Steph Kidd vs Draymond Nowitzki

[rand]

Stephen Kidd and Draymond Nowitzki are hybrids which take only the better part from each player at their peak. Which would you take for 2025?

[ardee]

Draymond Nowitzki is like Jokic with DPoY defense. Literally the GOAT peak by a good margin, and easily the pick here.

[wafflzgod]

Draymond Nowitzki is like Jokic with DPoY defense. Literally the GOAT peak by a good margin, and easily the pick here.

Steph with Kidd's passing (maybe a top 5 passer ever) would be by far the best offensive player ever. Add Kidd's defense (arguably the best guard defender ever?), I think that would also be easily the GOAT player.

Also, idk if I really agree that Draymond Nowitzki would be like Jokic on offense. Draymond is an amazing passer, but part of what puts Jokic in that top echelon of all-time offense is that he is arguably the single best passer ever. This player would be a better jumpshooter than Jokic, but wouldn't be quite as good as a post-up player or have the floater of Jokic. Obviously a lesser offensive player than Jokic with Draymond's defense (top 10 ever level) would still be the best player ever though, but I don't think it would be clear of Steph-Kidd

[DirtyDez]

Dirk Green is more effective but Jason Curry would more exciting to watch.

[mattg]

Draymond Nowitzki is like Jokic with DPoY defense. Literally the GOAT peak by a good margin, and easily the pick here.

Steph with Kidd's passing (maybe a top 5 passer ever) would be by far the best offensive player ever. Add Kidd's defense (arguably the best guard defender ever?), I think that would also be easily the GOAT player.

Also, idk if I really agree that Draymond Nowitzki would be like Jokic on offense. Draymond is an amazing passer, but part of what puts Jokic in that top echelon of all-time offense is that he is arguably the single best passer ever. This player would be a better jumpshooter than Jokic, but wouldn't be quite as good as a post-up player or have the floater of Jokic. Obviously a lesser offensive player than Jokic with Draymond's defense (top 10 ever level) would still be the best player ever though, but I don't think it would be clear of Steph-Kidd

I don't think you're accounting for how additive and amplifying Draymond and Dirk's skillsets are with each other. Yeah improving Curry's playmaking/passing/defense is wonderful...but those improvements don't drastically change how he would play or actually improve a significant weakness or something.

On the other hand, Draymond/Dirk is a totally different scenario. Think how effective Green was as a screener/handoff guy offensively as a really poor scorer. Now we get to make him into a huge 7 footer who is an elite shooter from everywhere? Has elite isolation and post scoring ability too to pair with the playmaking Draymond has? Dirk Green with any all star caliber on-ball guard is more dynamic offensively than Steph Kidd with whatever roll man you're going to find. 7 foot 250lbs with Draymond's mobility, playmaking style, elite shooting, post play, ISO scoring, DPOY defense, strong defensive rebounding...jesus.

[penbeast0]

You forgot rebounding as Kidd is also one of the candidates for GOAT rebounding guard as well as arguably the GOAT defensive guard and probably an upgrade on Steph as a open court playmaker.

Steph is just a bigger outlier as a shooter and on/off ball creative playmaker and Kidd as a defensive/rebounding PG than either Dirk or Draymond as great as the big guys are. Combine them and it should be the more dynamic and impactful player, at least in the modern 3 point era.

[tsherkin]

You forgot rebounding as Kidd is also one of the candidates for GOAT rebounding guard as well as arguably the GOAT defensive guard and probably an upgrade on Steph as a open court playmaker.

Steph is just a bigger outlier as a shooter and on/off ball creative playmaker and Kidd as a defensive/rebounding PG than either Dirk or Draymond as great as the big guys are. Combine them and it should be the more dynamic and impactful player, at least in the modern 3 point era.

I think this assumes Kidd's D translates with more PnR and ball movement and less straight up isolation, though. Which is at least somewhat of a factor. And also does insufficient justice to Dirk's scoring ability, especially with what would likely be better spacing around him. And likewise Dirk's improved offensivd impact if he was also a Draymond-level passer and defender.

I believe Draymond Nowitzki would be a higher-impact guy.

[penbeast0]

I think this assumes Kidd's D translates with more PnR and ball movement and less straight up isolation, though. Which is at least somewhat of a factor. And also does insufficient justice to Dirk's scoring ability, especially with what would likely be better spacing around him. And likewise Dirk's improved offensivd impact if he was also a Draymond-level passer and defender.

I believe Draymond Nowitzki would be a higher-impact guy.

I don't think Kidd's primary impact was as a man defender so much as a team defender plus the extra rebounding (which may be nerfed by today's rebounding schemes plus the fact that with Curry's range, he won't be as close to the basket). But, it's a point on which I could easily be convinced; not a mountain I'm willing to die on.

I am pretty sure that Steph is a bigger outlier in terms of shooting range and efficiency than Dirk and that Kidd is a bigger outlier in terms of both defensive impact and rebounding relative to their peers at PG. Whether that is enough to make up for a bigger defensive role for PFs and similar factors is where the interesting analysis comes.

[B-Mitch 30]

Not really the point of this exercise, but going to have to deduct points from Green/Dirk because of the former's penchant for stupid technicals and flagrants.

[SpreeS]

Dirk Green hybrid would be something similar to KG on defence, but not that good rebounder. On offensive end - Jokic, but w/o post moves and worse passer/playmaker.

Curry/Kidd hybrid is interesting. Its like Jordan with better passing and all time best shooting. Add to Curry more size and strength could open for him way more possibilities on offensive end.

I can imagine Dirk/Green on offence, b/c we have similar players in reality. Bigger/stronger Curry with better passing and BBIQ….Its personage from fairy tale books.

[ardee]

Draymond Nowitzki is like Jokic with DPoY defense. Literally the GOAT peak by a good margin, and easily the pick here.

Steph with Kidd's passing (maybe a top 5 passer ever) would be by far the best offensive player ever. Add Kidd's defense (arguably the best guard defender ever?), I think that would also be easily the GOAT player.

Also, idk if I really agree that Draymond Nowitzki would be like Jokic on offense. Draymond is an amazing passer, but part of what puts Jokic in that top echelon of all-time offense is that he is arguably the single best passer ever. This player would be a better jumpshooter than Jokic, but wouldn't be quite as good as a post-up player or have the floater of Jokic. Obviously a lesser offensive player than Jokic with Draymond's defense (top 10 ever level) would still be the best player ever though, but I don't think it would be clear of Steph-Kidd

Fair on the Jokic thing, though I think it'd be closer than you think, Dirk would likely come pretty close to Jokic's volume/efficiency combo in the modern league.

As for Steph/Kidd, I don't think Kidd's passing adds that much to Steph's offensive game, who is already an elite elite playmaker. Defense, sure, but I don't think guard defense is the determining factor here.

[tsherkin]

I don't think Kidd's primary impact was as a man defender so much as a team defender plus the extra rebounding (which may be nerfed by today's rebounding schemes plus the fact that with Curry's range, he won't be as close to the basket). But, it's a point on which I could easily be convinced; not a mountain I'm willing to die on.

I don't necessarily agree, but I hear where you're coming from. Kidd was a particularly effective defender in his era and he did it in more ways than just man-on defense, with that I can certainly agree. I think my point was more that his efficacy as a defender gets somewhat lost in this era because he'd spend more time defending the PnR and less time helping, because he's at the POA, you know? Like, the 2003 Nets were remarkable and it was largely because of him, despite his bleh scoring, and it was through rebounding, playmaking and defense with which he accomplished that. Much to respect about him in his day. I just think that it's harder and harder for a 6'4 guard to exert that sort of palpable impact on defense with modern schemes and spacing.

I am pretty sure that Steph is a bigger outlier in terms of shooting range and efficiency than Dirk and that Kidd is a bigger outlier in terms of both defensive impact and rebounding relative to their peers at PG. Whether that is enough to make up for a bigger defensive role for PFs and similar factors is where the interesting analysis comes.

Mmm.

Steph's definitely more of an efficiency outlier in the RS, that's for certain. I don't know that it's actually enough to overcome what you'd get with 26 ppg from Dirk coupled to the rim pressure he exerted and the fouls he drew, but it's an interesting conversation to entertain, for sure.

[Wallace_Wallace]

Draymond Nowitzki would be a GOAT, anchor on offense and defense. But the thing is, you put any two polar opposite players together, they all sound like aliens.

For example:
Peja Kirilenko (Peja Stojakovic/ Andrei Kirilenko)
Michael Porter Bowen (MPJ/Bruce Bowen)
Jahlil Chandler (Jahlil Okafor/Tyson Chandler)

I didn't combine any GOAT level players and they all sound like monstars already. If I do opposites such as Ty Yao; he would be insane (Ty Lawson/Yao Ming)

[pillwenney]

There's a degree to which Steph and Kidd's offensive skills butt heads. At a given moment, are you missing out on Kidd's on-ball playmaking or the chaos Steph creates off the ball? It's a good problem to have, but in exercises like this, that level of hair-splitting seems relevant.

With that said, I think that's probably still the choice I'd make. Draymond's passing is certainly an upgrade for Dirk, but that's also only so impactful. Dirk had elite offenses run through him despite being a mediocre passer because his spacing was just that impactful.

[tsherkin]

With that said, I think that's probably still the choice I'd make. Draymond's passing is certainly an upgrade for Dirk, but that's also only so impactful. Dirk had elite offenses run through him despite being a mediocre passer because his spacing was just that impactful.

He didn't have sticky hands, he was a SUUUUUPER low-turnover guy, and he was a 108 TS+ guy on average, seven seasons of 110 or better. 116 and 115 in 01 and 02. He was a MONSTER relative to the league environment of the time.

[zimpy27]

Peak Draymond Nowitzki per 100
38pts at 112TS+, 13rebs, 11asts, 3stls, 2blks, 3 Ast/TO

Peak Steph Kidd per 100
42pts at 124TS+, 11rebs, 15asts, 3stls, 0.5blks, 3 Ast/TO

Yeak Kidd Curry is the beast on offense, probably need to be him.

[Tomtolbert]

Draymond Nowitzki. Adding Draymond's passing to Dirk, and then obviously his great defense, is too much to pass up. It's also impacted by the physical attributes, ie adding a few inches to Draymond's already DPOY caliber defense.

[Cavsfansince84]

The main thing that stands out to me about Steph Kidd other than the defense is Kidd came into the league at a big 6-3/4 215. So if you just give Kidd Steph's shooting(even closer to the rim where Steph's touch is really good) he's probably a top 2 offensive player for 15 years and a top def guard for 10+ years. The degree to which that player would warp the off side of the court is probably bigger than just giving Dirk slightly more athleticism and being a dpoy candidate. The passing isn't that relevant imo because Dirk would still function in a similar way on offense. Draymond's passing utility comes from him being used in a very different way while also not trying to score unless he's wide open. Steph Kidd though is just going to be putting up 30-33ppg on even higher rts for ~ 15 years and also becomes much harder to stop in the playoffs with his physicality. Likely goat scorer while being a great passer.

[tsherkin]

Peak Draymond Nowitzki per 100
38pts at 112TS+, 13rebs, 11asts, 3stls, 2blks, 3 Ast/TO

Peak Steph Kidd per 100
42pts at 124TS+, 11rebs, 15asts, 3stls, 0.5blks, 3 Ast/TO

Yeak Kidd Curry is the beast on offense, probably need to be him.

Dirk was an 8.4% TOV guy, for what it's worth, and that was even when he was a 28-30% USG guy. I think you're probably underselling his possession economy a little here.

[zimpy27]

Peak Draymond Nowitzki per 100
38pts at 112TS+, 13rebs, 11asts, 3stls, 2blks, 3 Ast/TO

Peak Steph Kidd per 100
42pts at 124TS+, 11rebs, 15asts, 3stls, 0.5blks, 3 Ast/TO

Yeak Kidd Curry is the beast on offense, probably need to be him.

Dirk was an 8.4% TOV guy, for what it's worth, and that was even when he was a 28-30% USG guy. I think you're probably underselling his possession economy a little here.

I was taking the best assist to turnover ratio from one of the players..