Jordan vs Shaquille O'Neal

[Lebronnygoat]

Why is Jordan over Shaq, all time?
In terms of all time impact (this is an all time debate), Shaq has 14 years of elite play (93-06), meanwhile, Jordan has 11 (85, 87-93, 96-98). Shaq's gravity clears Jordan, off the ball and on the ball, creating a lot of advantages for his teammates to exploit. I don't know if Jordan is the creator Shaq is, but he does hold ball handling and setting the table duties, though it's not at a volume you'd think as he played fairly off ball and Pippen was a point forward and playing within the OP triangle. Shaq's off ball attention allows for backdoor cuts, to be fronted by the ball handler's man which allows for an open shot, or beating his guy down in the post so much help is needed allowing for an opening. He also passes at great level, finds cutters, open guys beyond the arc, ect. Jordan probably doesn't even have the volume Shaq does on the ball, and doesn't create as much as Shaq or cause a defense to react as nearly as much as Shaq does. As a defender, Shaq clearly has the defensive edge, this topic isn't really close for discussion. Scoring isn't as big of a gap, however. From 1995 - 2004, Shaq is a 29.7 IA PP75 on +5.5rTS. Come Playoff time, Shaq is basically the same numbers if you adjust towards defense, while Jordan from 1988 to 1998, is 32.0 IA PP75 on +4.7, and come playoff time his pts improve to 35.0, on +4.4rTS. Interestingly enough, it seems Shaq is better vs elite defenses (-4rDRTG or better), as he is 27ppg (non adjusted) on +7.8rTS. Meanwhile, Jordan is 30.5 on +2.8rTS... I believe that Shaq is disallowing more points on defense, and at a rate, that covers the gap we see in the scoring numbers. Ntm, these efficiency stats probably hurt Shaq the most, considering there's multiple occasions a series, where he misses but puts it back right afterwards, so technically he's not wasting possessions. This can be applied to other big men, but Shaq probably does it near the most, whereas Jordan isn't a big man, and so it's very uncommon for him comparatively. Sure, Shaq misses free throws, but he hits them at a rate to where it is conducive to a high level offense, and puts the other team into foul trouble and forces a deeper bench to play. Shaq is the better conference finals, and finals performer imo too.

Thoughts?

[One_and_Done]

I do find myself wondering this at times. The answe seems to be that the Bulls beat Shaq most of the time, but was that really because of Jordan or was his team just better.

[tsherkin]

I do find myself wondering this at times. The answe seems to be that the Bulls beat Shaq most of the time, but was that really because of Jordan or was his team just better.

Team vs. Team is usually related to team.

But depending on which season you're talking about, Jordan's scoring was fairly similar to Shaq in terms of efficiency and foul pressure, and he wasn't an incompetent wad at the line, so I think it would be challenging to make a pro-Shaq offensive argument. Then you have to wonder if he was a superior defender, which I doubt strongly given his lazy proclivities.

[Doug_12]

Apart from the above, competition at his position also mattered: In the first half of his career, Hakeem was mostly considered to be the better player and Robinson was also not out of question. It took around '98 when he became clearly the best center in the league and though he held this title till like '06, by '04 it was clear that he is not the best player in the league.

So all in all: in the earlier phase of his career he was impactful, but his competition was too good. By the time this changed, he relatively quickly became not impactful enough. He had maybe 5-6 seasons, when he was clearly the best player in the league. In Jordan's case it's like 9 or 10.

[Cavsfansince84]

In MJ's favor(and I'm not the sort who just dismisses any comparison or argument most of the time)
MJ 5 mvps Shaq 1
MJ 6 rings Shaq 4
Shaq has a ton of injuries and missed games in his prime MJ has just 86
Shaq's teams got swept probably more times than any other top 15 player
Shaq's leadership and work ethic/def effort are pretty questionable

So maybe there's an argument for Shaq but he just has weaknesses that need to be factored in

[Special_Puppy]

There's a very big gap in their stats. Traditional and advanced. https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=jordami01&p1yrfrom=1985&p1yrto=1995&player_id2=onealsh01&p2yrfrom=1994&p2yrto=2004

[Lebronnygoat]

Apart from the above, competition at his position also mattered: In the first half of his career, Hakeem was mostly considered to be the better player and Robinson was also not out of question. It took around '98 when he became clearly the best center in the league and though he held this title till like '06, by '04 it was clear that he is not the best player in the league.

So all in all: in the earlier phase of his career he was impactful, but his competition was too good. By the time this changed, he relatively quickly became not impactful enough. He had maybe 5-6 seasons, when he was clearly the best player in the league. In Jordan's case it's like 9 or 10.

Jordan does not have 9 or 10. It took Jordan until 1989 to become the clear cut best player. If Magic never got hurt in 1989 and played as good as he did vs the Pistons in the finals as he did the year prior, no way would MJ have “clear cut best player” appreciation. Hakeem was arguably better than Jordan in 1993, 1997, and Shaq was better in 1998. That’s only 5 years. Shaq became the clear cut best around the same time MJ did, but I don’t really think that is a good talking point regardless.

[Lebronnygoat]

There's a very big gap in their stats. Traditional and advanced. https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=jordami01&p1yrfrom=1985&p1yrto=1995&player_id2=onealsh01&p2yrfrom=1994&p2yrto=2004

You can pull up stathead and compare their stats like this to see who has more green boxes filled with other players yet they aren’t better. Watch the game and look at meaningful stats to determine who impacts the court more.

[One_and_Done]

I do find myself wondering this at times. The answe seems to be that the Bulls beat Shaq most of the time, but was that really because of Jordan or was his team just better.

Team vs. Team is usually related to team.

But depending on which season you're talking about, Jordan's scoring was fairly similar to Shaq in terms of efficiency and foul pressure, and he wasn't an incompetent wad at the line, so I think it would be challenging to make a pro-Shaq offensive argument. Then you have to wonder if he was a superior defender, which I doubt strongly given his lazy proclivities.

Offense/defense analysis can be very misleading. I'm not saying it is here, but we should be wary of thinking of those as 2 equally weighted halves that need to be balanced.

[tsherkin]

I do find myself wondering this at times. The answe seems to be that the Bulls beat Shaq most of the time, but was that really because of Jordan or was his team just better.

Team vs. Team is usually related to team.

But depending on which season you're talking about, Jordan's scoring was fairly similar to Shaq in terms of efficiency and foul pressure, and he wasn't an incompetent wad at the line, so I think it would be challenging to make a pro-Shaq offensive argument. Then you have to wonder if he was a superior defender, which I doubt strongly given his lazy proclivities.

Offense/defense analysis can be very misleading. I'm not saying it is here, but we should be wary of thinking of those as 2 equally weighted halves that need to be balanced.

Sure?

But in this case, since Shaq doesn't have a defensive advantage and prime MJ doesn't lose out to Shaq on O, it doesn't really matter, does it?

[Doug_12]

Apart from the above, competition at his position also mattered: In the first half of his career, Hakeem was mostly considered to be the better player and Robinson was also not out of question. It took around '98 when he became clearly the best center in the league and though he held this title till like '06, by '04 it was clear that he is not the best player in the league.

So all in all: in the earlier phase of his career he was impactful, but his competition was too good. By the time this changed, he relatively quickly became not impactful enough. He had maybe 5-6 seasons, when he was clearly the best player in the league. In Jordan's case it's like 9 or 10.

Jordan does not have 9 or 10. It took Jordan until 1989 to become the clear cut best player. If Magic never got hurt in 1989 and played as good as he did vs the Pistons in the finals as he did the year prior, no way would MJ have “clear cut best player” appreciation. Hakeem was arguably better than Jordan in 1993, 1997, and Shaq was better in 1998. That’s only 5 years. Shaq became the clear cut best around the same time MJ did, but I don’t really think that is a good talking point regardless.

MJ was already the league leader in BPM and VORP while putting up an astounding 37.1 ppg w/ +2.8 rTS in '86-87. That's the start of his prime for me. Till '97-98 there are 10 seasons (except the '93-95' period), out of which he lead the league in the above mentioned advanced metrics in 9 seasons and won the ring in 6. Even if there can be years in this period where someone can be argued to be better based on specific criteria, this level of dominance in a 10 year period is nothing that Shaq has ever done.

[Lebronnygoat]

Apart from the above, competition at his position also mattered: In the first half of his career, Hakeem was mostly considered to be the better player and Robinson was also not out of question. It took around '98 when he became clearly the best center in the league and though he held this title till like '06, by '04 it was clear that he is not the best player in the league.

So all in all: in the earlier phase of his career he was impactful, but his competition was too good. By the time this changed, he relatively quickly became not impactful enough. He had maybe 5-6 seasons, when he was clearly the best player in the league. In Jordan's case it's like 9 or 10.

Jordan does not have 9 or 10. It took Jordan until 1989 to become the clear cut best player. If Magic never got hurt in 1989 and played as good as he did vs the Pistons in the finals as he did the year prior, no way would MJ have “clear cut best player” appreciation. Hakeem was arguably better than Jordan in 1993, 1997, and Shaq was better in 1998. That’s only 5 years. Shaq became the clear cut best around the same time MJ did, but I don’t really think that is a good talking point regardless.

MJ was already the league leader in BPM and VORP while putting up an astounding 37.1 ppg w/ +2.8 rTS in '86-87. That's the start of his prime for me. Till '97-98 there are 10 seasons (except the '93-95' period), out of which he lead the league in the above mentioned advanced metrics in 9 seasons and won the ring in 6. Even if there can be years in this period where someone can be argued to be better based on specific criteria, this level of dominance in a 10 year period is nothing that Shaq has ever done.

Can you explain to me how BPM or VORP means you're a better player? VORP says 2023 Curry wasn't even a top 10 player. BPM & VORP says Butler was a top 4 player in 2023. There's a lot of other players these advanced stats have over other guys who aren't better players. You can't blame the stats, as they're just blindly calculating box score stats with certain stats meaning more than others to come up with an end all be all number.

[OhayoKD]

Team vs. Team is usually related to team.

But depending on which season you're talking about, Jordan's scoring was fairly similar to Shaq in terms of efficiency and foul pressure, and he wasn't an incompetent wad at the line, so I think it would be challenging to make a pro-Shaq offensive argument. Then you have to wonder if he was a superior defender, which I doubt strongly given his lazy proclivities.

Offense/defense analysis can be very misleading. I'm not saying it is here, but we should be wary of thinking of those as 2 equally weighted halves that need to be balanced.

Sure?

But in this case, since Shaq doesn't have a defensive advantage and prime MJ doesn't lose out to Shaq on O, it doesn't really matter, does it?

There is no way it's 2024 and people are still arguing Jordan's defense vs big-men. Shaq also does have an advantage in terms of creation per the OP's tracking thus far. Assuming they are operating in good-faith there, it's perfectly fair for them to argue shaq does have an offensive advantage on the basis of that (along with whatever he is providing via the fouls he stacks on opposing defenders).

As is, Shaq, not Jordan, has led goat-level playoff offenses, so I don't know what isolating for offensive team results does for Jordan here

[tsherkin]

There is no way it's 2024 and people are still arguing Jordan's defense vs big-men.

Against a good big man defender, I would never. But Shaq was lazy as all hell and after his rookie season, his shot-blocking wasn't all that impressive either.

Shaq also does have an advantage in terms of creation per the OP's tracking thus far. Assuming they are operating in good-faith there, it's perfectly fair for them to argue shaq does have an offensive advantage on the basis of that (along with whatever he is providing via the fouls he stacks on opposing defenders).

As is, Shaq, not Jordan, has led goat-level playoff offenses, so I don't know what isolating for offensive team results does for Jordan here

Yeah, my remark was fairly simple. In Jordan's prime, he was scoring on efficiency comparable to Shaq, at higher volume, on lower turnover production, right? And more reliable at the end of games. More reliable late in the clock. I don't really see a clear advantage for Shaq. ANd the scoring gap is there, for sure, even in the OP.

[OhayoKD]

Jordan does not have 9 or 10. It took Jordan until 1989 to become the clear cut best player. If Magic never got hurt in 1989 and played as good as he did vs the Pistons in the finals as he did the year prior, no way would MJ have “clear cut best player” appreciation. Hakeem was arguably better than Jordan in 1993, 1997, and Shaq was better in 1998. That’s only 5 years. Shaq became the clear cut best around the same time MJ did, but I don’t really think that is a good talking point regardless.

MJ was already the league leader in BPM and VORP while putting up an astounding 37.1 ppg w/ +2.8 rTS in '86-87. That's the start of his prime for me. Till '97-98 there are 10 seasons (except the '93-95' period), out of which he lead the league in the above mentioned advanced metrics in 9 seasons and won the ring in 6. Even if there can be years in this period where someone can be argued to be better based on specific criteria, this level of dominance in a 10 year period is nothing that Shaq has ever done.

Can you explain to me how BPM or VORP means you're a better player? VORP says 2023 Curry wasn't even a top 10 player. BPM & VORP says Butler was a top 4 player in 2023. There's a lot of other players these advanced stats have over other guys who aren't better players. You can't blame the stats, as they're just blindly calculating box score stats with certain stats meaning more than others to come up with an end all be all number.

Jordan vs era comp using real data instead of made-up formulas by the way:

Magic Johnson(3x MVP) 1980-1991
Lakers are +0.8 without, +7.5 with

Micheal Jordan(5x MVP) 1985-1998
Bulls are +1.3 without, +6.1 with

Hakeem(1x MVP) 1985-1999
Rockets are -2.8 without. +2.5 with

Keeping in mind Hakeem is the standout here in terms of playoff translation, "clear-cut best" seems like a stretch. As is 1993 and 1997 being "arguable"

[OhayoKD]

There is no way it's 2024 and people are still arguing Jordan's defense vs big-men.

Against a good big man defender, I would never. But Shaq was lazy as all hell and after his rookie season, his shot-blocking wasn't all that impressive either.

Shaq is still in the top 5 percentile in terms of paint-protection among players. Jordan is still below average. Shaq can get cooked in certain matchups (malone) but so can Jordan (Drexler had a field day against him on a bad hamstring). I don't buy Shaq is generally a bad or average big, at least not at his best(and if we are looking at not-best years, 1992/1993 seems alot easier to attack to me given how he does in what is supposed to be his strong point facing not comparable competition).

Shaq also does have an advantage in terms of creation per the OP's tracking thus far. Assuming they are operating in good-faith there, it's perfectly fair for them to argue shaq does have an offensive advantage on the basis of that (along with whatever he is providing via the fouls he stacks on opposing defenders).

As is, Shaq, not Jordan, has led goat-level playoff offenses, so I don't know what isolating for offensive team results does for Jordan here

Yeah, my remark was fairly simple. In Jordan's prime, he was scoring on efficiency comparable to Shaq, at higher volume, on lower turnover production, right? And more reliable at the end of games. I don't really see a clear advantage for Shaq. ANd the scoring gap is there, for sure, even in the OP.

Your remark doesn't seem to account for the possibility that Shaq created significantly more leveraging his much, much, stronger gravity (OP seems to think this is what happened in the tape they've watched), Shaq had a significant effect putting defenders in foul trouble at a much higher clip, and obviously offensive rebounding(something which was particularly valuable to the Bulls offensive success) is an area Shaq is far more valuable.

I am not saying he is better offensively, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand. I've always given Jordan the benefit of the doubt here because of his ball-handling but now that people are actually checking tape, it seems post-gravity has been greatly underplayed.

Historic results and signals would suggest creation is harder to replace than scoring volume for offensive engines, and Shaq teams do perform better offensively in the big games.

More reliable late in the clock.

What's your basis for this? No Jordan-led teams have been found to overperform in the 4th quarter thus far as far as I know(1992 they get worse per VanVest, 89-91 they get worse over the games Ben Taylor tracked per Ben Taylor) and neither the 97 or 98 Bulls made the top 10 4th quarter team list Colts compiled(covering 1997-2013).

I haven't looked into Shaq's teams performance, but Shaq has plenty to offer that Jordan can't replicate late in games outside of free-throw shooting.

[Jaqua92]

There is no way it's 2024 and people are still arguing Jordan's defense vs big-men.

Against a good big man defender, I would never. But Shaq was lazy as all hell and after his rookie season, his shot-blocking wasn't all that impressive either.

Shaq is still in the top 5 percentile in terms of paint-protection among players. Jordan is still below average. Shaq can get cooked in certain matchups (malone) but so can Jordan (Drexler had a field day against him on a bad hamstring). I don't buy Shaq is generally a bad or average big, at least not at his best(and if we are looking at not-best years, 1992/1993 seems alot easier to attack to me given how he does in what is supposed to be his strong point facing not comparable competition).

Shaq also does have an advantage in terms of creation per the OP's tracking thus far. Assuming they are operating in good-faith there, it's perfectly fair for them to argue shaq does have an offensive advantage on the basis of that (along with whatever he is providing via the fouls he stacks on opposing defenders).

As is, Shaq, not Jordan, has led goat-level playoff offenses, so I don't know what isolating for offensive team results does for Jordan here

Yeah, my remark was fairly simple. In Jordan's prime, he was scoring on efficiency comparable to Shaq, at higher volume, on lower turnover production, right? And more reliable at the end of games. I don't really see a clear advantage for Shaq. ANd the scoring gap is there, for sure, even in the OP.

Your remark doesn't seem to account for the possibility that Shaq created significantly more leveraging his much, much, stronger gravity (OP seems to think this is what happened in the tape they've watched), Shaq had a significant effect putting defenders in foul trouble at a much higher clip, and obviously offensive rebounding(something which was particularly valuable to the Bulls offensive success) is an area Shaq is far more valuable.

I am not saying he is better offensively, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand. I've always given Jordan the benefit of the doubt here because of his ball-handling but now that people are actually checking tape, it seems post-gravity has been greatly underplayed.

Historic results and signals would suggest creation is harder to replace than scoring volume for offensive engines, and Shaq teams do perform better offensively in the big games.

More reliable late in the clock.

What's your basis for this? No Jordan-led teams have been found to overperform in the 4th quarter thus far as far as I know(1992 they get worse per VanVest, 89-91 they get worse over the games Ben Taylor tracked per Ben Taylor) and neither the 97 or 98 Bulls made the top 10 4th quarter team list Colts compiled(covering 1997-2013).

I haven't looked into Shaq's teams performance, but Shaq has plenty to offer that Jordan can't replicate late in games outside of free-throw shooting.

Ah, if it isn't Mr Anti Jordan himself.


Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[Colbinii]

Against a good big man defender, I would never. But Shaq was lazy as all hell and after his rookie season, his shot-blocking wasn't all that impressive either.

Shaq is still in the top 5 percentile in terms of paint-protection among players. Jordan is still below average. Shaq can get cooked in certain matchups (malone) but so can Jordan (Drexler had a field day against him on a bad hamstring). I don't buy Shaq is generally a bad or average big, at least not at his best(and if we are looking at not-best years, 1992/1993 seems alot easier to attack to me given how he does in what is supposed to be his strong point facing not comparable competition).

Yeah, my remark was fairly simple. In Jordan's prime, he was scoring on efficiency comparable to Shaq, at higher volume, on lower turnover production, right? And more reliable at the end of games. I don't really see a clear advantage for Shaq. ANd the scoring gap is there, for sure, even in the OP.

Your remark doesn't seem to account for the possibility that Shaq created significantly more leveraging his much, much, stronger gravity (OP seems to think this is what happened in the tape they've watched), Shaq had a significant effect putting defenders in foul trouble at a much higher clip, and obviously offensive rebounding(something which was particularly valuable to the Bulls offensive success) is an area Shaq is far more valuable.

I am not saying he is better offensively, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand. I've always given Jordan the benefit of the doubt here because of his ball-handling but now that people are actually checking tape, it seems post-gravity has been greatly underplayed.

Historic results and signals would suggest creation is harder to replace than scoring volume for offensive engines, and Shaq teams do perform better offensively in the big games.

More reliable late in the clock.

What's your basis for this? No Jordan-led teams have been found to overperform in the 4th quarter thus far as far as I know(1992 they get worse per VanVest, 89-91 they get worse over the games Ben Taylor tracked per Ben Taylor) and neither the 97 or 98 Bulls made the top 10 4th quarter team list Colts compiled(covering 1997-2013).

I haven't looked into Shaq's teams performance, but Shaq has plenty to offer that Jordan can't replicate late in games outside of free-throw shooting.

Ah, if it isn't Mr Anti Jordan himself.


Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

At least they put themselves out there and support their view points with data and/or a belief which follows a logical thought process.

Id much rather read someone who is logical and presents their view, even if I disagree, than someone who just calls someone a name and contributes nothing to a discussion.

I guess it's the American in me who is sick of incoherence running through our country the past 8 years.

[migya]

There is no way it's 2024 and people are still arguing Jordan's defense vs big-men.

Against a good big man defender, I would never. But Shaq was lazy as all hell and after his rookie season, his shot-blocking wasn't all that impressive either.

Shaq also does have an advantage in terms of creation per the OP's tracking thus far. Assuming they are operating in good-faith there, it's perfectly fair for them to argue shaq does have an offensive advantage on the basis of that (along with whatever he is providing via the fouls he stacks on opposing defenders).

As is, Shaq, not Jordan, has led goat-level playoff offenses, so I don't know what isolating for offensive team results does for Jordan here

Yeah, my remark was fairly simple. In Jordan's prime, he was scoring on efficiency comparable to Shaq, at higher volume, on lower turnover production, right? And more reliable at the end of games. More reliable late in the clock. I don't really see a clear advantage for Shaq. ANd the scoring gap is there, for sure, even in the OP.

It's almost like people haven't watched Jordan play and/or are just against him. Jordan drew defenses unlike anyone else in his era, and both perimeter and post. He didn't have that much shooting around him but he was mostly the creator for the shooting. Pippen didn't have much gravity. Jordan passed real well, not just scored. His defense is dismissed here and he was a better defender than Shaq. Not many would say Kawhi or another current era good perimeter defender was not as good a defender as someone like Myles Turner.

Shaq had better teams than Jordan. Orlando and Lakers were rather stacked and many of those around Shaq were good without him in their careers.

[Lebronnygoat]

There is no way it's 2024 and people are still arguing Jordan's defense vs big-men.

Against a good big man defender, I would never. But Shaq was lazy as all hell and after his rookie season, his shot-blocking wasn't all that impressive either.

Shaq also does have an advantage in terms of creation per the OP's tracking thus far. Assuming they are operating in good-faith there, it's perfectly fair for them to argue shaq does have an offensive advantage on the basis of that (along with whatever he is providing via the fouls he stacks on opposing defenders).

As is, Shaq, not Jordan, has led goat-level playoff offenses, so I don't know what isolating for offensive team results does for Jordan here

Yeah, my remark was fairly simple. In Jordan's prime, he was scoring on efficiency comparable to Shaq, at higher volume, on lower turnover production, right? And more reliable at the end of games. More reliable late in the clock. I don't really see a clear advantage for Shaq. ANd the scoring gap is there, for sure, even in the OP.

It's almost like people haven't watched Jordan play and/or are just against him. Jordan drew defenses unlike anyone else in his era, and both perimeter and post. He didn't have that much shooting around him but he was mostly the creator for the shooting. Pippen didn't have much gravity. Jordan passed real well, not just scored. His defense is dismissed here and he was a better defender than Shaq. Not many would say Kawhi or another current era good perimeter defender was not as good a defender as someone like Myles Turner.

Shaq had better teams than Jordan. Orlando and Lakers were rather stacked and many of those around Shaq were good without him in their careers.

I've watched plenty of Jordan games, and he definitely does not draw in a defense like a Shaq, or Hakeem. Considering Pippen was essentially the point forward, his ball handling duties dipped, and off ball game became more prevalent. Yet, he wasn't attracting the defenders like Shaq was off the ball, he wasn't being as worrisome for putbacks either, so he had more gravity in attaining rebounds too. Track this, watch any Jordan game and compare it to Shaq from 95-05.