Having a nice debate in the Kidd thread, thought I'd put it in a poll and see where the masses are at.
I'm only offering two paths, because frankly those are the only two I see as reasonable.
1 - Would you rather use some of our secondary assets such as Mo, Charlie and/or our first round pick and add vets that can get us to 40-45 wins over the next two seasons while Yi and Bogut develop? Depending on how well the two young guys develop, they may see 50 wins and the second round.
2 - Blow this current roster to hell, starting with Mo and Redd with the goal of becoming really bad for the foreseeable future? The team strips the roster down and they build around Andrew, Yi and high draft picks the next two seasons while struggling to win 25 games.
One thing is for certain IMO: we can't continue with this current roster and the direction their heading. So for now you get two options in this thread.
Two paths, which do you prefer.
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Two paths, which do you prefer.
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ReasonablySober
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Newz
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I still want to keep Redd and Bogut.
Trade Mo, Yi, CV and our 1st to try and rid ourselves of Simmons and Gadzuric's contracts as well as acquire good talent in return. Mo, CV, Yi and a first rounder (Especially our first rounder) would have enough value around the league to fetch two second tier players.
After that it would be up to the GM to find cheap, veteran role players to put around those guys in an effort to compete.
Trade Mo, Yi, CV and our 1st to try and rid ourselves of Simmons and Gadzuric's contracts as well as acquire good talent in return. Mo, CV, Yi and a first rounder (Especially our first rounder) would have enough value around the league to fetch two second tier players.
After that it would be up to the GM to find cheap, veteran role players to put around those guys in an effort to compete.
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Todd_Day
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all things need to be weighed against Kohl or no Kohl. We've almost reached an impasse in the course of this franchise much like the last straw years of Bud Selig and the Brewers.
At a certain point nothing matters and it doesn't matter who you trade, what alternate jerseys you bring in, or new GMs, it all starts at the top and until our top is amended through new ownership it just doesn't matter.
Kind of puts a damper on our RealGM-ing and speculation but any scenario right now is garbage under the Kohl regime. They'd find a way to muck up bringing Deron Williams, D-Wade, and Amare Stoudamire into Bucks uniforms. For some reason that wouldn't work and would explode under their watch.
Just need to stand pat, keep our Bucks hats on as the faithful, but really just wait it out until Herbie the Love Bug's poison is gone out of Milwaukee.
At a certain point nothing matters and it doesn't matter who you trade, what alternate jerseys you bring in, or new GMs, it all starts at the top and until our top is amended through new ownership it just doesn't matter.
Kind of puts a damper on our RealGM-ing and speculation but any scenario right now is garbage under the Kohl regime. They'd find a way to muck up bringing Deron Williams, D-Wade, and Amare Stoudamire into Bucks uniforms. For some reason that wouldn't work and would explode under their watch.
Just need to stand pat, keep our Bucks hats on as the faithful, but really just wait it out until Herbie the Love Bug's poison is gone out of Milwaukee.
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MajorDad
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I said blow it up because i don't see the core ever being talented enough to win more than 45 games. not now not ever!
and if you are only going to have a team of winning 45 games for the next decade, I would rather just blow it up and start from scratch. I hate continual mediocrity. I believe the memphis GM has the same thoughts.
i used to say tank and draft were the ways to rebuild this team. my reasoning was that no true superstar free agent would ever want to sign to play for the Bucks no matter how much we offered to pay him. I'm not sure if this is true or not. We had the cap money to pay Billups. but he never seriously considered us. With all the trades kobe vetoed, I'd love to see his reaction at a possible trade to the Bucks.
being serious, if the Bucks traded for a star player , would he want to stay? or would he take the first train out of town? if the Bucks acquired J O'Neal or kidd or Carter, would they approach their previous level of play? or would they play to the same level Randy Moss played at while in oakland?
if the Bucks were $20 million under the cap, would Arenas want to sign with the Bucks? This is a big flaw with the grizzlies unloading gashol. yes, after unloading kwame brown, they will have a lot of cap room. but what free agent is going to want to play for the grizzlies? it's one thing t o have a lot of cap room. it's another thing t o have players knocking on your door wanting to play for you.
I noticed C webb never tried to get a contract from the Bucks, when it was obvious we needed him and he could probably start for us. Did harris even bother to give his agent a call? Nelson thinks CWebb is in shape enough to start. but harris didn't think he was an improvement over Yi and CV?
how about a totally revolutionary idea? keep the Pheriperal players and blow up the core? This core is taking us nowhere slow.
and if you are only going to have a team of winning 45 games for the next decade, I would rather just blow it up and start from scratch. I hate continual mediocrity. I believe the memphis GM has the same thoughts.
i used to say tank and draft were the ways to rebuild this team. my reasoning was that no true superstar free agent would ever want to sign to play for the Bucks no matter how much we offered to pay him. I'm not sure if this is true or not. We had the cap money to pay Billups. but he never seriously considered us. With all the trades kobe vetoed, I'd love to see his reaction at a possible trade to the Bucks.
being serious, if the Bucks traded for a star player , would he want to stay? or would he take the first train out of town? if the Bucks acquired J O'Neal or kidd or Carter, would they approach their previous level of play? or would they play to the same level Randy Moss played at while in oakland?
if the Bucks were $20 million under the cap, would Arenas want to sign with the Bucks? This is a big flaw with the grizzlies unloading gashol. yes, after unloading kwame brown, they will have a lot of cap room. but what free agent is going to want to play for the grizzlies? it's one thing t o have a lot of cap room. it's another thing t o have players knocking on your door wanting to play for you.
I noticed C webb never tried to get a contract from the Bucks, when it was obvious we needed him and he could probably start for us. Did harris even bother to give his agent a call? Nelson thinks CWebb is in shape enough to start. but harris didn't think he was an improvement over Yi and CV?
how about a totally revolutionary idea? keep the Pheriperal players and blow up the core? This core is taking us nowhere slow.
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0BobLobLaw0
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cam2win
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I say neither.
I'll take my write in vote...Get a REAL F'in NBA coach in here, and build the team around him or let's see what he can do with a group of guys that individually have some talent. We could also use some vets who are proven winners on this team. I compare this to what we did with George Karl...except get a GM who won't trade the stars for a bunch of NBA journeyman role players. We had talent Dog/Ray and added Cassell who was the final piece. We all know that team should have gone to the finals in '01 and the GM let the coach start messing with a team that was successful, and we haven't recovered since.
Get a proven coach...maybe Rick Carlisle...and let's see how these guys respond. Nobody should be untouchable Bogut-Yi-Mike-Mo included. My hope is they would all buy in as they are the only 4 real NBA players worth anything on this team.
Remove as much dead weight as you can (danny, bobby) and use CV as trade bait.
I've advocating trading Redd most of th e season, but until we get a real proven leader on this team it won't matter.
I'll take my write in vote...Get a REAL F'in NBA coach in here, and build the team around him or let's see what he can do with a group of guys that individually have some talent. We could also use some vets who are proven winners on this team. I compare this to what we did with George Karl...except get a GM who won't trade the stars for a bunch of NBA journeyman role players. We had talent Dog/Ray and added Cassell who was the final piece. We all know that team should have gone to the finals in '01 and the GM let the coach start messing with a team that was successful, and we haven't recovered since.
Get a proven coach...maybe Rick Carlisle...and let's see how these guys respond. Nobody should be untouchable Bogut-Yi-Mike-Mo included. My hope is they would all buy in as they are the only 4 real NBA players worth anything on this team.
Remove as much dead weight as you can (danny, bobby) and use CV as trade bait.
I've advocating trading Redd most of th e season, but until we get a real proven leader on this team it won't matter.
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InsideOut
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The worst place to be in the NBA is a 40-45 win team with no superstar (heck, we haven't even had an all-star in 3? years). You have no chance at a title and by staying out of the lottery you have no chance of drafting one.
82games.com showed that every team that won a title in the past 50 years either had a 1st team all NBA player or 1st team all defensive team player. We have nobody close to either of these. So how do we go about getting one? As was mentioned, in this day and age no great player is ever going to sign as a free agent with the Bucks. The draft is the only hope we have.
Let's also look at history. Cleveland sucked and drafted James and got better. Toronto sucked and drafted Bosh and got better. Portland sucked and drafted several guys and got better. Boston sucked and turned the fruit of sucking into Allen and KG. The Spurs sucked for a year and that lead to several titles with Duncan. Houston sucked and drafted Dream. Chicago sucked and got MJ... I could go on and on showing how bad teams got better in the draft. Now look at the list of 40 win teams that didn't have a superstar yet were able to build a great team. I can't think of any of those. I'm sure it could be done in an LA, Phoenix or Miami where you have a city that great players want to live. Milwaukee is the opposite of that. Great players (Payton) want to get away from us ASAP.
Now let
82games.com showed that every team that won a title in the past 50 years either had a 1st team all NBA player or 1st team all defensive team player. We have nobody close to either of these. So how do we go about getting one? As was mentioned, in this day and age no great player is ever going to sign as a free agent with the Bucks. The draft is the only hope we have.
Let's also look at history. Cleveland sucked and drafted James and got better. Toronto sucked and drafted Bosh and got better. Portland sucked and drafted several guys and got better. Boston sucked and turned the fruit of sucking into Allen and KG. The Spurs sucked for a year and that lead to several titles with Duncan. Houston sucked and drafted Dream. Chicago sucked and got MJ... I could go on and on showing how bad teams got better in the draft. Now look at the list of 40 win teams that didn't have a superstar yet were able to build a great team. I can't think of any of those. I'm sure it could be done in an LA, Phoenix or Miami where you have a city that great players want to live. Milwaukee is the opposite of that. Great players (Payton) want to get away from us ASAP.
Now let
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ReasonablySober
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showtimesam
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I'd be happy blowing things up and keeping yi/bogut and possibly redd.
One move I like is to call up the heat, offer up mo williams and simmons for their expiring contracts and dorrell wright.
From there you can tank the rest of this season, and next year draft a pg and resign wright and ivey.
Rookie PG/Ivey
Redd/Bell
Wright/Mason
Yi/CV
Bogut/Gadz
One move I like is to call up the heat, offer up mo williams and simmons for their expiring contracts and dorrell wright.
From there you can tank the rest of this season, and next year draft a pg and resign wright and ivey.
Rookie PG/Ivey
Redd/Bell
Wright/Mason
Yi/CV
Bogut/Gadz
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trwi7
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Bucks_Revenge wrote:you guys are crazy...stop talking crazy...why are you guys crazy.....
I voted to blow it up. Build around the front court, trade everybody else, tank and build around the young guys. If we're going anywhere they're the ones who are going to take us there.
stellation wrote:What's the difference between Gery Woelful and this glass of mineral water? The mineral water actually has a source."
I Hate Manure wrote:We look to be awful next season without Beasley.
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Sideways
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Blow it up.
I don't see Kohl taking on the kind of contracts it would take to make the present team a contender. If they blow up the team and keep the young core I think we at least have a chance to build though the draft and sign a talent with the cap space (I know they haven't proven they could do this before, but who know's).
I don't see Kohl taking on the kind of contracts it would take to make the present team a contender. If they blow up the team and keep the young core I think we at least have a chance to build though the draft and sign a talent with the cap space (I know they haven't proven they could do this before, but who know's).
SupremeHustle wrote:
Hey, you can ask a donkey to be a horse and it might look the part for a minute but in the end, it's still an ass.
Redd is what he is.
Hey, you can ask a donkey to be a horse and it might look the part for a minute but in the end, it's still an ass.
Redd is what he is.
complete blowup
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yoyomayoma
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complete blowup
My suggestion is a complete blowup. Kohl sells the team to someone who will keep it in Milwaukee. The new owner pays to get a real GM with real power. He finds a coach, blows up the roster to his liking, and drafts and signs players that fit to make a team.
Until this is all done, this team will not succeed. We may win 45 games and win one playoff series but never make a true championship run. As long as Kohl has final say on every move, this franchise is doomed.
Until this is all done, this team will not succeed. We may win 45 games and win one playoff series but never make a true championship run. As long as Kohl has final say on every move, this franchise is doomed.
Re: complete blowup
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ReasonablySober
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Re: complete blowup
yoyomayoma wrote:My suggestion is a complete blowup. Kohl sells the team to someone who will keep it in Milwaukee. The new owner pays to get a real GM with real power. He finds a coach, blows up the roster to his liking, and drafts and signs players that fit to make a team.
Until this is all done, this team will not succeed. We may win 45 games and win one playoff series but never make a true championship run. As long as Kohl has final say on every move, this franchise is doomed.
Been here for seven years and average maybe a post a week, but you make sense when you do. Kudos
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Isocleas2
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I'd blow it up through a number of spaced out trades. My reasoning is that Redd and Bogut make for a **** duo. One has to go in order to better build around the other, and I'd rather take my chances with Bogut.
If a good deal for Redd materializes before the deadline jump on it. A good deal as in 2008+2009 1st round picks and young prospects. Give Mo and Charlie V. some playing time and with Redd out of the picture they should both up their value. We should continue our losing ways and wind up an early-middle lottery pick. Leaving us in the end with Yi, Bogut, and a bunch of prospects to develop or trade at our discretion. Simmons and Gadz's contracts will become easier to move as the years keep ticking off them. If anything has become apparent its that expiring deals are the foundation to any trade involving a high paid star. So while they're liabilities now they'll help down the road.
I know its not flashy and it would certainly hurt attendance, but its probably the only way to build a contender in Milwaukee.
If a good deal for Redd materializes before the deadline jump on it. A good deal as in 2008+2009 1st round picks and young prospects. Give Mo and Charlie V. some playing time and with Redd out of the picture they should both up their value. We should continue our losing ways and wind up an early-middle lottery pick. Leaving us in the end with Yi, Bogut, and a bunch of prospects to develop or trade at our discretion. Simmons and Gadz's contracts will become easier to move as the years keep ticking off them. If anything has become apparent its that expiring deals are the foundation to any trade involving a high paid star. So while they're liabilities now they'll help down the road.
I know its not flashy and it would certainly hurt attendance, but its probably the only way to build a contender in Milwaukee.
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europa
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For the record, I voted with Option 1 because I've never believed the current core was going to get it done. Like Luke, I'd prefer to keep Bogut and Redd, but if Redd can't show the ability to mesh with a Bogut-centric offense than I'm fine with dealing him too.
Something else that is worth noting here if we're going to talk about the Bucks from a historical perspective is the fact they have never contended without an A-list head coach.
Larry Costello
Don Nelson
George Karl
Every time the Bucks have had a weaker head coach (or an absolutely worthless one) they have failed to become a contender.
Just a little more food for thought.
Something else that is worth noting here if we're going to talk about the Bucks from a historical perspective is the fact they have never contended without an A-list head coach.
Larry Costello
Don Nelson
George Karl
Every time the Bucks have had a weaker head coach (or an absolutely worthless one) they have failed to become a contender.
Just a little more food for thought.
Nothing will not break me.
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My theory: What we need IMHO is to keep any players that can have the potential to become good/great at both offense/defense, because then on either side of the court you never feel shorthanded (like you are playing 4 on 5).
Evaluation: I think Bogut's off/def potential is great/great build around him, Yi's potential is great/good - keep him. Redd, CV, and Mo are all great/poor potential trade them. Ruffin, Gadz are poor/great - trade them. CB and Ivey are good/great keep them if possible (or replace them similar strong pieces.) Simmons is tough to judge because I'd like to see him completely healthy, but he seems to be good/good (possibly great/good when healthy) so maybe we can win with him. Mason, at this point is probably good/good and a good energy/team guy off the bench, so keep him or get at least the same in return. Sessions, I don't know, but I think we need a pg that can be close to great on defense so if Sessions can't, trade him.
Trades/free agents:: I'd like to judge anyone incoming to be looked at in this same way so that we don't get stuck with more of these one-dimentional players that other teams are trying to dump because they feel like they are shorthanded when they are playing. Great/Great players are the ones that become successful leaders because they demand respect be being able to dominate, if only at times, on both ends of the floor (Bogut will.) Great/good or Good/great players get respect as well (Yi will.) Detroit has a lot of guys that play at both ends of the court and they seem to be near the top every year.
Coaching: LK will develop into a great coach, he has all of the tools to. I'd only dump him for a guy with tons of winning experience at the NBA level already (Larry Brown.)
Evaluation: I think Bogut's off/def potential is great/great build around him, Yi's potential is great/good - keep him. Redd, CV, and Mo are all great/poor potential trade them. Ruffin, Gadz are poor/great - trade them. CB and Ivey are good/great keep them if possible (or replace them similar strong pieces.) Simmons is tough to judge because I'd like to see him completely healthy, but he seems to be good/good (possibly great/good when healthy) so maybe we can win with him. Mason, at this point is probably good/good and a good energy/team guy off the bench, so keep him or get at least the same in return. Sessions, I don't know, but I think we need a pg that can be close to great on defense so if Sessions can't, trade him.
Trades/free agents:: I'd like to judge anyone incoming to be looked at in this same way so that we don't get stuck with more of these one-dimentional players that other teams are trying to dump because they feel like they are shorthanded when they are playing. Great/Great players are the ones that become successful leaders because they demand respect be being able to dominate, if only at times, on both ends of the floor (Bogut will.) Great/good or Good/great players get respect as well (Yi will.) Detroit has a lot of guys that play at both ends of the court and they seem to be near the top every year.
Coaching: LK will develop into a great coach, he has all of the tools to. I'd only dump him for a guy with tons of winning experience at the NBA level already (Larry Brown.)
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