I don't want to say I told you so but...

[fluffernutter]

Until I actually see McInnis play fewer minutes, I don't think the Boykins signing will effect his situation at all, (Please Use More Appropriate Word) as that may be.

I hope, good lord I hope, I am very wrong.

But I suspect anyone thinking McInnis will drop below 25 or 30 min. a game is being optimistic. Without reason to be.

PS: I hope certain people appreciate the two "I's" in the title there.

[Bowens]

I think this is more of an indictment on Raymond. It's apparent the organization doesn't believe in him. I mean, how awful of a point guard are you when you cannot even beat out McMinus?

It's almost guaranteed that next season we will have a new starting point guard. With McMinus and now Boykins, when is Raymond ever gong to get the chance to prove he can run the show? His days are numbered.

[doc.end]

Another "I" thread ...

[fatlever]

from what i saw last night, boykins is still a few weeks away from beating anyone out for minutes. i think it was niave of me to think boykins would be game ready. i dont care how much he was "working out" on his own, you cant duplicate game action.

so what if it does take boykins 2 or 3 weeks to get back to top form? can we really consider him the saviour of our season? do we have 3 weeks to wait? we have to go on a run NOW!

man it would have been nice to make the boykins move a month ago.

or maybe boykins goes nuts on the nuggets tonight... what the hell do i know?

[Paydro70]

That's the thing though Bowens... we know for a fact the team plays better with Ray at point than with McInnis at point. Playing him this many minutes is not a justifiable basketball decision. He is the worst PG in the league, and worse than "replacement level." Meaning any random free agent is better than him.

Earl Boykins is better than that. If, within a week or two (allowing for him to "get used to" playing with Charlotte), McInnis' minutes are not below 10, then we have the dumbest coach in the history of basketball.

[Walt Cronkite]

It takes time to get acclimated to your new teammates/"organization's basketball philosophy".

Boykins provides two helpful options for our favorite squad:

1. With Earl off of the bench we get the boost in bench scoring necessary to go on a tear and make the playoffs.

2. Boykins doesn't play well enough to get us into the playoffs but he allows us to realize a number of things about our coach and/or organization.

Remember, for all of the hate he gets, it was Sam Vincent, not Rod Higgins or Bernie Bickerstaff who called Boykins a month ago. To me, this proves he isn't a fan of McInnis or Felton. By the end of the season, we should know which one because they can't all get minutes.

Would've been nice to sign Boykins shortly after we heard about SV talking to him, but maybe this was a wait-and-see type move by the FO. If by February Sam still thinks the team needs an extra ball handler then we'll sign EB and not a second sooner!

[DaBassSource]

I think this is more of an indictment on Raymond. It's apparent the organization doesn't believe in him. I mean, how awful of a point guard are you when you cannot even beat out McMinus?

It's almost guaranteed that next season we will have a new starting point guard. With McMinus and now Boykins, when is Raymond ever gong to get the chance to prove he can run the show? His days are numbered.

As a Felton fan I would love to see him on a west conf up tempo team...since I doubt we will see that here....

[spectre_]

I really can't wait til this 5'5" chucker who shoots a career 41.6% and 3.4 assists leads us to the playoffs!!!

[Walt Cronkite]

Wow, the 5'5 chucker has a better career FG, 3Pt AND FT %s than the 6'1 chucker!?!?!?!

In 15 less career minutes the 6'1 chucker only gets an additional 3 assists than the 5'5 chucker!? HOLY ****, I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW DRASTICALLY WE JUST IMPROVED OUR BENCH UNTIL NOW, THANK'S SPECTRE!!!

[spectre_]

Great, another poster where it's all about Felton.

I don't remember anyone saying that Felton was going to push us into the playoffs...do you? Boykins has NEVER been known as anything but a chucker and he's not known for passing. Add to that he's been dissed by all the teams, ended up leaving about 2 million on the table because he thought he was a full MLE guy and I have a strong suspicion he's going to mostly be worried about HIS stats.

We needed defense on the perimeter but instead we bring in a HUGE liability instead.

But no doubt...Vincent is right again just like he has been with everything else.

[Bowens]

That's the thing though Bowens... we know for a fact the team plays better with Ray at point than with McInnis at point. Playing him this many minutes is not a justifiable basketball decision. He is the worst PG in the league, and worse than "replacement level." Meaning any random free agent is better than him.

Earl Boykins is better than that. If, within a week or two (allowing for him to "get used to" playing with Charlotte), McInnis' minutes are not below 10, then we have the dumbest coach in the history of basketball.

Well I think the only reason why McMinus gets a lot of minutes is because he doesn't make many mistakes. Now obviously, in order to make mistakes, you need to actually DO something besides dribbling in circles for 20 seconds.

I guess Shiny Head prefers the "safe choice" over someone who will take more chances such as Ray.

[Walt Cronkite]

Spectre, try rereading my post without the blatant hate/bias against that you have for me.

I think Boykins is an upgrade over McInnis. IDK why Vincent plays Felton at the 2, IDK why Bickerstaff did it, but I think last night was a good example. Monta Ellis and Ray Felton only have futures in the league as PGs, but right now their coaches can get away with playing them at the 2 because they aren't LEADERS. I hope Felton becomes a starting caliber pg, I think he should start at the point instead of McInnis, but then either Felton isn't fresh for the 4th, or our 2nd line is incredibly week.

I really, truly believe Boykins is better than McInnis. I have hope still that Vincent, now that there are 3 ball handlers on the team instead of 2, will finally limit Jeff's minutes, play Felton predominantly at the 1 and spell him with Boykins.

But I guess I'm just the Felton hating/Vincent loving poster who wants to see this team improve and maybe try to make the playoffs.

So sorry to interrupt your completely unnecessary jab at Boykins, D00MZ0R

[Bowens]

D00MZ0R

Please don't do that.

[Walt Cronkite]

What? This is an internet message board where the sky is always falling, most of the guys here have to be experiencing increases in high blood pressure following a team--something that is supposed to be a FUN HOBBY.

I don't understand why everyone gets so worked up when we lose, what's the point? Are we going to change anything on the message board or just end up hating eachother???

I try to read posters points and go back and forth, but after one game it's I don't see how this 5'5 career chucker is going to lead us to the playoffs.

Who said anything about Boykins guaranteeing playoffs. I never thought we were a playoff team. Maybe right after the Jrich trade, but I had my doubts then because Boston upgraded their roster with Allen and we were already going to be fighting for a last spot.

I was simply posting the 2 reasons I can see justifiably signing Boykins. If anyone has anything to add, please do. If anyone wants to critique my points (Note:This means you have to actually read them and use some reading comprehension) or tell me how far off base they are--do it. Let's have thought provoking discussion like we used to when we sucked and we knew we sucked and we had a Bobcats posters vs. the World community going on here. Instead, we get another draft pick, pick up Richardson and everyone feels entitled to get wins without attempting to see the bigger picture.

The East is worse than the West, but the East is much improved. We are one of the 10 worst teams in the league, but we still are a good matchup against some clubs. Sometimes we are a TERRIBLE matchup.

Why all of the stress? Hakunna Matatta!!!!

[spectre_]

D00MZ0R

If you're going to throw out an insult don't be a coward and put out something I might recognize.

Try to follow very closely...IT'S NOT ABOUT FELTON BUT ABOUT TEAM NEEDS.

Get that? It's real simple. We can't defend the perimeter and keep opponents out of the paint mainly because of McInnis. The guy couldn't even defend CJ Watson last night. It's been a problem all season long. We struggled under Bernie by playing Felton against the 2s and now we're even worse trying to let McInnis handle them.

Is Boykins going to help that AT ALL???

He pushes the tempo...we get a few more fast break points. Wonderful, we need all the points we can get. Until we can keep a team under 120 ppg however we're not getting much of anywhere. If anything, Boykins compounds that weakness.

[Walt Cronkite]

I don't really know what D00M0RZ means, but I see it on message boards and imagine that it means something like Doom and gloomer, you know, someone that always thinks the sky is falling... or 70%(more?) of this board these days.

Fine. Cut Boykins. Who do we pick up that allows us to play to our ONLY strength (fast tempo offense) and increases our perimeter defense?

That player does not exist.

Therefore, Shinyhead reached out to a player that was a veteran who knows how to play uptempo. We're trying to maximize out offensive output by having him spell Felton instead of no one. I think we'll have Felton at PG and start Mohammed or Carroll depending on the opposing matchups, but we'll still have huge holes in our lineups. We will all season.

We should have kept Watson instead of McInnis, but then everyone would bitch about how raw Watson is. We are a 4th year expansion team that didn't draft that well. We're better than last year, BUT SO IS ALMOST EVERY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE, so it's only a relative improvement.

[Walt Cronkite]

If I had things my way I'd do this:

Felton/Richardson/Dudley/Wallace/Okafor start. Every now and then Carroll or Mohammed starts, but mostly those guys come off of the bench for 20 minutes or so.

Felton plays 30-33 minutes, every second of it pushing the tempo. When he's winded, in foul trouble, cold, whatever we put in Boykins, but he only averages 15-18 minutes, outside shot of 20 if he's REALLY hot (like when he scored 15 points in 5 minutes setting the record for points scored in an OT, not bad for a 5'5 chucker).

McInnis hardly EVER plays, except if we need a larger guard for whatever reason. Mike Redd torching us? Uh... Uh...McInnis, YOU'RE IN! We can't stop the Baron of the Bay? Err...McInnis, go hit em hard!

Dudley/Carroll/Mohammed starting in place of Jeff McInnis would without a doubt have more success because they are in fact, not Jeff McInnis. Carroll becomes ineffective when cold, Mohammed can fall in love with his jumper and has conditioning issues and is often foul prone and Dudley is inexperienced, but most NBA players have their weaknesses.

[spectre_]

From the few games I've seen CJ play with the Warriors he doesn't look that raw at all; in fact I'm pretty impressed with the poise he has been showing.

You can't build a team solely on what our considered strengths are under normal circumstances. Everyone presumes GSW plays no defense and just shoots 3s...not true. Most all of those guys play pretty good team defense. They're fast laterally and they box out and cover. We can't just play offense; we have to show up for defense too. We don't have the consistent scorers to outshoot the other teams (not that it would work anyway) but to compound that we can't stop the other side from scoring either. Even worse, we can't stop the other side from scoring EASILY.

Not that it'd be easy to make Vincent's whacked lineups more productive, but why not go for a SHOOTING GUARD to play the 2? Crazy huh? Alan Anderson would be a huge help for this team as would anyone with length that can stay in front of his opponent. Whoever it would be doesn't have to start or even play significant minutes, but right now we don't even have the option of bringing a guy like that off the bench.

So far as starting groups...ANY of DA/Dudley/Nazr/Hammer is far superior to what we do now.

[Walt Cronkite]

Okay, but we cut Watson. This is a mistake, but it's past us. We should've signed him before GSW did, but we didn't because for whatever reason, we want a vet pg. I think we want a vet PG because we want Raymond to be able to look at someone as a mentor, although I think it's counter productive to not give him the reins in this scenario.

I know you can't build a team solely on what our strengths are. I also believe a championship contender can't be built from the ground up in 4 seasons, especially with poor drafting (please don't assume I'm targeting Felton here. I truly like Felton and want him to succeed b/c we committed to him with the #5 pick, I'm strictly referring to Morrison and May). I am not included in the "everyone" as far as the presumptions about the GSW, if you don't believe my, reference my post from last night when I typed out why I thought we are a terrible matchup for them.

I know we can't just play offense, but I don't think we're going to drastically improve both sides of the ball this season.

I disagree that we don't have the consistent scorers to outshoot other teams. I think we have a good enough post defense that if we had a decent zone scheme where we can limit effective possessions and we can score easily at a high enough rate, then our offense can become one of the best aspects of our defense. I disagree that we don't have the scorers, because I think Emeka and Nazr have both shown success scoring. Wallace and Richardson have shown success scoring. Carroll, Felton, Dudley and Anderson have shown success scoring.

Jeff McInnis has not shown success scoring. Because of this whoever gets the hot hand gets extra pressure because the opposition's defense can get away with not covering McInnis. I truly believe Boykins will make them pay for this, not to mention he ought to get easy buckets in transition.

I don't get why you make a point of playing a SG at the 2. I challenge you to find a post where I have ever defended McInnis starting, forcing Felton to the 2. For example, these are the reason's I've offered for why Felton at the 2 is a bad idea:

-We don't get to see if Felton can play pg or not. He's not getting any younger, how do we know if he can distribute until we give him the keys and let him sink or swim?

-Felton can play uptempo, McInnis can't.

-Felton can't guard as many 2s as he can 1s.

I'm sure there are others, but I'm really becoming flustered here. Is it because I've tried to explain any reasonable theory as why Vincent plays McInnis, because it's a pretty short list of:

-Some PG skill of Felton is lacking and McInnis has this skill (size? Vocal leadership? IDK)

-McInnis is the only other ballhandler on the team (until recently) and Felton is physically incapable of running an uptempo offense otherwise. This is no slight to Felton, only that 48 minutes of running night in and night out would exhaust anyone.

I have time and again noted that our previously most successful lineup was Felton/Carroll/Richardson/Wallace/and one of Okafor/Mohammed.

[spectre_]

Just because I said we need an actual shooting guard to play the 2 doesn't mean I'm calling you out about it. If you notice there's a 5 page thread about getting a wing defender and I think Slam started it after I mentioned the need in a game thread. This is what's been lacking all year. Signing Boykins to me is ignoring that.

You're arguing the point and I'm coming back...that doesn't make this all about "you" nor does it mean I "hate" you. Don't flatter yourself so much.

I mean seriously...who plays defense on this entire squad?

Mek & Crash.


Felton
Dudley
Hollins
DA




Hammer.

McInnis.

Boykins is probably somewhere in between Hammer and McInnis. Crash isn't a consistent lock down defender and Mek is asked to do EVERYTHING in the paint by himself...one of the reasons I advocate playing Nazr in the starting lineup. That's not even mentioning the advantage of more rebounding and having a high & low post guy in there together. That would also move JSwish to the 2. He's not a great defender by any means, but he has height and he's better than any of the other guards we have.

Take a look at Toronto 2 years ago (last year of Mike James) when they led the league in scoring yet sucked on defense...they had like 20 something wins. IT DOESN'T WORK.

I realize this is the 4th season, but what we're not talking about acquiring Raja Bell...we need a defensive minded player who can come in when he's desperately needed. In my opinion that need is a heckuva lot bigger need than a smaller version of what Vincent is wanting Felton to be.

BTW...why do people think Boykins would limit McInnis' minutes when he does exactly what Vincent wants Felton to do...which is be agressive looking for his own offense? Are we going with 2 of those at the same time and not worrying about distribution? Maybe he's planning on using Felton more at the one assuming Boykins can take up the scoring slack?

I'm well beyond the point of trying to rationalize Vincent's idiotic thought process. He needs to show that he has a clue about what he's doing and stop blaming the players.

I think we have a good enough post defense that if we had a decent zone scheme where we can limit effective possessions and we can score easily at a high enough rate, then our offense can become one of the best aspects of our defense. I disagree that we don't have the scorers, because I think Emeka and Nazr have both shown success scoring. Wallace and Richardson have shown success scoring. Carroll, Felton, Dudley and Anderson have shown success scoring.

Not consistently over much more than a game or two. None of our guys have shown that they can consistently go out and put up 25 points regardless of who the other team throws at them (see Artest/Jackson for the latest examples). But even that's not enough; since our defense is so bad we need at least THREE players scoring 20+ points as well good bench scoring...which we seldom get anymore. Odds are we won't, but the one thing we can get better at is DEFENSE. We won't do that however if all we look at adding is more sporadic scoring.