Nash’s Goat lvl offense?

Lebronnygoat · Post #1 » by **Lebronnygoat** » Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:03 pm

Why is Nash considered all time for Goat offense?

I do see how his “engineering” of top offenses of all time is used for him, but let’s examine those offenses and how Nash can be a goat lvl offensive player ALL TIME.

His first four years in the league are just nothing but something is very important
With Nash missing over 25 games, the Mavericks still were a top 7 offense in the world.
Nash’s statline for the year was 9-5-2 27 mpg 60%ts
Meanwhile Dirk in his 2nd year was giving 18-3-7, 56%, Finley 23-5-6 52%

Nash has played with Dirk, Finley, Walker, Jamison and Juwan Howard in one year, the year before having Finley, Dirk, Van Exel, and Howard, Finley, Dirk in 2002. Then his first year with the suns he has Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudemarie, Richardson, Joe Johnson and Jim Jackson for half the year, best O in the league. Next year loses Amare and Barbosa gets older/better and steps up. 2nd best O in the league (impressive on Nash’s part). Then the next two years the stick with the same squad with Amare healthy and getting better, alternating 1st and 2nd best O’s. Getting Barnes in 08, Shaq and Jason rich in 09 but losing Marion in 09 and raja misses 60 games, Amare 25, Rich 25. 2nd best O. 2010 Suns become the 1st O with a 5 out offense I presume with adding Frye.

In 2004 the Mavs peaked as the goat offense but how come much of that is accredited to Nash but not Dirk, Finley, Walker, Jamison and Howard? I didn’t really watch the season, but he doesn’t even get an award that season, not even nominated for anything. Even Dirk gets MVP votes.
Not to mention, Nash completely choked that playoffs, absolutely horrible.
From an individual production and impact on the team, and sustained success at it, I don’t see Nash as many do, maybe I can get some knowledge though on why I think wrong. Thoughts?

Colbinii · Post #2 » by **Colbinii** » Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:11 pm

Lebronnygoat wrote:In 2004 the Mavs peaked as the goat offense but how come much of that is accredited to Nash but not Dirk, Finley, Walker, Jamison and Howard? I didn’t really watch the season, but he doesn’t even get an award that season, not even nominated for anything. Even Dirk gets MVP votes.

Is it attributed to Nash? I feel like many people here [myself included] rave about Dirk's offensive brilliance throughout his prime.

I think Dallas Nash is a notch or two below Phoenix Nash as a player and in how he could put his hands on the game.

migya · Post #3 » by **migya** » Tue Jun 25, 2024 4:29 pm

Nash did great, probably compares well to a number of players/PGs alltime with very good talent around him. He had the right coaches, particularly D'Antoni to maximise his abilities. He did great in his second stint in Phoenix, was the brains of the well put together body, but the rest of his career shows the reality of his impact.

ShotCreator · Post #4 » by **ShotCreator** » Tue Jun 25, 2024 5:19 pm

Nash's body was not right in Dallas. That's not prime Nash.

The whole reason Cuban didn't re-sign him is because of his back.

Then he goes to Phoenix, where they had an amazing athletic trainer who got him into shape and kept him and a bunch of older guys healthy.

They managed to get an all-star season out of a version of Shaq that was barely playable for other teams.

Nash's body broke down literally immediately upon leaving PHX and his career was over.

Spoiler:

Now as far as what he did in Phoenix. They were a top 2 or 3 RS and PS offense of all-time with Nash and Marion as the only constants.

And after Marion and D'Antoni left they were the #1 offense(+7.8 offense) and pushed the 2010 Champ Lakers pretty hard in a WCF run. And that's Nash clearly past his athletic peak.

lessthanjake · Post #5 » by **lessthanjake** » Tue Jun 25, 2024 6:10 pm

Lebronnygoat wrote:Why is Nash considered all time for Goat offense?

I do see how his “engineering” of top offenses of all time is used for him, but let’s examine those offenses and how Nash can be a goat lvl offensive player ALL TIME.

His first four years in the league are just nothing but something is very important
With Nash missing over 25 games, the Mavericks still were a top 7 offense in the world.
Nash’s statline for the year was 9-5-2 27 mpg 60%ts
Meanwhile Dirk in his 2nd year was giving 18-3-7, 56%, Finley 23-5-6 52%

Nash has played with Dirk, Finley, Walker, Jamison and Juwan Howard in one year, the year before having Finley, Dirk, Van Exel, and Howard, Finley, Dirk in 2002. Then his first year with the suns he has Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudemarie, Richardson, Joe Johnson and Jim Jackson for half the year, best O in the league. Next year loses Amare and Barbosa gets older/better and steps up. 2nd best O in the league (impressive on Nash’s part). Then the next two years the stick with the same squad with Amare healthy and getting better, alternating 1st and 2nd best O’s. Getting Barnes in 08, Shaq and Jason rich in 09 but losing Marion in 09 and raja misses 60 games, Amare 25, Rich 25. 2nd best O. 2010 Suns become the 1st O with a 5 out offense I presume with adding Frye.

In 2004 the Mavs peaked as the goat offense but how come much of that is accredited to Nash but not Dirk, Finley, Walker, Jamison and Howard? I didn’t really watch the season, but he doesn’t even get an award that season, not even nominated for anything. Even Dirk gets MVP votes.
Not to mention, Nash completely choked that playoffs, absolutely horrible.
From an individual production and impact on the team, and sustained success at it, I don’t see Nash as many do, maybe I can get some knowledge though on why I think wrong. Thoughts?

It's mostly about what he did in Phoenix, where the Suns had some of the best offenses (both RS and playoffs) in the history of the NBA, as measured by rORTG. And anyone who watched those teams knows who was driving that. The Dallas stuff is helpful too since those offenses were amazing as well (especially the 2004 team in the regular season), but obviously we all know that Nash was driving that less than he was in Phoenix, since he was more of a sidekick to Dirk. The Nash-led offenses in Phoenix were basically unstoppable with him on the floor, both in the regular season and in the playoffs. You won't find anyone with as good of on-court rORTGs over a significant time period as Nash had. Of course, the caveat to all this is that he had offensively slanted rosters, but he put together great offense even in the year they didn't have Amare, and in later years where the Suns really weren't as offensively slanted. It's also no surprise that this is true if you watched him at the time--I thought he was the best offensive player I'd ever seen well before I knew about rORTGs or anything like that. He just produced good shots for his team at a rate well beyond what anyone else was doing, while also being perhaps the best pure shooter in league history prior to Steph.

1993Playoffs · Post #6 » by **1993Playoffs** » Tue Jun 25, 2024 6:42 pm

I don’t have him on the GOAT tier , more in line with the Kobe’s and Dirks imo. Great shooter and passer though

Dr Positivity · Post #7 » by **Dr Positivity** » Tue Jun 25, 2024 9:17 pm

I dislike using team offenses to call Nash GOAT on offense because it's obvious that D'Antoni is an offensive coach and Amare is an offense/defense trade off guy, and likewise teams like 04 Mavs are all offense. However his skillset is great on offense.