problem with him was that he was really uncomfortable shooting threes off the dribble, which wasn't great for a ball handling guard expected to initate halfcourt offense.

As his career went on, he got to play with guys who initate more offense, and increase his catch & shoot looks. Started with Vince Carter coming to New Jersey, but really took off once he went to Dallas and not only got to play with Dirk, but often got paired with more aggressive scoring guards in the backcourt (Jason Terry).

I'm not saying he didn't improve as a shooter. He definitely did. But I think the shot quality is the bigger change. If Jason Kidd had been playing with another offensive hub for most of his career, we wouldn't have noticed as much that he sucked at off-the-dribble threes.

Yeah that's a good point, the change in role had a big impact. But he wasn't showing signs of much shooting early on tho generally tho, free throws below 70% in college and his first 3 nba seasons, about 33% from 3 in college and first few nba seasons.

[picc]

Yeah, i’ve checked into this extensively and Kidd is the best defensive point of all time imo. He did seemingly have big man level impact.

However, there’s a large range of big man level impact. For instance, when I rewatched the Nets finals seasons, Kenyon Martin still looked like the most important defender on the team. KM was super impactful, but Kidd wasnt TOO far behind. Still landing him comfortably in big level defense, under the understanding that not every big has high level impact but on average will still surpass a guard or wing player if they are just decent. Good post though, his defense was extraordinary at the time.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Imagine if the Spurs had traded Tony for him, as was rumored.
No regrets as a Spurs fan obviously, things worked out pretty well for us, but him & Duncan on defense would have been ridiculous, and Kidd & Manu on offense would have been crazy fun.

[ChipotleWest]

Most of the great point guards are offensive point guards since Kidd. Jrue Holiday is one I can think of that's fairy good on both sides (really good at defense) but during the playoffs he tends to get exposed on offense. CP3 was probably the closest think to Kidd on defense and also great at scoring. Unfortunately for whatever reason maybe a combo of himself being the problem and/or the team being the problem he never won a ring and is unlikely to. Dejountae Murray is also solid on both sides of the ball, he's not in the Kidd/CP3/Holiday category of great though but pretty good.

Even Kidd himself was close to not winning a ring until he was traded back to Dallas and was 38 years old where they won in 2011.

[oldncreaky]

Shout out to Sidney Moncrief who pretty much defined what a defensive-oriented guard was prior to Gary Payton. Sid the Kid's career was severely impacted by a knee injury in an era when few players ever came back 100% from knee problems. But before the knee injury:

- 2 time DPOY
- 4 time 1st team all-NBA Defence
- 5 years in the top 10 for MVP votes

[Yoshun]

I love this thread, a huge Kidd fan.

I think guards and wings can be very impactful on the defensive end. However, I think it's easier to make up for a below average defense in the back court than it is a below average defense in the front court, if that makes sense. If given a choice, I'd rather have the good defensive front court/below average defensive back court than the below average front court/good back court.

[ChipotleWest]

GS really had the perfect back court for a team that the pg was just ok on defense and lacking in size. Klay was great defensively in his prime and could also knock down shots.

[docholliday99]

I haven't really delved into the numbers but wouldn't Smart and the guy that helped Kidd early, Payton, belong in this thread? 2 guards that won DPOY.

[Dan1970]

It sucks that Cuban didn't give the Mavericks a second chance at a championship. The 2011 team was kryptonite against Lebron and the Heat. I would have leave to see that team try to defend their championship.

[ChipotleWest]

I haven't really delved into the numbers but wouldn't Smart and the guy that helped Kidd early, Payton, belong in this thread? 2 guards that won DPOY.

Smart's pretty much all defense and very little offense. But yes great defending point guard.

Gary Payton was a 2 way beast, but never teamed with Kidd?

[docholliday99]

I haven't really delved into the numbers but wouldn't Smart and the guy that helped Kidd early, Payton, belong in this thread? 2 guards that won DPOY.

Smart's pretty much all defense and very little offense. But yes great defending point guard.

Gary Payton was a 2 way beast, but never teamed with Kidd?

In addition, All-Star point guard Jason Kidd has referred to Payton as a "mentor" for the way he treated Kidd growing up in the same neighborhood of Oakland.

“Jason grew up just playing on the basketball courts; he didn’t know nothing about going to playgrounds where a lot of guys are going to talk trash to him, challenge his manhood and things like that,” Payton said yesterday, recalling his Oakland playground days with Kidd. “We started going to … [parks] where people are really rough, play physical basketball and talk a lot of smack.

https://nypost.com/2003/04/19/payton-kidd-grew-up-on-playgrounds/

Payton and his dad were REALLY tough on Kidd, they felt he had something special - in some article I had read

[zimpy27]

Kidd was like if Caruso was one of the best passers in the league and could lead an offense.

[CometGM]

Kidd's impact on defense and winning always gets lost because we have decided PG's should only impact games offensively and because he was never a great scorer he gets written off. Without question the most underrated player of the last 40 years. He just won and won and won and won. Look at all the franchises that had their best seasons ever or best in decades when he arrived and how they almost all immediately fell off a cliff when he left.

And Kidd didn't change teams via FA. He changed via trade. And with win now guys being a part of every single trade. So his new teams were giving up quality players to get him. It wasn't like he was just added for picks.

Dude was a basketball savant at both ends. But but the East sucks, but but he couldn't shoot(ironically he retired having made more 3 pointers than all but one other player lol. And he's still less than 10 behind KD who has been in the league forever as a 3 pt shooter.)

Players can impact winning in a variety of different ways. We should embrace that. Glad you made this OP.

I definitely agree Kidd gets underrated. He's one of the most impactful not only guards, but players ever.
Every team he was traded to got better, even as he got much older.

Great example is his one year stint with the Knicks in 12-13. He was already 39-40 years old. Knicks made it to the 2nd round.
Look at the Knicks record from 2001-2020. Horrible years before and after. It's no coincidence.