Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE — Magic Johnson

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Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE — Magic Johnson 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Sat Nov 9, 2024 12:28 am

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1986-87.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 19:30PM EST on Monday, November 11th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#2 » by One_and_Done » Sat Nov 9, 2024 12:33 am

Pretty disappointing 1986 result, as I doubt I'll be voting for Bird again. Probably going to be Magic at #1 for me.

I guess I'll go with:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. Barkley
5. McHale

Magic was clearly the best player this year, given his cumulative RS & PS performances. Had the Lakers playing incredible offense, and come finals time he was the best player on the court. Bird had a somewhat worse playoffs this year and didn't play as well as Magic, so he drops below him. He also drops below Jordan, he probably could have done beyter in the playoffs with a comparable support cast to Bird (though not in the RS probably).

Barkley was a better player than Hakeem at this point in time; it's not his fault Sixers management was horrific. McHale had an incredible season this year, probably trumping Hakeem with his remarkable 2 way play. I'm not impressed by Hakeem's impact, given his team won only 42 games and lost in the playoffs to the 39 win Sonics.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#3 » by Narigo » Sat Nov 9, 2024 1:21 am

1.Magic Johnson- Imo the best offensive player this season. Increases his scoring load due to Kareem age.

2. Michael Jordan- Scored a career high scoring season. Played well in gm1 and gm2 against Boston. But a terrible gm3 brought down his efficiency

3. Larry Bird- Could be as high as number 2, But I think Jordan at this point is a better offensive player than Bird. Plus Bird's denfense kind of drops off at this point

4. Hakeem Olajuwon - Same player as last year, but the cast around him does not play as well definitely with injuries with Sampson

5. Charles Barkley - Played better this year than last year. Although Mchale has a reasonanble argument at this spot
Narigo's Fantasy Team

PG: Damian Lillard
SG: Sidney Moncrief
SF:
PF: James Worthy
C: Tim Duncan

BE: Robert Horry
BE:
BE:
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#4 » by penbeast0 » Sat Nov 9, 2024 1:44 am

Lakers are the best team in both the RS and the PS. Kareem continues to age gracefully but without rebounding and with declining mobility, he's not a top 5 player anymore. It is even more Magic's team. The Celtics are still the 2nd best team in the league and make the finals again. Bird is their primary offensive agent with McHale a strong second option, McHale and Parish share defensive duties.

Atlanta and Dallas are the next best in the RS but Atlanta loses 4-1 to the Pistons and Dallas doesn't make it out of the first round. First time I've considered Nique a to 5 candidate, I will have to look at him. Aquirre and Blackman lead Dallas.
Other winning teams (in order) include Detroit led by Isiah and Laimbeer as Dantley takes a secondary role (though not enough of one to satisfy Isiah). Milwaukee hangs on to the legacy of the Moncrief teams without him as Terry Cummings steps up offensively and Paul Pressey leads a strong team effort defensively. Portland adds a young Clyde Drexler to Kiki Vandeweghe's shooting. Philly become Barkley's team as Erving's career winds down. Utah has Karl Malone but has yet to replace Ricky Green as a starter with Stockton. Others include Washington, Houston, GS, and Indiana.

Scoring leader is Michael Jordan on a 40-42 Bulls team, Barkley for rebounding, Magic for assists. Box score compilation stats have Jordan leading in PER, Win Shares (Magic leads in /48), Box +/- and VORP. Michael Cooper wins DPOY as a 6th man.

POY VOTE
1. Magic
2. Bird
3. Jordan
4. McHale
5. Hakeem.


Barkley and Hakeem are my main candidates for #5. I don't like Barkley's laziness on defense or his passing, he just doesn't seem to have the BBIQ of the true greats but he was truly one of the most dominant scorers in NBA history, almost Dantley level with great rebounding as well. On the other hand, Hakeem has more turnovers than assists and his team doesn't impress but as usual, he steps up his personal game in the playoffs, Barkley didn't.

HM: Nique had a nice RS but scorers who consistently drop in efficiency in the postseason are a bit problematic for me and scoring is really all he provides. Isiah might be here for me except for his trying to push Dantley out for someone who deferred to him more.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#5 » by AEnigma » Sat Nov 9, 2024 4:14 am

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Mark Eaton
3. Charles Oakley


The most amazing thing happens this year. Hakeem essentially maintains his block and steal rate, and he marginally increases his defensive rebounding rate, but now suddenly the Rockets go from “a below average defence” to a top three one! Wow, really speaks to just how much he individually must have skyrocketed his defensive “awareness”. :nod:

Eaton’s block rates slides a little further — although the Jazz also mysteriously manage to improve :dontknow: — and that coupled with Hakeem’s increase in games played and slight individual improvement is enough to dethrone him. Impressive three year run though, and I see him as a similarly valid contender for this award until 1990.

No one else is especially close to these two. McHale is expending more energy on offence, which would be fine if not for further decreased defensive effectiveness in the postseason. Most other top defences are ensemble efforts. So I will throw a bone to Oakley; the Bulls are significantly improved from their prior couple of years of ineptitude, and his three thousand minutes of aggressive rebounding and stout post defence to me reads as the primary contributing factor. But there are plenty of valid choices among the league’s bigs, and even Michael Cooper is a respectable third place choice as the league’s best perimetre defender.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Michael Jordan


Probably the greatest total offensive season in league history (not necessarily the best). Top five postseason relative offensive rating among champions and a top five regular season relative offensive rating among champions by basically any metric you care you use, and orchestrated the entire offence.
sansterre wrote: Offensive / Defensive Ratings from Opposition Regular Season Average:

Denver Nuggets: +14.9 / -9.4
Golden State Warriors: +10.5 / +2.3
Seattle SuperSonics: +6.9 / -4.9
Boston Celtics: +11.6 / +0.6

From ‘82 to ‘85 [the Lakers had] won the West four straight times. Through this time Magic had been running the offense, but the primary scorer had been Kareem, consistently posting 25+% usage rates while Magic and Worthy stayed in the low 20s. This was all well and good until 1986. In the playoffs they ran into the Houston Rockets with young Hakeem Olajuwon. And Kareem faltered, struggling to score against Olajuwon (who was 15 years younger) and the Lakers’ offense was shut down. The Lakers were whipped in five games by the young Rockets. It may have seemed like the Lakers’ dominance was at an end.

Instead, the Lakers returned with almost the exact same roster and posted their best regular season of the decade. They posted 65 wins (their next best was 62) and a +8.32 RSRS (next best was +6.84). But it was the same roster, and we know that Kareem probably couldn’t keep maintaining the scoring load at age 39. What changed?

Magic took over the offense. From ‘86 to ‘87 he jumped in usage all the way to 26.3% (not crazy-high, but comparable to Garnett levels of usage). He posted scoring numbers north of 30 PPX and pretty much maintained his efficiency. Do you realize how nuts it is that from ‘86 to ‘87 he increased his usage by 4.7% and only saw his efficiency drop by 0.8%? I’m not trying to say that Magic became one of the best scorers in the league . . . but he was pretty good. 26.3% usage and +6% shooting was actually comparable to Kareem the year before, and Ginobili from ‘07 is another good comparison. To that point Magic had merely been an efficient scorer on limited volume while running the offense. In 1987 he led the offense in both playmaking *and* scoring, and instead of crumbling the offense posted its finest season to date. Jumps of usage that big are extremely rare. And Magic’s OLoad jumped all the way to 32%, which is comparable to ‘16/’17 LeBron James. His Helio went from 32.6% in ‘86 to 41.7% in ‘87. He was twenty-seven. You know people often flap their yaps about “I never saw this player raise his game and carry his team”? Magic freaking raised his game and freaking carried his team in ‘87. Do you know how many teams finished in the top 10 (for this list) in both regular season offense and playoff offense? Three. The '05 Suns, the '87 Lakers and the '17 Warriors. Good list to be on.

Bird has his best offensive regular season and one of his three best offensive postseasons. The jump here is primarily through his scoring efficiency, and the Celtics have what at that point was their all-time best relative offensive rating (exceeded the following year and again in 2024). While some of that is attributable to McHale’s outlier best scoring season, the carryover and improvement in 1988 to me points to Bird’s scoring elevation as the true impetus.

Jordan has his 2006 Kobe / 2003 McGrady season, but I prefer Kobe as a playmaker and passer (to say nothing of McGrady), which keeps Jordan behind Bird for this and next year. Laudable lift though; easy to imagine the Bulls being the league’s worst offence without him, even if I would not take that as a given.

Player of the Year

1. Magic Johnson
2. Larry Bird
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Michael Jordan
5. Kevin McHale

Doctor MJ wrote:Magic's one of the easiest choices for #1 I think I'll ever have. People talk about his luck in being on Kareem's team, and there's some truth there. This is the season where the Lakers fully got behind Magic as the guy everything ran through. His scoring goes up 5 points per game while losing no significant efficiency, while continuing to drop just as just as many dimes. How's the team do? Their best ever ORtg and SRS on their way to the title. It's this season that makes it hard to argue that a better offensive player has ever existed.
semi-sentient wrote:I'm not buying the weak opponents argument at all. How can you possibly penalize Magic for leading the Lakers to a 11-1 record over WC opponents? The Lakers average margin of victory was 23.3 PTS for crying out loud. So what if they were weak? Is that his fault?

Didn't the Lakers still beat the 2nd best team in the league in the NBA Finals, blowing them out by 13, 19, and 13 in the process?

What secures Magic for me is the postseason reliability. The regular season is great, but combining that regular season with a similarly historic postseason offence is what separates him from Bird’s best offensive seasons. I think Magic’s postseason superiority has been true going back to the NCAA, with a 3-game exception in 1981 and an unfortunate Game 5 Finals exception in 1984, but it is never felt more clearly than in these final two years of Bird’s prime.

As I write in posts below, I do not have Bird as a definite top three player anymore. However, I also do not believe in crediting players for unknowns. I suspect Hakeem, with a marginally better team, would have performed better against the Lakers than Bird did. However, dominant series like in 1986 are not a given (see 1990 and 1991), and I think leading your conference 1-seed team to the Finals over a pair of good teams is worth more to a “Player of the Year” campaign than what Hakeem did this year dragging a rapidly decaying cast to marginal season-long relevance.
ronnymac wrote: This was the year that let everyone know that Dream was here to stay. 86 caught people by surprise. In 87, he was all-nba first team and all-d first team at the C position. He put up 23/11/3/3/2/50%/70%ft/dominant defense. He led the league in defensive rating and defensive win shares. His second best player, Ralph Sampson, was hurt half the season. So for half the season, he was sharing the middle with another guy inside while his team was a below average 3-point shooting team for the year (below league average in percentage, makes, and attempts). Where's his space? The other half, his second in command was gone.

Then in the playoffs, with a 10-game sample size (not a four game illusion like 88 can be argued), Hakeem led the playoffs in PER at 28.5. He dropped 29/11 with 4.3 blocks, got to the line 10 times per game (74%), shot over 61 percent from the field, and played great defense.

In the elimination game against Seattle, Hakeem dropped 49 points, 24 rebounds, and 6 blocks in the OT loss. That entire game is on youtube. I recommend watching it; it's a great all-around basketball game, and you get to see Dale Ellis, Tom Chambers, and Xavier McDaniel, too.

Hakeem was amazing in the game aside from production. His defense was great and he did everything he could to keep his team in it. IIRC, Ralph Sampson missed huge free throws down the stretch and played badly late in the game. The whole game, Tom Heinsohn is saying how great Hakeem is and how he's a hard worker, but still needs to work on reading the defenses that keep on tripling him and collapsing on him (no jokes about how Hakeem is the only guy ever doubled, please). They really were swarming him all game. At times though, Hakeem makes beautiful, creative passes to teammates that even make Heinsohn gush.

It is clear that Olajuwon does indeed need to learn some more technical things regarding passing (too many turnovers during the post-season), but his creativity and willingness were there.

It is enough to take him over Jordan though, who won less, was less impressive in the postseason, and feels like he is primarily receiving the perpetual benefit of doubt from his name, gaudy scoring totals, and cultural aura.
ronnymac wrote:Jordan sort of struggled in his elimination. Taken from the youtube video info that fatal9ish posted:

"Bird outperformed Jordan quite easily. Bird had 32/14/6 and hit for 15 fourth quarter points! Jordan though struggled in this elimination game and would get 30 points on only 9/30 shooting.

Bulls had a 7 point lead at home with 11 minutes left in the fourth. What better position for the best scorer in the game, right? Jordan though, would struggle and would go 0-8 in the 4th quarter. Not a single field goal, though he did score 5 points from freethrows. As a result, Celtics went on a Bird-led run in the fourth and completed the sweep."

He was going up against a tremendous team with crap around him, but still. This wasn't MJ the invincible. This was MJ the great player who needs to learn some more.

McHale is a step down from these four MVP level players, but in an outlier peak season where he legitimately did look on par with Bird for long stretches, I give him the edge over first-round exit Barkley and post-peak Isiah.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#6 » by One_and_Done » Sat Nov 9, 2024 4:44 am

Weird. How did Hakeem suddenly drop below both Bird and Magic.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#7 » by trelos6 » Sat Nov 9, 2024 7:30 am

OPOY

1.Magic Johnson. Best passer and playmaker in the league, by a significant margin. Starts to up his scoring volume also. 23.3 pp75, +6.4 rTS%. Team rOrtg +7.3

2.Larry Bird. 25.2 pp75, +7.4 rTS%. Team rOrtg +5.2. Great passing and playmaking also. Beats Mike for efficiency and passing.

3.Michael Jordan. 34.8 pp75, +2.4 rTS%. This is a level of volume scoring we haven’t seen before, and will not see again until Kobe ‘06. Good enough efficiency to drive a positive team rOrtg, though Bulls were still mid pack offensively.


DPOY

1.Mark Eaton. Anchors the #1 defense in the NBA, and thus pips Hakeem by a whisker.

2.Hakeem Olajuwon. Anchors the #3 defense in the NBA.

3.Bill Laimbeer. Pistons were good defensively in the playoffs, and pretty good in the regular season.

POY

1.Magic Johnson. +5.57 OPIPM, +0.41 DPIPM. +5.98 PIPM. 18.74 Wins Added.

2.Larry Bird. +4.38 OPIPM, +1.05 DPIPM. +5.43 PIPM. 19.98 Wins Added.

3.Michael Jordan. +5.34 OPIPM, +1.39 DPIPM. +6.73 PIPM. 19.64 Wins Added.

4.Hakeem Olajuwon. +2.14 OPIPM, +3.65 DPIPM. +5.79 PIPM. 16.78 Wins Added. 23 pp75 on +1.6rTS%, team’s offense was bad though, -1.8 rOrtg. Hakeem’s here for his defense, which was amazing.

5.Kevin McHale. +3.06 OPIPM, +0.36 DPIPM. +3.42 PIPM. 14.57 Wins Added. He was in consideration for 3rd place in DPOY. 23.9 pp75 on +11.7 rTS%.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#8 » by AEnigma » Sat Nov 9, 2024 8:46 am

One_and_Done wrote:Weird. How did Hakeem suddenly drop below both Bird and Magic.

Weird, how are you over thirty threads in and still under the impression that the exercise is to ignore what happened in the season and just abstractly rank five players on a personal whim.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#9 » by One_and_Done » Sat Nov 9, 2024 8:48 am

AEnigma wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Weird. How did Hakeem suddenly drop below both Bird and Magic.

Weird, how are you over thirty threads in and still under the impression that the exercise is to ignore what happened in the season and just abstractly rank five players on a personal whim.

Well did Hakeem play worse this year? Did Bird play better?
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#10 » by AEnigma » Sat Nov 9, 2024 8:54 am

One_and_Done wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Weird. How did Hakeem suddenly drop below both Bird and Magic.

Weird, how are you over thirty threads in and still under the impression that the exercise is to ignore what happened in the season and just abstractly rank five players on a personal whim.

Well did Hakeem play worse this year? Did Bird play better?

Hakeem accomplished less, and Magic accomplished more. You want to know my player ranking this year? It is Magic >= Hakeem > Jordan > Bird, and after that I do not think there were any legitimate MVP talents. But Jordan was a first round sweep, Hakeem was a second round exit, and Bird had one of the most memorable plays in NBA history to secure game 5 against the Pistons and eventually go to the Finals.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#11 » by One_and_Done » Sat Nov 9, 2024 9:06 am

AEnigma wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Weird, how are you over thirty threads in and still under the impression that the exercise is to ignore what happened in the season and just abstractly rank five players on a personal whim.

Well did Hakeem play worse this year? Did Bird play better?

Hakeem accomplished less, and Magic accomplished more. You want to know my player ranking this year? It is Magic >= Hakeem > Jordan > Bird, and after that I do not think there were any legitimate MVP talents. But Jordan was a first round sweep, Hakeem was a second round exit, and Bird had one of the most memorable plays in NBA history to secure game 5 against the Pistons and eventually go to the Finals.

So Bird was a worse player than Hakeem in your mind, but Bird 'accomplished more' so he gets the nod, partly for a single 'memorable play' he had.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#12 » by OhayoKD » Sat Nov 9, 2024 1:24 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Lakers are the best team in both the RS and the PS. Kareem continues to age gracefully but without rebounding and with declining mobility, he's not a top 5 player anymore. It is even more Magic's team. The Celtics are still the 2nd best team in the league and make the finals again. Bird is their primary offensive agent with McHale a strong second option, McHale and Parish share defensive duties.

Atlanta and Dallas are the next best in the RS but Atlanta loses 4-1 to the Pistons and Dallas doesn't make it out of the first round. First time I've considered Nique a to 5 candidate, I will have to look at him. Aquirre and Blackman lead Dallas.
Other winning teams (in order) include Detroit led by Isiah and Laimbeer as Dantley takes a secondary role (though not enough of one to satisfy Isiah). Milwaukee hangs on to the legacy of the Moncrief teams without him as Terry Cummings steps up offensively and Paul Pressey leads a strong team effort defensively. Portland adds a young Clyde Drexler to Kiki Vandeweghe's shooting. Philly become Barkley's team as Erving's career winds down. Utah has Karl Malone but has yet to replace Ricky Green as a starter with Stockton. Others include Washington, Houston, GS, and Indiana.
.

trelos6 wrote:
3.Michael Jordan. +5.34 OPIPM, +1.39 DPIPM. +6.73 PIPM. 19.64 Wins Added.

4.Hakeem Olajuwon. +2.14 OPIPM, +3.65 DPIPM. +5.79 PIPM. 16.78 Wins Added. 23 pp75 on +1.6rTS%, team’s offense was bad though, -1.8 rOrtg. Hakeem’s here for his defense, which was amazing.

5.Kevin McHale. +3.06 OPIPM, +0.36 DPIPM. +3.42 PIPM. 14.57 Wins Added. He was in consideration for 3rd place in DPOY. 23.9 pp75 on +11.7 rTS%.

Why Jordan over Hakeem? Hakeem wins more games and goes as far despite a dramatically more dysfunctional situation which includes his best teammate missing half the year.

Bulls lose a general impact negative(was a 8th man on his only ever winnng team, next destination gets worse, scoribg peak is on a -12 team) in woodridge and gain a positive in Oakley while Rockets have their rotation decimated with coke yet ultimately Hakeem anchors the more successful season on the back of a massive advantage in rim-protection and paint-detterence a stat like PIPM or PER can't really account for
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#13 » by AEnigma » Sat Nov 9, 2024 1:37 pm

One_and_Done wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Well did Hakeem play worse this year? Did Bird play better?

Hakeem accomplished less, and Magic accomplished more. You want to know my player ranking this year? It is Magic >= Hakeem > Jordan > Bird, and after that I do not think there were any legitimate MVP talents. But Jordan was a first round sweep, Hakeem was a second round exit, and Bird had one of the most memorable plays in NBA history to secure game 5 against the Pistons and eventually go to the Finals.

So Bird was a worse player than Hakeem in your mind, but Bird 'accomplished more' so he gets the nod, partly for a single 'memorable play' he had.

Yes? I was responding in kind earlier, but do you actually not understand what this project is?

If what you perceive as the five best players in the league miss the postseason — and we are not far off that in 1992 — are you voting for them all the same? What if each of them plays 65 games? 55 games? I know 18 games at least is disqualifying for you, so what exactly is the point where you start to care about what each player did rather than how “good” you say you think they were?

I have not issued an edict for people to follow any specific ballot ordering process outside of needing to vote explicitly based on the year in question, so you certainly have the freedom to vote exclusively off your personal ranking of quality in a given year, but again, we are well over thirty threads in now, which means I do not see how it could be a mystery to you that pretty much no one is voting in a way where it literally does not matter what happened (even if the bar for “achievement” is wildly variable”).
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#14 » by homecourtloss » Sat Nov 9, 2024 4:50 pm

RPOY Votes

1. Magic Johnson

Might be peak Magic. Even though it has been apparent that he’s the Lakers’ best player for some years, Magic takes on more of a scoring load this year but his efficiency stays the same. He caps it all off by playing an amazing finals series and is the best player on the court even though you had other great performances from others.

From the beginning of the 1984 playoffs through the Finals of the 1991 season, a Magic led offense underperforms only twice in 29 series. I didn’t get a chance to get in a vote for the 1986 season, but this is one reason why I would have Hakeem at #1 in 1986 because he was the primary reason that the Lakers’ juggernaut offense was slowed down when nobody else could do it. It would have been very interesting to see if the 1986 Celtics could do it.

Image

Image

Image


2. Akeem “Hakeem” Olajuwon

Does not have that signature stunning playoff win over the Lakers in 1986 but if you look at him as a player and what he did in the playoffs against his nemesis, the Seattle supersonics, he was basically the same force that was in 1986. The case would be a little better if they win that 87 series the SuperSonics. He also Begins to become a little bit more refined as an offensive player even though he starts taking more difficult shots and his passing out of double team needs more work, but I see him having second season here.

3. Larry Bird

It’s interesting to see how much smoother Bird’s jumper gets peaking in 1988, but his defense begins to wane and looks to be a negative this year. Sansterre sums up nicely about the 1986 Celtics and what role Bird’s play had in them reaching these heights, which is that he was very good but not much different from 1985 and less offensively great than in later years, which is a reason why Bird would have been behind Hakeem for me in 1986 as well

Spoiler:
Where the heck did the ‘86 Celtics come from? It’s easy to paint them as simply the best team of a dynasty, that the Celtics were really good through the 80s and 1986 happened to be their best year. I don’t buy it. That argument fits more with the ‘85 and ‘87 Lakers. The Lakers were really good very consistently, and they happened to have two stronger years. The jumps up *to* those years weren’t that big, and the drops *from* those years weren’t that big either. But the Celtics? The ‘87 Celtics didn’t even make this list, the ‘84 Celtics were #50, the ‘85 Celtics were team #86 on this list. The best other Bird-era Celtics team here is the ‘81 version, which finished 46th. Contrast those (respectable teams, but nothing earth-shaking) to how freaking dominant the ‘86 Celtics were. 12th best regular season SRS ever, 7th best postseason SRS ever? That’s an insane leap.

To consider how rare a team like the ‘86 Celtics are (considering the seasons before and after them) I want to compare them to other dynasties using my OSRS (which has plenty of flaws, the lord knows, but it’s the best regular season and postseason blended rating I have).

Boston Celtics (‘84 to ‘88):

+7.48 | +7.72 | +12.55 | +5.66 | +5.37

That’s a pretty big jump and fall in the middle there. Check out this next one:

+5.13 | +5.46 | +12.9 | +11.16 | +8.6

That’s Chicago, with the ‘91 season as the +12.9. Massive, massive jump from ‘90 to ‘91 (bigger than the jump for the Celtics from ‘85 to ‘86). And this wasn’t caused by a roster addition; it was just Grant and Pippen (and some others) making the leap at the same time and suddenly giving Jordan a legitimate supporting cast. But unlike the Celtics they maintained around this level for several years. Here’s another:

+7.65 | +11.36 | +8.54 | +11.26 | +6.02

That’s the mid-80s Lakers, with ‘85 and ‘87 as the big seasons. Definitely volatile (jumping 3-4 up or down consistently) but never big swings like the Celtics had. How about:

+2.4 | +8.0 | +12.2 | +9.06 | +3.62

Those are the Shaq Lakers. Big jump from ‘99 to ‘00, but then they got better and maintained kind of for a year before dropping. Definitely more stable than the Celtics. Next:

-0.77 | +8.04 | +11.84 | +8.7 | +3.98

That’s a huge jump between the first two years, but after that it seems fairly slow to change. This is the Kobe Lakers, with the big jump being between ‘07 and ‘08, marked by the addition of Pau Gasol. Another:

-5.07 | +4.58 | +14.68 | +12.34 | +7.09

Check out how big those first two jumps are! These are the Kareem Bucks, starting in 1969. Between ‘69 and ‘70 they added rookie Kareem and Bob Dandridge, and between ‘70 and ‘71 those rookie grew and they added veteran Oscar Robertson. Here’s another:

+4.26 | +12.09 | +10.98 | +16.15 | +12.17

Those are the ‘14-’18 Warriors. That jump in the first year wasn’t adding any new players, it was simply switching to Kerr’s system and everybody staying healthy. And the next big jump was adding Durant. Another:

+9.09 | +10.78 | +12.32 | +6.66 | +12.22

These are the ‘12-’16 Spurs. Those first three years are a steady buildup, 2015 was a weird disappointment and 2016 was outstanding, if spoiled by other super-teams. Another:

+5.04 | +3.72 | +11.77 | +8.86 | -1.02

These are the ‘70-’74 Lakers. The first was a bit low because Wilt missed most of the season, the second was a bit low because West missed the playoffs. Then they explode in ‘72, diminish slightly in ‘73 and in ‘74 Wilt leaves and West plays less than half a season.

Well, I’ll admit, based on all of those samples, maybe the ‘86 Celtics aren’t as much of an aberration as I thought. Here are the top ten jumps from these teams (not exhaustive, just the teams I looked at):

1970 -> 1971 Milwaukee Bucks, +10.1
1969 -> 1970 Milwaukee Bucks, +9.65
2007 -> 2008 Los Angeles Lakers, +8.81
1971 -> 1972 Los Angeles Lakers, +8.05
2014 -> 2015 Golden State Warriors, +7.83
1990 -> 1991 Chicago Bulls, +7.44
1999 -> 2000 Los Angeles Lakers, +5.60
2015 -> 2016 San Antonio Spurs, +5.56
2016 -> 2017 Golden State Warriors, +5.17
1985 -> 1986 Boston Celtics, +4.83

Most of these are driven by player additions (whether that be acquisitions or merely getting players healthy. Of the nine non-Celtics seasons, I’d peg five as being of that sort (Kareem, Oscar, Pau, West being healthy and Durant). Another two are coaching changes (Kerr and Phil Jackson). Player development shows up as a lot of these; the ‘91 Bulls are the biggest example, but the ‘71 Bucks, ‘00 Lakers and ‘16 Spurs all show up. The ‘16 Spurs are a weird example, given that the rating of the ‘15 Spurs is tanked by a first-round exit against strong competition (the Clippers) and Tony Parker being injured for the playoffs.

So where does this leave the ‘86 Celtics? Well, they acquired Bill Walton, so that’s definitely a thing. K.C. Jones was the coach for the whole stretch, so coaching change doesn’t apply. And player development seems unlikely, since their core was all 28 or older except for Danny Ainge (26). But it’s weird to imagine that adding a player that only played 19 minutes a game (Walton) really transformed the team by that much. Let’s look at team drops:

1973 -> 1974 Los Angeles Lakers, -9.88
1986 -> 1987 Boston Celtics, -6.89
2014 -> 2015 San Antonio Spurs, -5.66
2002 -> 2003 Los Angeles Lakers, -5.44
1987 -> 1988 Los Angeles Lakers, -5.24
2011 -> 2012 Los Angeles Lakers, -4.72
2017 -> 2018 Golden State Warriors, -3.98
2010 -> 2011 Los Angeles Lakers, -3.14
2001 -> 2002 Los Angeles Lakers, -3.14
1972 -> 1973 Los Angeles Lakers, -2.91

Note that these drops are almost all smaller than the corresponding jumps. Great teams often get better suddenly, but they get worse more slowly. Some of these are driven by player loss, but many more are driven simply by aging, or a decreased effort. I know that the ‘87 Celtics lost Walton, but I can’t imagine that they gave decreased effort. And their core was all getting older . . . It keeps coming back to Walton. But it’s hard to imagine . . . As a last look, let’s check out the most aberrant seasons, basically seasons that jumped a lot from the year before and then fell the next year:

1971 Milwaukee Bucks, 12.44 swing (+10.1 up, -2.34 down)
1986 Boston Celtics, 11.72 swing (+4.83 up, -6.89 down)
1972 Los Angeles Lakers, 10.96 swing (+8.05 up, -2.91 down)
1991 Chicago Bulls, 9.18 swing (+7.44 up, -1.74 down)
2017 Golden State Warriors, 9.15 swing (+5.17 up, -3.98 down)
2015 Golden State Warriors, 8.94 swing (+7.83 up, -1.11 down)

Many of these are actually big jumps and small falls after a peak year. I think we can actually say that the Celtics’ 1986 season is historically unusual here. You may note that the ‘86 Celtics are the only team to be in the top ten of both rises and subsequent falls. So interesting. Let’s start looking at some possible causes:

Was it the way they used Larry Bird? Bird’s usage dropped in the ‘86 Playoffs, but his efficiency exploded. Maybe other iterations of the Celtics relied on him too much? Let’s check the numbers (from ‘80 to ‘88, regular season to playoff change in usage / true shooting, not opponent adjusted):

1980: -0.1 / -1.8
1981: -1.1 / +1.6
1982: -3.3 / -6.5
1983: +0.8 / -6.1
1984: -0.8 / +6.6
1985: -1.7 / -4.4
1986: -4.3 / +3.7
1987: -1.6 / -2.6
1988: -4.3 / -6.6

The numbers don’t really back this up. If you’re looking for a year that Bird put the team on his back by taking more shots in the playoffs, keep looking. Bird’s usage never jumped by more than a percent, and more often dropped. His only two big jumps in efficiency were ‘84 and ‘86. On average his usage and shooting dropped by almost 2% each (remember, this isn’t opponent adjusted, so dropping by 1.8% shooting is still probably a drop, but smaller than you think). So giving Bird fewer shots doesn’t seem to help too much. So we can cross that off.

Let’s get more granular (different team metrics from ‘84-88, all measured from league average):

Offensive Rating: +3.3 | +4.9 | +4.6 | +5.2 | +7.4

Wow! ‘86 was actually a slightly down year for their offense; it kept getting better in the late 80s.

Offensive eFG%: +0.9% | +1.9% | +2.5% | +4.4% | +5.2%

Yup, definitely driven by shooting. Well, we know that McHale’s peak was around the later years of these five, so that could be part of it. How about passing (Percent of FGM assisted):

Regular Season Passing: 58.6% | 61.5% | 64.2% | 66.4% | 68.0%
Playoff Passing: 55.8% | 62.9% | 65.1% | 63.6% | 70.6%

Wow. That’s very resilient passing; most teams’ A/FGM drops in the postseason, some by a lot (5-6% isn’t crazy). But notice how this keeps going up through the years, as their offensive rating goes up. It’s not crazy that Bird’s passing was improving (cerebral players often improve past their athletic prime) but let’s keep looking . . .

Offensive Rebounding: +1.2% | -0.1% | -1.1% | -4.4% | -3.0%

Huh. The Celtics, despite being an obviously strong rebounding team (when Bird is your 3, you probably should be) they weren’t that good on the offensive glass.

Hey, wait a minute. Increased offensive efficiency, but dropping offensive rebounding, increasing A/FGM . . .

3PA/FGA: 3.2% | 4.2% | 5.4% | 8.0% | 10.2%
Rank in 3PA/FGA: 8th | 6th | 5th | 2nd | 1st

The Celtics’ offense had always shot a fair amount of threes, but by ‘87 it was becoming a major part of their offense. Three pointers are more assisted shots than two pointers, so that explains much of the A/FGM trend, and it also explains much of the drop in offensive rebounding while shooting and offensive efficiency improved. Don’t get it twisted; in ‘88 the league-leading Celtics were shooting only 8.6 threes a game. But it undoubtedly boosted their shooting and spacing more than the rest of the league, which counts. The scary thing about the ‘86 Celtics is that their offense probably could have been even better if they’d moved their playstyle forward several years . . .

That said, this doesn’t address the initial question. Nothing about that trend suggests how the ‘86 Celtics really jumped up in an unsustainable way. If anything, the ‘86 Celtics’ offense was a slightly down year for them; we can’t explain their year that way.

Defensive Efficiency: -3.2 | -1.6 | -4.6 | -1.5 | +1.4

Whoa. Well, pretty sure that’s it. Wait, what happened in ‘84? Well, first off, McHale was coming off the bench and Maxwell was starting. Gerald Henderson was starting and Ainge was coming off the bench. Bird was 27, DJ was 29 and Parish was 30. So the starters were still close to their athletic peaks, Ainge’s minutes were going to a better ball-hawk and McHale . . . I don’t know if him coming off the bench or not helped. In ‘85 all of the core get older, and we lose Maxwell and Henderson. And in ‘86 they get Walton and he magically stays healthy. Sure he’s only playing 19 minutes a night, but he’s the only major change. And the Celtics jump from being a good defense to being the best defense in the league. And is it that crazy? If a healthy Walton can swing a defense by 5 points a game over a season (hypothetical, but not unreasonable) then why can’t Walton swing a defense 3 points a game over a season playing 60% of those minutes? I don’t really see another explanation.

And in ‘87? Walton’s out for the year and their entire bench struggles. Here’s a breakdown of the VORP from each VORP ranked slot (the #1 VORP, etc):

#1: 7.3 | 8.7 | 8.4 | 8.6 | 8.1
#2: 2.8 | 3.0 | 3.9 | 5.5 | 3.3
#3: 2.8 | 2.0 | 2.6 | 2.4 | 3.3
#4: 1.6 | 1.8 | 2.0 | 2.0 | 1.6
#5: 1.5 | 1.8 | 1.8 | 1.2 | 1.4
#6: 1.4 | 0.9 | 1.8 | 0.0 | 0.2
Others: -0.5 | -1.0 | -0.3 | -2.3 | -0.9

1987 was notable for two things: McHale posting an unusually good year and the bench falling apart. The Celtics had always been fairly top-heavy, but after ‘86 their bench was pretty weak. Walton was out, Wedman missed almost the entire year, Parish sprained his ankle and kept playing and McHale broke his foot (hairline, but still).

So, if I’m summarizing, the ‘86 Celtics made the leap by adding Walton (and by him staying healthy), and injuries to pretty much everyone brought the Celtics right back down to merely being very good.


4. Michael Jordan

A great comeback year after injury season, with some crazy box score numbers but not much team success even though Jordan played all 82 games at 40 minutes per game. Oakley, a plus defensive player, played all 82 games , and John Paxton also played all 82 games. I would say the Bulls had a better roster than the Rockets did who were decimated by injuries, drugs, etc.

5. Kevin McHale

Some other choices final here, but McHale provide a consistent scoring, but not much variance in true shooting percentage from game to game well also providing defense.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#15 » by One_and_Done » Sat Nov 9, 2024 7:22 pm

AEnigma wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Hakeem accomplished less, and Magic accomplished more. You want to know my player ranking this year? It is Magic >= Hakeem > Jordan > Bird, and after that I do not think there were any legitimate MVP talents. But Jordan was a first round sweep, Hakeem was a second round exit, and Bird had one of the most memorable plays in NBA history to secure game 5 against the Pistons and eventually go to the Finals.

So Bird was a worse player than Hakeem in your mind, but Bird 'accomplished more' so he gets the nod, partly for a single 'memorable play' he had.

Yes? I was responding in kind earlier, but do you actually not understand what this project is?

If what you perceive as the five best players in the league miss the postseason — and we are not far off that in 1992 — are you voting for them all the same? What if each of them plays 65 games? 55 games? I know 18 games at least is disqualifying for you, so what exactly is the point where you start to care about what each player did rather than how good they were?

I have not issued an edict for people to follow any specific ballot ordering process outside of needing to vote explicitly based on the year in question, so you certainly have the freedom to vote exclusively off your personal ranking of quality in a given year, but again, we are well over thirty threads in now, which means I do not see how it could be a mystery to you that pretty much no one is voting in a way where it literally does not matter what happened (even if the bar for “achievement” is wildly variable”).

I am under no illusions as to the nature of the project, it's just that what you 'accomplished' is a team achievement. If Jokic goes out in the 1st Rnd this season but plays awesome I'm not going to be rating him any lower because it's not his fault his team let him down.

I also think a single moment being a swing factor for an entire year is problematic. Bird was the one who lost the ball the play before his famous steal, but instead of focusing on that we're going to focus on him getting it back next possession? Wouldn't the 2 things cancel each other out? 1 single play is far too granular to impact a vote for an entire year.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#16 » by LA Bird » Sat Nov 9, 2024 8:01 pm

AEnigma wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Weird, how are you over thirty threads in and still under the impression that the exercise is to ignore what happened in the season and just abstractly rank five players on a personal whim.

Well did Hakeem play worse this year? Did Bird play better?

Hakeem accomplished less, and Magic accomplished more. You want to know my player ranking this year? It is Magic >= Hakeem > Jordan > Bird, and after that I do not think there were any legitimate MVP talents. But Jordan was a first round sweep, Hakeem was a second round exit, and Bird had one of the most memorable plays in NBA history to secure game 5 against the Pistons and eventually go to the Finals.

Even for team performance, the Celtics declined more from last year than the Rockets in both the regular season (-2.5 vs -1.5 SRS) and playoffs (-9.6 vs -5.2 net). Hakeem only accomplished less relative to Bird if you look at series won (1 fewer than last season) but that severely undersells the gap between a GOAT level team like the 86 Celtics and the 87 Celtics, a team which didn't even make the top 100 list by sansterre.

The 87 Celtics' Finals appearance looks good if you are just ticking off boxes but it's very underwhelming when you look at how they got there and the team they had. Boston was the only team with two top 5 players after old Kareem finally faded but despite that, they barely beat the Bucks (+0.3 with 2 single possession wins) and the Pistons (-3.7 with 2 single possession wins) by tiny margins. Boston even had career high series from both DJ (22/5/10, 59% TS) and Parish (22/13/2, 60% TS) and still almost lost to Milwaukee, a team which they had crushed twice in previous title runs. Other than the usual first round domination of the Bulls, the 87 Celtics were quite weak the entire playoffs, especially defensively. You could say Bird had the highlight steal to eventually send them to the Finals but it should never have been that close in the first place if they hadn't played poor defense throughout the postseason.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#17 » by AEnigma » Sat Nov 9, 2024 9:44 pm

^ LA Bird, I agree with pretty much all of that, but fact of the matter is that Hakeem and the Rockets were a footnote this year. Hakeem was not in the MVP discussion, and the Rockets were a functional after-thought team. Same reason I did not have Kareem top two in 1976 (and he won MVP). Nothing there changes how I approach my votes for this project. Hypothetically, if I thought the gap between Bird and Hakeem were more substantial (e.g. like with Isiah Thomas), then sure, Hakeem can go ahead, but as is, that is not how I assess the gap between them this year.
One_and_Done wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:So Bird was a worse player than Hakeem in your mind, but Bird 'accomplished more' so he gets the nod, partly for a single 'memorable play' he had.

Yes? I was responding in kind earlier, but do you actually not understand what this project is?

If what you perceive as the five best players in the league miss the postseason — and we are not far off that in 1992 — are you voting for them all the same? What if each of them plays 65 games? 55 games? I know 18 games at least is disqualifying for you, so what exactly is the point where you start to care about what each player did rather than how good they were?

I have not issued an edict for people to follow any specific ballot ordering process outside of needing to vote explicitly based on the year in question, so you certainly have the freedom to vote exclusively off your personal ranking of quality in a given year, but again, we are well over thirty threads in now, which means I do not see how it could be a mystery to you that pretty much no one is voting in a way where it literally does not matter what happened (even if the bar for “achievement” is wildly variable”).

I am under no illusions as to the nature of the project, it's just that what you 'accomplished' is a team achievement

Apparently not when it comes to defensive finishes.

If Jokic goes out in the 1st Rnd this season but plays awesome I'm not going to be rating him any lower because it's not his fault his team let him down.

That conflates how you rate a player with “Player of the Year”. And since I apparently need to do this every single time it comes up, just because you conflate those two does not mean most people are.

I also think a single moment being a swing factor for an entire year is problematic.

Well that is how the sport works.

Bird was the one who lost the ball the play before his famous steal, but instead of focusing on that we're going to focus on him getting it back next possession? Wouldn't the 2 things cancel each other out? 1 single play is far too granular to impact a vote for an entire year.

Please reread what I wrote and highlight where I said, “Bird making this play and this play exclusively is why I am voting for him, but if he had not made that play then there is no way I would be voting for him.”
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#18 » by One_and_Done » Sat Nov 9, 2024 9:48 pm

I mean why even mention Bird's iconic steal at all? Surely it just cancels out his bad turnover on the previous possession.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#19 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sat Nov 9, 2024 9:57 pm

LA Bird wrote:Even for team performance, the Celtics declined more from last year than the Rockets in both the regular season (-2.5 vs -1.5 SRS) and playoffs (-9.6 vs -5.2 net). Hakeem only accomplished less relative to Bird if you look at series won (1 fewer than last season) but that severely undersells the gap between a GOAT level team like the 86 Celtics and the 87 Celtics, a team which didn't even make the top 100 list by sansterre.

The 87 Celtics' Finals appearance looks good if you are just ticking off boxes but it's very underwhelming when you look at how they got there and the team they had. Boston was the only team with two top 5 players after old Kareem finally faded but despite that, they barely beat the Bucks (+0.3 with 2 single possession wins) and the Pistons (-3.7 with 2 single possession wins) by tiny margins. Boston even had career high series from both DJ (22/5/10, 59% TS) and Parish (22/13/2, 60% TS) and still almost lost to Milwaukee, a team which they had crushed twice in previous title runs. Other than the usual first round domination of the Bulls, the 87 Celtics were quite weak the entire playoffs, especially defensively. You could say Bird had the highlight steal to eventually send them to the Finals but it should never have been that close in the first place if they hadn't played poor defense throughout the postseason.


I mean, you are factoring in Walton being injured again and McHale playing on a broken foot re the 86/87 Celtics comparison right? Walton barely even played the last two rounds and only played in 10g in the rs. Had the Celtics been fully healthy they most likely repeat imo.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1986-87 UPDATE 

Post#20 » by AEnigma » Sat Nov 9, 2024 10:07 pm

One_and_Done wrote:I mean why even mention Bird's iconic steal at all? Surely it just cancels out his bad turnover on the previous possession.

Because it is relevant to the story of the season. It is an enduring memory pretty much everyone has. If the Celtics had lost that game and then gone on to also lose the series, then yes, what would be remembered is the turnover instead. And if he had made neither play, and the team still won, then as you said, nothing really changes except for the memory for that last second excitement.

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