Retro Player of the Year 2001-02 UPDATE — Tim Duncan

[AEnigma]

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 2001-02.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 11:30AM EST on Thursday, January 2nd. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Contrarian votes can be and have been sincere, but they look a lot more sincere when you take the time to fully present your reasoning rather than transparently pretend nothing is amiss.

Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

The rules here are that you've got to use the same type of thinking for all 5 votes. I understand putting more thought into #1 than #5, but I don't want PJ Brown votes. Voters do Brown type votes to give a guy an honorable mention. Makes sense if people only care about who finishes 1st, but I've been clear that I want to measure more than that. I've been trying to encourage literal "honorable mentions" to serve that purpose, and I'd ask that people use that as the way they honor guys who did something special but who aren't actually a top 5 guy that year.

There is a significant difference between a properly justified and internally consistent contrarian vote, and a vote whose purpose is to undermine the project itself. Ballots which threaten to do the latter and derail project discussion via blatant vote manipulation are liable to be tossed. If it happens twice, the offending poster will be removed from the project.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

[One_and_Done]

My #1 is going to be Duncan and it's not close. Not sure about 2-5.

1. Duncan

2. Shaq
3. KG
4. T-Mac
5. Dirk

HM: Kobe

Duncan is my easy #1. This may have been his peak year, even over 2003. He had probably the worst support cast of his career, and D Rob got hurt in the playoffs forcing Duncan to guard Shaq himself. The result was a 1 sided beat down by Duncan; 29-17-5 on 517 TS% vs Shaq's 21-12-3 on 487 TS%. Moreover, Duncan was walling off the paint and anchoring the Spurs D in a way Shaq never could, it's not his fault his team was trash. It is a miracle that team won 58. You watch those Spurs games, and TD was literally doing everything on both ends. He was anchoring their whole defense, and every play on offense was 'throw it to Duncan, and let him make something happen'.

Shaq was still the next best player in the league after Timmy, tho he was starting to drop off from his 00 levels, and coasting in the RS more. He bullied the hapless Nets, but that's not enough to put him in Duncan territory. He was just more fortunate in his team mates.

KG is an easy #3, even though he's a bit overrated by his more zealous fans. He actually had a better support cast than Duncan this year, but didn't do nearly as much with it.

Prime T-Mac and Dirk are just more impactful players than Kobe, so they get the nod. Both can floor raise and ceiling lift more than Kobe.

[trelos6]

OPOY

1.Steve Nash. Nash in ‘02 became the best playmaker in the league, and a top 5 passer. He led the Mavs to a rOrtg of +7.7. He himself also scored 20 pp75 on +8.2 rTS%. Mavs were also by far and away the best offense in the playoffs. In the playoffs, his scoring dropped to 18, +6%.

2.Shaquille O’Neal. Led the league on 29.4 pp75 and +7 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +4.9 good for 2nd in the league. In the playoffs his scoring dipped to 27.45, +5%.

3.Dirk Nowitzki. The other part of the Mavs historic offense. Dirk was 23.9 pp75 on +7.9 rTS%. Playoffs, his volume was the same and efficiency dropped 2%. I was close to giving KG the nod, for lifting the Wolves to a top 3 offense in the regular season. Also, Gary Payton deserves a shout. Top 2 playmaker, and led the Sonics to a top 5 offense.


DPOY

1.Ben Wallace. Anchored the 8th best defense in the regular season, but best defense in the playoffs. 93 Drtg.

2.Dikembe Mutombo. Anchored the 4th best defense in the regular season.

3.Tim Duncan. Beats out KG. Spurs were again a top 2 defense in the regular season.


POY

1.Tim Duncan. +2.76 OPIPM, +2.92 DPIPM. +5.68 PIPM. 20.14 Wins Added. Timmy was 25.1 pp75 on +5.6 rTS% in the post season, upped his scoring to 27, +3%. Played DPOY level defense to go with that upper echelon scoring.

2.Shaquille O’Neal. +3.76 OPIPM, +2.35 DPIPM. +6.11 PIPM. 17.94 Wins Added. Brought home his 3rd fMVP, and championship. Showed up in 2 important games when down 2-3 vs Kings, going 13-17 and 11-15 from the line in those 2 must win games.

3.Kevin Garnett. +3.04 OPIPM, +2.56 DPIPM. +5.61 PIPM. 17.5 Wins Added. 21.5 pp75 on +1.6 rTS%. Team rOrtg was +4.5 thanks to KG’s elite playmaking and passing ability for a big. Plus, we all know how good KG was defensively. Narrowly missed my ballot for top 3 DPOY, but it was a 4 horse race.

4.Kobe Bryant. +3.14 OPIPM, -2.01 DPIPM, +1.14 PIPM. 9.31 Wins Added. 25.8 pp75 on +2.4 rTS%. Playoffs went 23.9, -0.5%. He was good defensively, despite what DPIPM may tell you. Better defense + Scoring volume + good/great playmaking beats out Nash’s elite efficiency and playmaking.

5.Steve Nash. +2.88 OPIPM, -1.26 DPIPM. +1.62 PIPM. 8.5 Wins added. My OPOY. Beats out A trio of players who had great seasons. Paul Pierce, Dirk Nowitzki and Jason Kidd.

[Djoker]

Either Shaq or Duncan at #1 makes sense to me. I can be persuaded for either to be honest. Kobe and KG both basically shoe-ins to make the ballot for me with Kobe clearly the 2nd best player on his team though.

[LA Bird]

2002 Lakers WOWY
Shaq and Kobe: +9.99 net
Shaq, no Kobe: +13.13 net
Kobe, no Shaq: -0.78 net

Kobe on/off was -3.1 with Shaq on, -1.7 with Shaq off. Without a playoffs like 01, I don't think Kobe being top 5 is guaranteed.

[AEnigma]

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Tim Duncan
2. Ben Wallace
3. Dikembe Mutombo

I generally have Ben and Duncan split this 2002-07 period, and my first point of distinction tends to be playing time. This year, Duncan has the highest minute load of his career and plays 400 more minutes than Ben does. Next year, Ben misses 9 games, and while that gives us a clearer picture of the type of defensive lift he provided to the team, it weakens his case relative to Duncan playing 300 more minutes and winning the title. In 2004, not only does Ben win the title in dominant defensive fashion, but he also plays 500 more minutes than Duncan does. In 2005, the Spurs narrowly survive the Pistons in Game 7 of the Finals, but Ben plays 570 more minutes than Duncan does. In 2006, Ben plays 160 more minutes than Duncan does (and goes a round farther in the postseason). And in 2007, Duncan plays 30 more minutes and wins the title. Some of these are close enough that I think you could swing a different way if you feel there is a definite gap in defensive quality, but I tend to assess these two as extremely comparable year to year based on my interpretation of the various defensive impact metrics available to us (with both being consistently marked in the top three from 2003-06). I think Ben is a little more versatile, so I tend to give him extra marks in a “defensive peaks” comparison, but ultimately that has little to do with my intent to vote Ben as the DPoY from 2004-06.

This year is a little interesting in the sense that Ben’s defensive box score production outpaces most of that year’s raw impact indicators. He only misses two games in both 2001 and 2002, so I do not read too much into that part, but it is worth considering whether his elevated box production merits a higher finish. This is the most productive shotblocking season of Ben’s career, both per game and by rate metrics, and it is a top three defensive rebounding season too (again both per game and by rate). Most box composites treat it as a top three season for Ben, and while he does play less than Duncan does, only 2004 sees Ben spend more minutes on the court. In contrast, there is nothing particularly notable about Duncan’s defensive box score this year, so from that angle one could ask whether a random prime Duncan season deserves DPoY over what could have been Ben’s second best defensive season. After all, even with Duncan playing four hundred more minutes, Ben leads the league in blocks by a comfortable margin, and it is not like we are talking about Marcus Camby or Hassan Whiteside here. I understand that view fine enough… but all the same, if we understand that blocks themselves are not quite equivalent to pure rim deterrence, then that argument has nowhere to go.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Steve Nash
2. Tracy McGrady
3. Shaquille O’Neal

With Nash increasing his scoring volume while maintaining elite efficiency, he is officially in his early NBA prime (although will not become the offensive GOAT until Phoenix). I hold Dirk is high regard and prior to Jokic felt he was the best offensive big in league history. However, no positional stipulation is needed for Nash, and with both in their early prime, I am (mildly) more confident in the value of Nash’s offence. I also suspect there is a bit of misapplication of offensive credit at play in the offensive plus/minus from this period: when Dirk misses 6 games, Nash kept the team afloat with a 4-2 record, and in 2003 and 2004, the Mavericks are 4-3 without Dirk. In the postseason, Dirk obliterates Garnett and the Timberwolves… but Nash maintains much better against the Kings. And while the Mavericks are probably good enough offensively to merit two players on the ballot this year, I would rather spread out the representation— particularly because I am skeptical that Dirk was better than Shaq at this point (as evidenced by their respective series against the Kings) or could provide the type of lift that McGrady did in Orlando acting as the only real source of good offence on that team.

Player of the Year

1. Tim Duncan
2. Shaquille O’Neal
3. Chris Webber
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin Garnett

Was open to taking Shaq here, but needed to see a lot more than what I got. As it stands, Duncan was the demonstrably better player both in the regular season and head-to-head, and losing because Shaq had a fringe top five player as a co-star does not mean I need to pretend they were particularly equal either.

Like most in this community, I am not a fan of Webber. He has mediocre impact signals throughout his entire Kings tenure, and he misses enough time for us to be confident in those signals. The team’s win pace improves by 9 wins with him (+2.7 net) this year, which is a decent signal (and far more complimentary to him than the surrounding years are) but more reflective of a fringe all-NBA player. Overrated passer, ugly scoring approach, frequently low effort defender… Here is the redeeming part, though: not only is he the best player (if not by as much as his reputation suggests) on one of the two best teams this year, but he also manages to directly outplay Dirk head-to-head. Difficult for me to overlook a power forward going up against a Dirk/Nash team and directly outperforming Dirk as a scorer. At that point I cannot put Dirk ahead of him, and Dirk beat Garnett so badly that people still swear Garnett was a nothing special as a defender, so that performance essentially locks Webber in to third place.

On the subject of Garnett: this is the most lopsided the conferences have ever been. By record and SRS, the West had four teams better than the East-leading Nets — who also mounted the weakest opposition of any of the Lakers’ opponents by both record and series net rating — plus another three teams above 3-SRS; every other Eastern team was below 2-SRS. Next year at least I think Kidd is worth considering, because he has a better season (although then again, so do several others) and the Nets are a more serious contender, but I am disinclined to reward a player simply for falling backward into the Finals, and in turn would rather reward Garnett, a top five player who led a similarly good team.

[capfan33]

1. Duncan- While I think it's arguable who was better in a vacuum, Duncan had similar regular season results with worse support and thoroughly outplayed Shaq when they faced each other (although Robinson deserves a shout for slowing down Shaq). The finals don't really move the needle for me given that the Nets might be the worst team to make the finals this century, so Duncan's performance in what was easily 2nd most important series with very minimal help is enough to put him 1 for me.
2. Shaq- Still in his MDE phase albeit with a pedestrian series vs his biggest rival, but the Lakers still won in relatively dominant fashion and he was clearly the best player, so has to be top 2.
3. Chris Webber- While I don't think he was close to the 3rd best player in a vacuum, he played very well in the playoffs and came perilously close to beating the 3-peat Lakers, and with very little else of import in the playoffs I think he has to be 3rd.
4. Dirk- Best player on a historic offense and cooked the **** out of the Wolves and KG (when they matched up with each other), but then proceeded to get outplayed by Webber, so have to put him 4th even though I think he was a better player.
5. KG- Tempted to go with TMac here, but despite his somewhat underwhelming sweep at the hands of the Mavs, dragging that supporting cast to 50 wins and a 4SRS with a #4 offense is too good to leave off the ballot.

[One_and_Done]

1. Duncan- While I think it's arguable who was better in a vacuum, Duncan had similar regular season results with worse support and thoroughly outplayed Shaq when they faced each other (although Robinson deserves a shout for slowing down Shaq). The finals don't really move the needle for me given that the Nets might be the worst team to make the finals this century, so Duncan's performance in what was easily 2nd most important series with very minimal help is enough to put him 1 for me.
2. Shaq- Still in his MDE phase albeit with a pedestrian series vs his biggest rival, but the Lakers still won in relatively dominant fashion and he was clearly the best player, so has to be top 2.
3. Chris Webber- While I don't think he was close to the 3rd best player in a vacuum, he played very well in the playoffs and came perilously close to beating the 3-peat Lakers, and with very little else of import in the playoffs I think he has to be 3rd.
4. Dirk- Best player on a historic offense and cooked the **** out of the Wolves and KG (when they matched up with each other), but then proceeded to get outplayed by Webber, so have to put him 4th even though I think he was a better player.
5. KG- Tempted to go with TMac here, but despite his somewhat underwhelming sweep at the hands of the Mavs, dragging that supporting cast to 50 wins and a 4SRS with a #4 offense is too good to leave off the ballot.

D.Rob doesn't deserve any shout put, not just because his value vs Shaq is overstated, but because he was hurt these playoffs. He played 24mpg in 3 out of 5 games. Duncan was Shaq's primary defensive cover that series.

[ceoofkobefans]

very stacked year if we were doing a top 7 or 10 id have a real rough time making this

POY

1. Shaquille O'Neal

Shaq Duncan is a split decision you can pick either and I'm fine with it. Shaq and TD perform relatively similar in the RS although I'd give the edge to duncan but i think shaq does enough in the PO (especially the finals) to edge out duncan

2. Tim Duncan

Duncan is still on his floor raising **** but the spurs improve their roster adding a 32 y/o Steve Smith Bruce Bowen and a 19 y/o Tony Parker who was middling in the RS but was improved in the PO better showing how good he would be in upcoming years. Duncan has a very strong RS but the lakers still perform slightly better with a +7.7 NRTG and +7.2 SRS compared to the spurs +6.8 and +6.3 (shaq also missed 15 games and the lakers have a horrific big rotation with Samaki Walker Stantislav Mendevdenko and Mark Madsen starting in Shaq's place where they went 7-8 although managed a +3.3 NRTG and +1.9 SRS without Shaq) and Shaq outperforms him in the PO.

3. Kobe Bryant

Kobe has a pretty similar year to 01 but without the crazy PO Rise throughout the PO although he has a very strong finals performance against the best defense in the league in the nets averaging 26.8 PPG and 5.3 APG on 3.8 TPG with a +12(!) rTS% to sweep the nets. I went pretty back and forth between kobe and KG but they have pretty similar statistical footprints this year Kobe is still a better PO performer even in a down year and we see 15 games of kobe leading a lakers team without a shaq (which was worse than the 02 Twolves outside of KG imo) decently well. I see the arguments for KG but I lean Kobe in 02.

4. Kevin Garnett

5. Jason Kidd

for 5th place I was choosing between Kidd AI and Dirk and I really wasn't sure who to pick but i eliminated AI for missing 22 games (although he has very impressive WOWY data taking the 76ers to a 36-24 record, +4 NRTG which is equivalent to a 53 win pace and a -.3 rORTG which would be 16th in the league from a 7-15 record, -4.5 NRTG which is equivalent to a 28 win pace and a -4.4 rORTG which would be 26th in the league without AI) and then with Dirk vs Kidd I think Kidd just has a really impressive floor raising season taking the nets from the lottery to the finals being the best non big defender in the league and arguably the best playmaker (certainly the best passer) and he has the statistical footprint to back him up. I love the two-way value he brings and I think it gives him the edge over Dirk this year

HMs: Dirk Nowitzki, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady

OPOY

1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dirk Nowitzki
HMs: Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady

DPOY

1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Ben Wallace
HMs: Jason Kidd, Alonzo Mourning?

[One_and_Done]

S.Smith was washed. All he could do at that point was hit the open 3s Duncan created. Bowen played 59 games, and without Duncan to create open corner 3s every time he was doubled he was a tough fit for most teams. Parker was a 19 year old rookie, he had a long way to go to be a significant positive player. Even next year he lost minutes in the finals to Speedy Claxton, a journeyman point guard.

[capfan33]

1. Duncan- While I think it's arguable who was better in a vacuum, Duncan had similar regular season results with worse support and thoroughly outplayed Shaq when they faced each other (although Robinson deserves a shout for slowing down Shaq). The finals don't really move the needle for me given that the Nets might be the worst team to make the finals this century, so Duncan's performance in what was easily 2nd most important series with very minimal help is enough to put him 1 for me.
2. Shaq- Still in his MDE phase albeit with a pedestrian series vs his biggest rival, but the Lakers still won in relatively dominant fashion and he was clearly the best player, so has to be top 2.
3. Chris Webber- While I don't think he was close to the 3rd best player in a vacuum, he played very well in the playoffs and came perilously close to beating the 3-peat Lakers, and with very little else of import in the playoffs I think he has to be 3rd.
4. Dirk- Best player on a historic offense and cooked the **** out of the Wolves and KG (when they matched up with each other), but then proceeded to get outplayed by Webber, so have to put him 4th even though I think he was a better player.
5. KG- Tempted to go with TMac here, but despite his somewhat underwhelming sweep at the hands of the Mavs, dragging that supporting cast to 50 wins and a 4SRS with a #4 offense is too good to leave off the ballot.

D.Rob doesn't deserve any shout put, not just because his value vs Shaq is overstated, but because he was hurt these playoffs. He played 24mpg in 3 out of 5 games. Duncan was Shaq's primary defensive cover that series.

25 minutes and 3 games isn't nothing but you are correct, I got this mixed up with past years as well as 70sFans tracking that showed Duncan had some issues with Shaq 1on1.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Tim Duncan
2 - Kevin Garnett
3 - Shaq
4 - Dirk
5 - Jason Kidd

Duncan stats better he wins 58 games with Drob washed and rookie 9 point Tony Parker and he's outscoring Shaq with way better true shooting when he loses. I don't get putting Shaq over unless you're just about FMVPs. Is Shaq is now the DPOY guy?

KG has like no one I know for 50 wins with 21/5/12 and is top 3 on Defense according to everyone every thread. It's not great to be swept 1 round but he scores 24 and his true shooting is higher and he grabs almost 20 rebounds so I'm not blaming KG for it just cause.

Shaq's True shooting is alot higher than Kobes even though Kobe's stats look a teensy bit better and there's the whole gravity thing. I kind of wish someone would show it instead of just saying it.

Dirk did some work in the playoffs but I feel like if Shaq is a better defender and he has the gravity thing and he scores more you have to go with him.

So Kidd's a great defender with 9 assists and 14 points and in the playoffs he carries to his team to the final on 19/9/8? Can't leave that out unless the assists are fake or not all that Bird's.

Defensive Player of the Year
1 - Tim Duncan
2 - Ben Wallace
3 - Kevin Garnett

Offensive Player of the Year
1 - Shaq
2 - Dirk Nowitzki
3 - Tim Duncan

[clearlynotjesse]

We're getting into the good stuff. Call me 00sFan

[B-Mitch 30]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Kevin Garnett

While I think Tim Duncan had a better year overall, Minnesota was by far the best offensive team this season that wasn’t stacked with talent, i.e. the Lakers and Kings. The Timberwolves were in the top 9 of eFG, turnover percentage, and offensive rebounding, while being the 2nd best free throw shooting team in the league, with Garnett stuffing the stat sheet as per usual, and even shooting okay from three.

2. Rasheed Wallace

The Trail Blazers were interesting this season, as they still had much of the talent that nearly got them to the Finals in 2000, but suffered a lot of injuries. Despite this, they were still in the top 10 of the same stat categories as Minnesota, while being better at drawing fouls. Of their starters to play in more than 70 games, Wallace was the best scorer and 2nd best offense rebounder, while being a decent passer.

3. Kobe Bryant

I don’t know if Kobe has quite surpassed Shaq on a per possession basis yet, but he gets this spot for playing in 80 games to Shaq’s 67, while increasing his scoring volume and three-point shooting in the postseason, on his way to winning the Finals.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Ben Wallace

Wallace had the best season of his career out of nowhere this year, leading the NBA in blocks and rebounds, while being 14th in steals, and leading the Pistons into the second round of the playoffs.

2. Tim Duncan

Timmy might not have had the speed that helped Ben create turnovers, but the Spurs were incredible defensively despite Robinson declining and Timmy having little other help. They were 1st in eFG and the most disciplined defensive team besides the Kings. Duncan also did better against the Lakers this season than last season in the playoffs, with the aforementioned lack of help.

3. Paul Pierce

The Celtics were in the top 6 of eFG, turnover percentage, and defensive rebounding, with Pierce leading them in steals and blocks, while being 2nd in defensive rebounding, though 20th overall in the league.

Player of the Year

1. Tim Duncan

Tim hadn’t quite reached his offensive peak, but he was pretty close this season, which combined with his defense and fine playoffs, makes him an easy first choice.

2. Paul Pierce

Pierce was a distant third for defensive player of the year to Tim, but arguably a better offensive player, as the man who would eventually retire 4th in total three-pointers made had his best season from behind the line. He also had a great playoff run, as the Celtics made the Conference Finals and accomplished the biggest 4th quarter comeback in postseason history. In addition, the team had no other efficient starter on the team besides 6.9 points per game man Tony Battie.

3. Kobe Bryant

While Kobe was probably not the best defender on the Lakers, even factoring in Shaq’s missed time, the team was still very good on that front, and winning the championship certainly doesn’t hurt his case.

4. Ben Wallace

Ben was never a good offensive player, but this season was maybe the only time he was above average at it. Besides grabbing a lot of offensive rebounds, his scoring was efficient on very low volume. Even in seasons when he was bad at offense however, his defense more than made up for it, and it was also at its best this year.

5. Shaquille O'Neal

Even though I'm penalizing Shaq a lot for the games he missed, the facts are that he was a force of nature in the playoffs, and the main reason the Lakers beat the Kings (besides bad officiating).

[Narigo]

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Kevin Garnett

While I think Tim Duncan had a better year overall, Minnesota was by far the best offensive team this season that wasn’t stacked with talent, i.e. the Lakers and Kings. The Timberwolves were in the top 9 of eFG, turnover percentage, and offensive rebounding, while being the 2nd best free throw shooting team in the league, with Garnett stuffing the stat sheet as per usual, and even shooting okay from three.

2. Rasheed Wallace

The Trail Blazers were interesting this season, as they still had much of the talent that nearly got them to the Finals in 2000, but suffered a lot of injuries. Despite this, they were still in the top 10 of the same stat categories as Minnesota, while being better at drawing fouls. Of their starters to play in more than 70 games, Wallace was the best scorer and 2nd best offense rebounder, while being a decent passer.

3. Kobe Bryant

I don’t know if Kobe has quite surpassed Shaq on a per possession basis yet, but he gets this spot for playing in 80 games to Shaq’s 67, while increasing his scoring volume and three-point shooting in the postseason, on his way to winning the Finals.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Ben Wallace

Wallace had the best season of his career out of nowhere this year, leading the NBA in blocks and rebounds, while being 14th in steals, and leading the Pistons into the second round of the playoffs.

2. Tim Duncan

Timmy might not have had the speed that helped Ben create turnovers, but the Spurs were incredible defensively despite Robinson declining and Timmy having little other help. They were 1st in eFG and the most disciplined defensive team besides the Kings. Duncan also did better against the Lakers this season than last season in the playoffs, with the aforementioned lack of help.

3. Paul Pierce

The Celtics were in the top 6 of eFG, turnover percentage, and defensive rebounding, with Pierce leading them in steals and blocks, while being 2nd in defensive rebounding, though 20th overall in the league.

Player of the Year

1. Tim Duncan

Tim hadn’t quite reached his offensive peak, but he was pretty close this season, which combined with his defense and fine playoffs, makes him an easy first choice.

2. Paul Pierce

Pierce was a distant third for defensive player of the year to Tim, but arguably a better offensive player, as the man who would eventually retire 4th in total three-pointers made had his best season from behind the line. He also had a great playoff run, as the Celtics made the Conference Finals and accomplished the biggest 4th quarter comeback in postseason history. In addition, the team had no other efficient starter on the team besides 6.9 points per game man Tony Battie.

3. Kobe Bryant

While Kobe was probably not the best defender on the Lakers, even factoring in Shaq’s missed time, the team was still very good on that front, and winning the championship certainly doesn’t hurt his case.

4. Kevin Garnett

Garnett had his usual elite defense as well as being the best offensive player in the regular season. However, the Timberwolves were swept in the first round, hence his placement here.

5. Ben Wallace

Ben was never a good offensive player, but this season was maybe the only time he was above average at it. Besides grabbing a lot of offensive rebounds, his scoring was efficient on very low volume. Even in seasons when he was bad at offense however, his defense more than made up for it, and it was also at its best this year.

What's your reasoning for piece and Wallace being rated over Shaq?

And the Lakers were 7-8 without Shaq in 2002

[OhayoKD]

very stacked year if we were doing a top 7 or 10 id have a real rough time making this

POY

1. Shaquille O'Neal

Shaq Duncan is a split decision you can pick either and I'm fine with it. Shaq and TD perform relatively similar in the RS although I'd give the edge to duncan but i think shaq does enough in the PO (especially the finals) to edge out duncan?

So Duncan has an "edge" when he averages 27 points on 57% true-shooting while Shaq has 27 on 54% true-shooting with 1 less assist and 1 less rebound...but then when Duncan averages 8 more points, 5 more rebounds, and 2 more assists than shaq with the same effeciency gap, Shaq is better?

How did Duncan go from #1 to massively outplaying your #1 and #3 and then fall to 2nd?

[B-Mitch 30]

What's your reasoning for piece and Wallace being rated over Shaq?

And the Lakers were 7-8 without Shaq in 2002

It's pretty simple, Shaq missed a lot of games. I made an exception for this with the same player in 1996-97, but that was mostly because the team saw a huge defensive turnaround.

[One_and_Done]

What's your reasoning for piece and Wallace being rated over Shaq?

And the Lakers were 7-8 without Shaq in 2002

It's pretty simple, Shaq missed a lot of games. I made an exception for this with the same player in 1996-97, but that was mostly because the team saw a huge defensive turnaround.

I don't see alot of consistency in your past voting RE: docking points for injuries, e.g. you voted Eddie Jones in 00 who missed a similar number of games, and only added 4 games of PS value, or your vote for Shaq last year. It seems completely arbitrary as a justification here.

[B-Mitch 30]

I don't see alot of consistency in your past voting RE: docking points for injuries, e.g. you voted Eddie Jones in 00 who missed a similar number of games, and only added 4 games of PS value, or your vote for Shaq last year. It seems completely arbitrary as a justification here.

The injury cut off for me is below 70 games, just to clarify.

[lessthanjake]

very stacked year if we were doing a top 7 or 10 id have a real rough time making this

POY

1. Shaquille O'Neal

Shaq Duncan is a split decision you can pick either and I'm fine with it. Shaq and TD perform relatively similar in the RS although I'd give the edge to duncan but i think shaq does enough in the PO (especially the finals) to edge out duncan?

So Duncan has an "edge" when he averages 27 points on 57% true-shooting while Shaq has 27 on 54% true-shooting with 1 less assist and 1 less rebound...but then when Duncan averages 8 more points, 5 more rebounds, and 2 more assists than shaq with the same effeciency gap, Shaq is better?

How did Duncan go from #1 to massively outplaying your #1 and #3 and then fall to 2nd?

I think this could go either way between Shaq and Duncan, because I think Duncan played better this year but Shaq obviously achieved more. However, in terms of the argument you’re making here, surely you understand that what Shaq did in the playoffs is absolutely not limited to just what he did in the series against the Spurs. The Lakers played two other series after that. Playing really well in the WCF and Finals and winning those series is an extremely big deal! And it is something that Duncan simply does not have on his 2001-02 resume at all. Of course, you might speculate that had Duncan’s supporting cast played as well as the Lakers’ supporting cast in the Spurs vs. Lakers series, then the Spurs would likely have won that series and Duncan probably would’ve played great in the remaining series and maybe won the title. But that’s not what actually happened in reality. What happened in reality is that after the Lakers beat the Spurs (despite Duncan playing great), Shaq proceeded to be fantastic in the conference finals and finals, leading his team to a title. In that context, I think it is perfectly reasonable to give Shaq a playoff edge overall, even though Duncan was better in the Spurs vs. Lakers series. And, more generally, the way I think about it is that Duncan was better in the regular season and was better in the playoffs through the first two rounds and so probably was just a better player that year in general, but Shaq leading his team to the title with fantastic performances in the second half of the playoffs is a really big deal that might overcome all that for POY purposes.