All-time fantasy league -- Head to head matchups

[penbeast0]

EAST:
Cavs (AJ) vs Lakers (Magicfan4life05) Lakers with home court advantage

Magic (TMU) vs Raptors(wes_wesley) Raptors with home court advantage

Heat(penbeast0) vs Pistons(Warspite) Pistons with home court advantage

Boston(tmac4real) vs Knicks(randomhero) Knicks with home court advantage


WEST:
Nuggets(Myth Breaker) vs Suns(Kosta) Suns with home court advantage

Clippers(trueLAfan) vs Blazers(zong) Blazers with home court advantage

Rockets(Baller 24) vs Mavricks(ss_mav) Mavericks with home court advantage

Golden State(TMACFORMVP) vs San Antonio(mudyez) Spurs with home court advantage


Head to head writeups, arguments and voting here. (Note: please don't post more than one writeup, one counterargument and one rebuttal. If you need to post more, edit your old rebuttal or delete the old one when writing the new one so that we don't have to fight through too much verbiage to find the story)

[penbeast0]

ATL Miami Heat v. Detroit Pistons

Facing off against Detroit

[Kosta]

Walton (26)/Lanier(22)
Haywood (24)/Gus Johnson(24)/M. Lucas
Baylor(38.) /Pressey (10)
Bryant (38.)/McMillan (10)/Westphal
Cousy (32) /Bing (16)


VS




Chamberlain/Eaton
Rodman/Amare/Baker
Barry/M. Johnson
Miller/Bell/Buse
Billups/Robertson

Myth's counter adjustment line-up:

Chamberlain/Eaton
Amare/Baker
Rodman/M. Johnson
Barry/Miller/Bell
Billups/Robertson/Buse

Note: My game plan and positional breakdown of players was based on Myth's original line-up. He's made adjustments now, he had ample time to make these changes well before write-ups started in the roster thread, but chose not too. I've added some extra thoughts at the bottom of my post going over all of these sudden changes.


EDITED: Several times over and over to keep adding new information throughout the week, I was one of the first to post a write-up so I've had time to continue adding. 15+ edits alone have been on grammatical errors. But mostly because of the Nuggets line-up changes I've had to add in additional positional match-ups, minutes, breakdowns and new strategies to my offensive/defensive game plan because of it. Also I've provided my arguments to refute Myth's fallacy statements on Cousy. I've tried to make it easier for the judges having it all in one post and complying with the 1 write-up/counter argument/rebuttal (in place to avoid too many posts in here) to save you guys from all the clutter. The quotes I have posted are all taken from Myth's posts in this thread, so you can be assured of there accuracy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Starting 5:

Code: Select all

(Phoenix Suns 5 year peak totals)

Cousy (52, 54, 55, 58, 59)- 20/5.9/8.5 (eFG-50.5%)
Kobe (2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007)-30.6/5.4/6/1.7(S) (eFG-57.2%)
Baylor (58, 59, 60, 62, 63)-29.7/15.5/4.4 (eFG-53.9%)
Haywood (69, 71, 72, 73, 75)-25.7/14/2.3 (eFG-54.6%)
Walton (75, 76, 77, 83, 84)-15.2/11.7/3.7/2.2(B) (eFG-55.6%)

Bing (67, 68, 69, 72, 73)-22.9/4.2/6.8 (eFG-53.8%)
Lanier (71, 72, 73, 74, 75)-23.5/13.2/3.7/2.2(B)73/75 (eFG-55.3%)
Gus Johnson (63, 64, 66, 67, 70)-18.8/13.7/2.8 (eFG-52.8)
Paul Westphal (75, 76, 77, 78, 79)-22.6/2.4/5.6/1.8(S)(eFG-56.6%)
Paul Pressey (84, 85, 86, 87, 88)-13.9/4.8/7.1/1.8(S) (eFG-57.6%)

Maurice Lucas (75, 77, 78, 81, 82)-18/11/2.7 (eFG-53.8%)
Nate McMillan (86, 87, 88, 89, 93)-6.5/4.6/7.7/2.1(S) (eFG-54%)


First off, great team Myth has built, although I believe he could have used his players better by playing them at their natural positions. Nonetheless this will be tough to win but the Suns shall prevail in this spot.

Match-ups:

Chamberlain vs Walton: One of the G.O.A.T in Chamberlain, this is a real tough match-up for me, Wilt is a beast, not else much needs to be said, prolific scorer and rebounder. But a prime Walton will put up a battle in this spot and will be able to do some damage offensively with his great passing and intangibles. Bob Lanier will also get his fair share vs Wilt. Still, big advantage Nuggets.

Chamberlain vs Lanier: This match-up will bring me closer on the physical side of the game vs Wilt. I should get better rebounding, similar shot blocking and post scoring with Lanier. 48 minutes of Walton and Lanier who will both be fresh and more effective vs Wilt is as good a combination as you'll get against Wilt. And both will get quality touches and playing time on my team, so neither will feel out of rhythm here.

Rodman vs Haywood: This is an offense vs defense match-up, Rodman, great rebounder, and an All NBA defender, he will give Haywood a lot of trouble. But he's not a threat offensively and also comes with baggage and questionable characteristic traits. No question Rodman brings positive value to his team, the good far outweighs the bad. Spencer is a force scoring and rebounding, 26-14 in his prime, he once put up 30/20 as a rookie in the ABA. This match-up is real close, I'm going to say no advantage either way. Even.

or


Amare vs Haywood: This match-up on paper looks quite even, and it really is close. I'd say they're about even in the scoring, Amare being the more efficient scorer (Steve Nash). Haywood was the better rebounder by far, from '69-'74 he posted 19.5, 12, 12.7, 12.9, 13. 7 rebounding averages. Amare's highest rebounding season was in '06 at 9.6 per. It's been noted that Haywood's numbers look better because of the pace he played in with the Sonics back in the early '70's. But to me this doesn't hold much water when you're comparing him to Amare Stoudamire who has played with Nash and the Suns his entire career. Slight edge Suns.

or


Rodman vs Baylor: Now this brings Dennis out of the post and on the perimeter against one of the most craftiest offensive players ever. I like this to my advantage as this takes away from Rodman's post defense and rebounding dominance up front. Not to underrate Rodman being able to guard the small forward spot, because he was more than capable of guarding multiple positions over his career. But Elgin Baylor is a whole different class, it's one thing to ask Rodman to switch and help guard on the perimeter at times, another thing to give him the full time task of guarding a player like Baylor for near 40 minutes. Rodman will give Baylor trouble, but he won't be nearly as effective as he would have been playing the power forward spot. Advantage Suns.



Baylor vs Barry: Battle of the offensive juggernauts, these guys can straight light it up, no doubt about it. Barry was a great shooter and scorer, also a good rebounder for his size and could create plays for others. Elgin also a prolific scorer, really a complete offensive force, could score from anywhere on the floor with a full array of moves. The greatest rebounding small forward of all-time, he could also post you up like a 4 and get to the line effortlessly. Baylor gets the advantage here, he did everything Barry did, just better. Advantage Suns.

or

Kobe Bryant vs Rick Barry: I like this even more than Reggie Miller guarding him. Rick can't keep up at the guard spot, he played the forward spots in his prime and was most effective at the 3/4. Kobe will have more of a challenge defensively now, but this match-ups heavily favors the Suns on both ends of the floor. Kobe being a fantastic prolific two way player will outplay Barry (who is playing out of position) by a significant margin at the 2 spot. There's a reason Rick Barry never played the SG spot over his carrer, because he couldn't match up defensively! This in turn will wreak havoc for the Nuggets big man defenders as Kobe will blow by Barry repeatedly. And if the Nuggets plan to double Kobe with Billups, this will leave Cousy an open lane to the basket as well, and we all know how great Kobe is at reading a double and passing to the open guy. Cousy once shot 32 free throws in a division semifinal game vs the Syracuse Nationals, the Cooz could get into the lane and either finish or draw a foul with the very best and could also burn you from the outside if you left him open. Fairly large advantage.

or

Bryant vs Miller: This match-up is all about Kobe, all day, all the time, nothing against Reggie. Kobe is one of the G.O.A.T, don't matter what era he's played in and all that smack, his resume speaks for itself, he's a champion. Offensively, defensively, intangibles, you name it, Kobe wins this hands down. But again not to say Reggie Miller wasn't a great player, one of the best shooters ever, he was also underrated putting the ball on the floor and was as clutch as they come when the Pacers needed a big bucket. It's just that Kobe outclasses him here. Kobe is possibly the best two player in basketball today, his combination of scoring, shooting, passing, ability to get to the line and finish after contact makes him unstoppable offensively. On defense his quickness and strength makes him a great perimeter defender as well as a capable post defender, as well as a solid rebounder. Combine all that with his leadership and clutch play and you can't stop the guy. Advantage Suns.

Cousy vs Billups: Two different point guards, one more of a shooter/scorer, the other a playmaker. Bob Cousy doesn't get the respect he deserves in all-time rankings, hopefully that's not the case in this competition. As a playmaker there was no other outside of Magic. Coz was the Houdini of the Hardwood, and contrary to what skeptics say, he was considered a good shooter and defender in his era. 20/6/9 in his prime with over 50% eFG, he shot a low percentage from the field, but he got to the line mercilessly making up for it. Billups is a solid point guard, he helped lead the current Pistons to a championship, Mr. Big Shot is clutch and also plays tough D. Probably a top 5 point in today's NBA. But with all due respect to Chauncey, Coz is an all-time great, we're talking 13 All-Star appearances, 10 1st All NBA selections, seven top 10 MVP voting finishes, 1 MVP and 6 championship rings with the Boston Celtics. Advantage Suns.

Something I'd like to add about this match-up, Chauncey Billups has had trouble guarding smaller/faster/quicker guards in the past, for example a guy like Tony Parker in 2005 finals and over his career has had very good success against Billups. Cousy was similar in that his game was all about getting into the lane and either finishing, drawing a foul or kicking it out to shooters. I don't believe Billups will be able to stop the penetration and Coz's ability of breaking down the defense puts Wilt in a vulnerable position picking up fouls.

Another factor Cousy brings to the team is his great leadership characteristics, you don't help lead a team to 6 championships without overcoming great adversity. Cousy was right up there with Russell leading those great Celtic teams.

Bob Cousy knows how to beat Wilt Chamberlain as his Celtic teams proved before.

I ask the judges to please watch this video package of highlights I put together of Cousy before I go over Myth's bogus claims.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1zWW0uIkAU

Myth wrote:

How can you expect 6-1 player with average athleticism and set shot get any meaningful scoring averages at all in today

[TMACFORMVP]

First off I'd like to say mudyez, you've created a great team and could go either way. May the best team win

San Antonio Spurs (mudyez)

PG-Pete Maravich/Sam Cassell/Kenny Anderson
SG-Chris Mullin/Manu Ginobili
SF-James Worthy/Steve Smith
PF-Charles Barkley/Danny Manning/Connie Hawkins
C-Shaquille O'neal/Arvydas Sabonis

Golden State Warriors (me)

PG-Kevin Johnson/Norm Van Lier
SG-Ray Allen/Rip Hamilton
SF-Scottie Pippen/Eddie Jones/Toni Kukoc
PF-Shawn Kemp/Elton Brand/Paul Silas
C-Hakeem Olajuwon/Elmore Smith

EDIT-Position by Position Analysis

PG-Kevin Johnson vs. Pete Maravich.
Like mentioned before in my offensive comparison, I'm just not sold on Maravich being a PG. He was rather poor defensively, and extremely turnover prone especially compared to KJ who was a far more prolific passer and though turnover prone at times not to the extent that Maravich was. And considering the grand scheme of things, Maravich was a higher volume scorer, but KJ's efficiency and still 20+ point per game output makes him the better player on both ends of the floor IMO.

Edge: Golden State

SG-Ray Allen vs. Chris Mullin
Mullin was probably the better player overall, but considering the roles each player have on their respective teams (shooting), it's almost a dead wash. Allen is second all time in three pointers made and much more prolific behind the arc (career average of 2.4 threes made per game) compared to Mullin's career average of 0.8 three pointers made per game. Mullin surprisingly enough in the prime of his career (excluding the last season) shot a relatively low amount of three point attempts at not at the percentages you'd expect from such a great shooter.

Edge: Wash

SF-Scottie Pippen vs. James Worthy
Worthy was a big time player, nearly 20 points, 6 boards and 2 assists on high efficiency but Pippen was just the better player. Was the better scorer considering his all around offensive arsenal (including the three point shot which is important for both of our teams), a MUCH better defender (Pippen is arguably the GOAT defender at his position), better passer and just a better all around player in almost every facet of the game.

Edge: Easy edge to Golden State

PF-Charles Barkley vs. Shawn Kemp
Kemp was good and he has all the tools to defend Barkley who might have to change his game to more perimeter oriented with Shaq clogging up all the space in the post, but Barkley's easily got the advantage. Better scorer, passer and rebounder. Only edge Kemp really has was he was a slightly better man defender and a superior weakside shot-blocker.

Edge: Easy edge to San Antonio

C-Shaquille O'neal vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
One of the toughest comparisons to really decide between. Could go either way, literally. Hakeem had the greater defensive impact while Shaq had the greater offensive impact. Both were comparable rebounders (slight edge to Hakeem) and passers. I think in a head to head matchup though, Hakeem would do a better job on Shaq, then Shaq would do on Hakeem which leads me to believe Hakeem would have the slightest edge possible in this series. Especially in terms of team defense and guarding the pick and roll.

Slight edge to Golden State

Bench
I really do respect SA's bench, Ginobili and Smith can really put up some points and Sabonis off the bench with his all around play is pretty intimidating, but I think I have the edge here.

Van Lier was one of the best defensive PG's of all time and a very good orchestrator of the offense (over 10 assists) and easily has the edge over Cassell IMO factoring in overall contribution on both ends. Jones-Ginobili in their prime is pretty much a wash, Ginobili provides more of an all around game while Jones arguably provides better defense and floor spacing. Steve Smith and Rip Hamilton are essentially a wash considering the roles they have off the bench, and Paul Silas/Elton Brand have the edge both defensively and offensively over Manning and Hawkins. Sabonis was probably the better player overall, but Smith was the better rebounder and defender.

Overall like the starting lineup, comparable offensively but the edge defensively.

Edge: Golden State


Offensive Comparison
Talent wise, mudyez has probably got me, but fit wise, I think my team might be more efficient offensive team. I was never really sold on the idea of Maravich at the PG honestly speaking. He was noted as being a selfish player at times and very turnover prone (first season they recorded turnovers on the downfall of his career, he averaged an exact 5.0 turnovers per game).

KJ on the other hand was one of the more underrated PG's to have ever played. Very efficient offensively and put constant pressure on the defense with his penetrating game. Only player in NBA history to have ever averaged over 20 points/10 assists/2 steals on over 50% from the field. The three point shot wasn't part of his game but like mentioned, the one season he took significantly more than his season average he made nearly 90 threes on over 40% distance.

Offensively with Shaq and Barkley being somewhat liabilities in terms of defending the pick and roll, that'll be my bread and butter move with KJ and Kemp/Hakeem pick and rolls whenever in need of a key bucket.

Pippen was one of the greatest play-makers at his position, with his length he was able to see over the defense and make the right play. Could slash to the rim and knock down the open three. Hakeem will obviously be the focal point of my team offensively. Can play from either the high post or the low post and terrific passer as well. Allen is a Top 5 shooter to have ever played with 4 seasons of OVER 200 threes and that's being one of the focal points of the offense. Kemp will be more the around the basket/pick and roll type of offensive player. Fantastic finisher, decent mid-ranger and in the right spot at the right time.

Offensively Shaq/Barkley is just NASTY but I do think their games could interfere at times. Shaq was a guy that took up a lot of space in the post, and though Barkley was definitely capable of going outside and knocking down the mid-ranger, that's not fully taking advantage of his bread and butter move backing down opponents and just over-powering his defender, much like Shaq. I'd much rather Barkley taking mid-rangers than playing in the post where he's most effective, but incapable of doing since Shaq literally takes up the whole paint area.

He has more talent on the offensive end, but like TrueLA mentioned, there's only a certain amount of possessions that can be taken in a game, and due to what I feel my team having a better fit and roughly similar efficiency wise, it's a wash IMO.

Defensive Comparison
With the offense being roughly the same, this is where I feel I pull away. Hakeem is arguably the greatest defender of all time at the C position after Russell, and Pippen is one of the best perimeter defenders to have ever played. He'd be playing a guy like Mullin (though primarily on Worthy since he was a streaky player) and definitely make him work hard for his points.

KJ is regarded at least a solid defender, he has the quickness to stay with anybody and can get into the passing lanes. Kemp brings a tough physical nature, a guy that could rebound and block shots at a high rate. With a less of an offensive role, he'd be a more complete defensive player on my team IMO. He has all the tools with the quickness and athleticism.

Shaq's an underrated defender, anchored great defensive Laker teams, but he's shown he's been a poor pick and roll defender throughout his career and guys like Maravich, Mullin, Barkley and even Worthy to some extent weren't really known as *great* defenders. Off the bench, Ginobili is a good defender, but it's arguable a guy like Jones was even better (3 time all-NBA defense). Van Lier was one of the best defensive PG's to have ever played (7 time All-NBA D) and Elmore Smith was one of the most prolific shot blockers ever. Nearly 5 blocks per game in one season, has the highest Dtrg of any player. Brand with his long arms and deceptive athleticism is also a very good defender (6 straight years of over 2 blocks per game as well). Silas was a great rebounder and also a 5 time All-NBA D player and Rip Hamilton has shown over the course of his career, he's also an above average defender.

I think I have virtually the defensive advantage at every position.

EDIT- Just in case Barkley does become a problem, I have no problem giving Brand or Silas more burn considering they are better defenders and also still a force offensively (more-so Brand since he's a great pick and roll player with his mid-range jump-shot).


Overall, I feel I'm comparable on the offensive end, but take the edge on the defensive end.

[TrueLAfan]

Clippers vs. Blazers

First--I like your team, zong...you've picked some great players. But you'll come up short here.

Clippers lineup/rotation

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Buck Williams
Bobby Jones
Joe Dumars
Gary Payton

Michael Cooper
Tayshaun Prince
Horace Grant
Brad Daugherty

Suns lineup/rotation

Artis Gilmore
Tim Duncan
Ron Artest
George Gervin
Mo Cheeks

Paul Pierce
Tim Hardaway
Charles Oakley
Peja Stojakovic
Carlos Boozer

Matchups--

C--Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Artis Gilmore. I'm a big Gilmore fan; he's an underrated player. I'd put him in the top 10 Cs of all time, no question...he's near the top 5, IMO. Unfortunately, he's going against #2 or #1. It's one of the things where Kareem has him beat virtually across the board. Kareem is the better passer...although Artis was good at this in the ABA, Kareem got about 50-70% more assists. Artis was a good defender; Kareem was better. Artis was among the most efficient scorers of all-time in his later years...but he wasn't was good overall. When he was at his peak, his FG% and TS% are about even or even slightly below Kareem's. Artis does have a very slight edge in rebounding...it's about 19.5 to 18.2. But that doesn't offset the other stuff...or the scoring. Kareem is scoring 7 more points a game. It's all about the Cap here.

PF--Buck Williams vs. Tim Duncan. Duncan is better. But Buck is more competitive than you might think. Buck is a very slightly better rebounder. He shoots considerably better from the field and is more efficient as a scorer. Duncan is, of course a better defender...but Buck Williams is no slouch on the defensive end. I wanted a tough guy inside that was active and unafraid to be physical, and that's Buck Williams. You compare starting frontcourts...it's more or less dead even in scoring, rebounding, and assists. I'd say it's about even in D, too. Kareem and Buck are more efficient on offense. Great players on both sides--a terrific frontcourt matchup.

SF--Bobby Jones vs. Ron Artest. Not close. You've got two players that are polar opposites in temperament and approaches to the game...and both favor Jones in a big way. Bobby Jones was all about the team; an unassuming guy that was one of the greatest defenders of all time...who also happened to rebound like a PF (when young), and shoot close to 60%. He's often said to be one of the great teammates in basketball history. Artest is a great defender who's a head case and a poor percentage shooter. Jones has him beat in every conceivable way.

SG--Joe Dumars vs. George Gervin. Gervin is one of the great volumes scorers in history. He's a better rebounder. Dumars is better at...well, pretty much everything else. Often much better. Much better range. Much better defender. Better passer. Better free throw shooter. Fewer turnovers. Smarter player. And on a team with two interior players taking 30-35 shots a game, will Gervin get the same # of shots off? You have to hope so. I want the range, the D, the great passing and smart play. the 19 or so ppg is plenty enough for my 2b scoring option. Joe D is my man here.

PG--Gary Payton vs. Mo Cheeks. Mo Cheeks is a terrific player--smart player, great defender, high percentage shooter, great passer. But Payton is better. They're equal (at a high level) as playmakers. Cheeks is a higher percentage shooter but lacks a three point shot...Payton has better range, and draws more fouls. Payton is simply more of an impact player on offense; he's my 2a option on offense, just as he was in his playing days. Payton is a bigger, better defender...much more of an impact player on that end. You go with the Glove here.

Bench--We've got it here, for a simple reason. The Blazers run out of shots. Gilmore (16), Duncan (17.5), Artest (14), Gervin (21), and Cheeks (10) take up close to 80 shots a game. The Blazers have 10 to 12 shots a game left, max. Pierce, Hardaway, Peja...those guys are shooter and/or high usage players. How good are they without shots? My team scores enough and defends like madmen. They're more efficient. They're better.

Chemistry and Miscellaneous--Artest is a problem here. Like I said, the Blazers run out of shots (although not by as much as other teams will). You get around that by having starters and/or very hig rotation players shoot slightly less. The place to start is with your least efficient offensive player...in this case, Ron Artest. But how will Ron Artest respond to having his shots cut by, say, 20%? if you don't cut his shots, you're taking shots from better scorers and the bench. It's not going to work without problems from a chemistry and/or shot point of view.

There's the range issue too. Artest has it...but he's the guy who should shoot less. Gervin doesn't really have it. Mo Cheeks doesn't have it. Peja and Hardaway and Pierce have it...but how will they get shots? And they're bench players anyway; the Blazers' starters can't spread the court as efficiently as they need to on offense. This will allow backcourt players to double down on help D for steals..and, by coincidence, my team is extraordinarily good at this. Jones's length, in particular, will hamper a team that doesn't play as much behind the three point line.

I'm thinking I might put Dumars on Cheeks, and let Payton guard Gervin. Payton's tough man D and sharp tongue got to players; Gervin was a nice guy and great scorer, but not a cerebral player. I think the Glove can get to him.

Essentially, we've got more D, more range, and more efficiency with plenty of scoring (no team that has a three prong scoring punch of Kareem, Payton, and Dumars is going to have problems on the offensive end), to go with fewer chemistry issues. That adds up to a W.

[Myth_Breaker]

OK, I don

[A.J.]

PG Nate Archibald/Allen Iverson
SG Michael Jordan/Bob Love
SF Dominique Wilkins/Bruce Bowen/Jamal Mashburn
PF Kevin McHale/Jermaine O'Neal
C Yao Ming/George Mikan/Kevin Willis

vs


PG Isiah Thomas/Marc Jackson
SG Mitch Richmond/Doug Christie
SF Bernard King/Robert Horry
PF Bob Pettit/Shawn Marion/Clifford Robinson
C Patrick Ewing/Rasheed Wallace/Zelmo Beaty

Matchups

PG- Archibald and Iverson vs Thomas and Jackson
The reason I aquired Archibald is because I need his grrat playmaking and shooting to go with Yao and MJ. He is unstoppable in the open court due to his lightning speed. He is a great penetrator also. Against Isiah he will have to bring the tougness Isiah already has and it should be a good matchup. Allen Iverson is an all around scorer. Even though he doesnt shoot for a good range he still finds ways to score which is the exact reason why he is my 6th man. He brings instant offense, but he lacks defense. And against Jackson, Iverson will have to play defense to match up with Jackson's playmaking skills.

Edge- tie


SG-Michael Jordan and Bob Love vs Mitch Richmond and Doug Christie.

Michael Jordan does it all. Score, play defense, you name it. He should have no problem scoring against Mitch Richmond. Bob Love is one of my secret weapons. He is versatile who can shoot either left or right handed. He is a pure scorer who can play defense in a jiff. Against Christie he should have no problems scoring and guarding him.

Edge- Cavs

SF-Dominique Wilkins, Bruce Bowen and Jamal Mashburn vs Bernard King and Robert Horry

Wilkins is a highlight reel waiting to happen. He is a good scorer and excellent dunker. But his main problem is playing defense and against King you have to bring it on the defensive end. Bowen is my defensive stopper. I could insert him in the lineup to guard King, but I prefer to have him on the bench to guard Horry. Big Shot Bob is a good 3 point shooter and Bowen can guard well on the perimeter. Not to mention on occasions he can hit the corner 3. Mashburn is my insurance policy just in case Bowen or Wilkins gets in foul trouble, that way I can use a 3 man rotation.

Edge- Cavs

PF- Kevin McHale and Jermaine O'Neal vs Bob Petit, Shawn Marion and Clifford Robinson

McHale is a perfect fit for my team beacuse of his offense post moves to go alone with Yao. He is a great shooter in the post and is a standout defensive player including a great shot blocker. He is by far my best defensive player in my lineup and against Pettit he will have to play hard nosed defense. Jermaine O'Neal is a gifted offensive player in the post. Againt Marion he can use his post skills to score agaisnt him. He might will have a problem against Robinson in a way that Robinson shoots the 3, but he should be alright.

Edge- Cavs

C-Yao Ming, George Mikan and Kevin Willis vs Patrick Ewing, Raseed Wallace and Zelmo Beaty

This should be a good matchup. Yao is a great post center and Ewing is a good defensive C. I have to give the edge to Ewing in this matchup. Bob Mikan is a pure defensive player. He scores well with his nasty hook and he should be able to score against Wallace. He also should be able to block his shot also. Kevin Willis is a smart player who deserves a spot on my team. He wont give you alot of points, but he scores and rebounds well.

Edge- Lakers


P.S.- May the best man win

[Teddy KGB]

TrueLAfan i really liked your setout so i'm going to steal your format, i hope you don't mind.

Mavericks vs. Rockets

Mavericks lineup/rotation

Willis Reed/Bill Laimbeer
Karl Malone/George McGinnis
Grant Hill/Billy Cunningham
Dale Ellis/Bill Sharman
Oscar Robertson/Sam Jones

Other: Dan Issel, Josh Howard

Rockets lineup/rotation

Alonzo Mourning/Vlade Divac
Elvin Hayes/Chris Webber
Larry Bird/Rodney McCray
Clyde Drexler/Michael Finley
Lenny Wilkens/Terry Porter

Matchups--

Note: As Baller has proposed to put Drexler on opponents' PGs, I will refer to Drexler as a PG here for simplicity sake.

C--Willis Reed vs Alonzo Mourning

I really respect 'Zo as a player but I really don't see any possible way that he can be considered better than the Captain. Willis Reed was the consummate leader and a very inspirational one at that [most important 4 points ever scored]. On top of this, Reed is simply a flat out better player. On offense, Reed could go down on the block or out to 15-20 feet from where he had an automatic jumper. Now, 'Zo is/was a terrific defender around the rim but once he's taken away from the hoop and to the perimeter, his strength [shotblocking] is taken away. This means that while he will still be a good defender, he won't be able to provide help D nearly as well unless he leaves Reed open from an area where Reed is automatic. On defense, Mourning got by with a very bullying style, muscling his way past defenders. However, Reed was extremely strong and was not even pushed around by Wilt or Kareem so he definitely won't be pushed around by Mourning. Mourning pretty much has no offensive game from outside the paint so he will be large ineffective on offense in this series.

Edge: Large edge to Mavericks.

PF--Karl Malone vs. Elvin Hayes

Here is a matchup I would love to watch, two of the game's greatest PFs ever going at each other. However, Malone was just too strong. Malone was built like an ox and then some, I don't think I ever saw Malone get pushed around in his amazingly long career. Nor did I ever see him fail to get to the rim or near either by posting up or off the pick n roll with Stockton. Now, Stockton was really good at the PnR but Oscar was even better at PnRing and with Hayes not being a stalwart defender Karl Malone will easily go off with regularity in this series. I would expect somewhere between 28-35 ppg from the Mailman in this series. On defense, Malone was an All Defensive 1st team selection 3 times and would cause Hayes a lot more problems than Hayes would cause him. For a start, Hayes would be kept out of the paint because Malone was both faster and stronger. Now, Hayes did have a deadly turn around jumper, but I would much prefer him to be relying on jumpshots contested by Karl Malone than demolishing my team from the post. Another note, Malone got to the line so damn often that Hayes would bound to be in foul trouble.

Edge: Large edge to Mavericks.

SF--Grant Hill vs. Larry Bird

Not much to say here. Larry Bird is possibly the best player in this series, a clutch monster who did whatever the hell he wanted without anyone being able to stop him. Grant Hill, however, was a superstar in his own right throughout the '90s and coupled tenacious D with an offensive reminscent of Larry Bird's minus the 3 point shot. I don't expect to stop Larry Legend because no one ever stopped him, but I think that Grant Hill can at least cause him some annoyance and force him to work hard defensively.

Edge: Large edge to Rockets.

G--Dale Ellis vs. Lenny Wilkens

Baller has stated that he will put Wilkens on opponent SGs and I think that Wilkens will be the weakest link on his team. My team has a really tall backcourt [Ellis 6'7", Oscar 6'5"] and Wilkens' size will be a real disadvantage to him here. It doesn't matter how good a defender Wilkens was [he wasn't good anyways] when you account for the fact that Ellis was half a foot taller and would just shoot his flawless jumpshot over Wilkens. Ellis also had about 30 pounds on Wilkens and a very good back to the basket game, so Wilkens will also be posted up mercilessly in this series. Against any other backcourt Wilkens would be fine defensively, but not against mine. However, I will give props to Wilkens' playmaking abilities which were really good, but not as good as my PG's .

Side note, Oscar will be on Wilkens on the defensive end with Ellis on Drexler.

Edge: Edge to the Mavericks.

G--Oscar Robertson vs. Clyde Drexler

Feels weird to say that there's a matchup in which Clyde would be dominated, but this is such a matchup. Oscar did everything Clyde did except he did it better. He was a better scorer by a decent margin [that's without a 3 point line too], a much better rebounder and of course his court vision was just overwhelmingly superior. Drexler was possibly the better defensive player, but he was more of a pickpocket than a Bowen-esque lock down man defender. Oscar will simply work him to 10 feet and then if a double team comes he'll pass to the open man and if it doesn't come then he'll knock down the close range jumper in Clyde's face. Also will be running the Pick n Roll with Karl Malone and the Pick n Pop with Reed, neither of which the Rockets have the personnel to stop. Essentially, I see Oscar as unstoppable in this series simply because the Rockets have crappy perimeter D [i dunno why baller thinks wilkens and drexler were amazing defensive players, both were average at best]. Clyde will be effective on offense with Dale Ellis on him, but his trips to the rim will be limited with 2 of Reed/Malone/Laimbeer/McGinnis/Issel on at any one time.

Edge: Large edge to Mavericks

Bench--

I think that my bench quite clearly has this wrapped up. McGinnis is the best player among either benches, and Cunningham is second best. Laimbeer knows his role as an enforcer, Sharman will function as a spot up shooter. McGinnis will provide an Amare-esque player off the bench except that McGinnis is better. Cunningham will be my hustler off the bench, doubling as an offensive sparkplug when necessary. Sam Jones will see very limited minutes as Oscar will take most of the PG minutes.

On the other hand, both Webber and Finley are volume scorers, both of whom like the ball in their hands. They simply won't have the ball enough to be effective, and the rest of his bench is simply nowhere near as good as mine.

Edge: Overwhelming edge to Mavericks.

Conclusion

I think that this match up should be pretty straight forward to judge. My team is better at 4 positions and has a superior bench to baller's. Overall team defense will be better on mine because his team doesn't have the personnel to stop my trio of Reed/Malone/Oscar. Most importantly, my front court takes a dump all over his, and this is a disadvantage he just won't be able to deal with IMO. Bird will have a huge series, but so will Oscar and I think that Hill will slow Bird more than Drexler will slow Oscar. I think that Houston will win a game just because of the Larry Bird factor, but I can't see them taking more than that.

Mavericks in 5 IMO.

[Baller 24]

The Houston Rockets

Starting lineup:

Lenny Wilkens
Clyde Drexlar
Larry Bird
Elvin Hayes
Alonzo Mourning

Bench:
Terry Porter
Michael Finley
Rodney McCray
Chris Webber
Vlade Divac/Theo Ratliff

Bench Warmer: Lamar Odom

Vs.

The I-45, instate rivals The Dallar Mavricks

The Mavs are a great team that is built around a VERY strong point guard, but I think it will take a little more than that to take out the Rockets

Match ups:

Center:
Willis Reed vs. Zo
This is a great front court match up, both were arguably top 5 centers of their times.
Zo and Reed were very much alike statistically on offense, in their prime they would both were 50%+ FG shooters, and would average 20+ ppg. But I believe Zo had more athleticism and strength, as Willis at 6

[Warspite]

Pistons vs the Heat

Its shocking how these 2 teams are similar. The only real differance I see is the that 1 team (Pistons) has great defensive players and the other doesnt.

The Pistons on defense 1st of all are going to trap Magic and force him to give the ball up. Once the ball is Wades hands you will see on convergance of A: Wade (one of the most TO prone players in the ATL) and B: Jerry West (The greatest ball hawking player in the ATL). This should lead to 3-7 steals per game and 6-14 quick pts.

The Pistons in the halfcourt realise Deke is no threat down low and that Magic is the post player on the team. Magic will be guarded by Thompson who will use his leaping ability to make up for the inches he gives away. DrJ will be looking at playing the passing lanes and leaving LBJ (.325 3pt shooter) at the 3pt line. The Pistons are putting Thurmond on McAdoo as Nate is the more moble player and McAdoo is the primary scorer. Deke only scores on off rebs and with Lucas on him hes not getting many rebs. The cross matchup allows Nate to get on the break and use his vast superority in speed to get easy buckets running the break or a quick postup on a Wade or LBJ.

On offense the Pistons will use the greatest weakness of the Heat against them. The 3 big scorers PG,SG, SF of the Pistons are guarded by 3 sub par to down right horrible defenders in Wade, LBJ and Magic. With Wade and LBJ having only 5 yrs you can expect to see those rookie mistakes and rookie play that put them in foul trouble early in there careers before Stern dictated that those 2 should never be in foul trouble. LBJ and Wade are not what they are present but what they have been there entire careers. Magic is simply not quick enough to play with Thompson/West/DrJ however who realy is?? The biggest problem with the weak backcourt defense is that Deke and McAdoo will be in foul trouble and that Sikma and Nance (who I believe will see alot of playing time to counter DRJ) will have more prominate roles. DrJ will be the #1 option in the post and will use his abilites to put LBJ or Magic in foul trouble. DrJ and Thompson will also be crashing the offensive glass creating 2nd chance pts and stopping the fast break.

If the Pistons arent winning playing fast (In Miami this is a possibility) they can change the pace with the halfcourt games of West/Lucas Pick and Pop and with the bench with Price/Greer and Bells. The Pistons have the ability to play fast or slow and to use the head shot or body blow to knock out there opponet.

The Heat want to run but how are they going to run if they are out rebounded? The Pistons can use pressure with steals and blocks to create TOs to get out and run. The Pistons simply are the better defensive team at createting chaos and making the other team look sloppy. The pressure will be on Magic and when leaves the game Harper will be some trouble if the pressure stays.

As the close games come down to crunch time (as they will in many games) the Pistons know they can turn to MR Clutch and DrJ who have the Finals MVPs and with Mark Price the GOAT FT% shooter we know that leads are safe.

In conclusion The Pistons hold the adv in
1. Reb: Starting frontcourt avgs 53rbpg
2. Steals
3. Shot blocking
4. FTA
5. 3pt shooting
6. FT shooting
7. Frontcourt depth
6. bench scoring

Magic has to overcome his teams weaknesses but hes opposed by 2 players that are his equal in DrJ and Jerry West.

What I predict is that this will be the highest scoring, most enjoyable, highest rated series you will ever watch. Some of it will look like this

[penbeast0]

Warspite has a lovely team, great fun to watch. However, this writeup is chock full of very questionable claims and needs a refutation.

Pistons vs the Heat
Its shocking how these 2 teams are similar. The only real differance I see is the that 1 team (Pistons) has great defensive players and the other doesnt.

The Pistons have 2 defenders who have ever made an All-D team (the best neutral source I know), that's it. The Heat have . . . 6! including 4 of our top 8. In addition the Heat have a 4 time DPOY in Deke who is the best defensive player on the floor; Thurmond was excellent, Deke was better, bigger, and more of a shotblocker as well as a great man defender.

The Pistons on defense 1st of all are going to trap Magic and force him to give the ball up. Once the ball is Wades hands you will see on convergance of A: Wade (one of the most TO prone players in the ATL) and B: Jerry West (The greatest ball hawking player in the ATL). This should lead to 3-7 steals per game and 6-14 quick pts.

The Pistons are going to trap Magic, the greatest playmaker and passer of all time, and with who? Thurmond and Lucas were both walk it up players and not going to trap, so . . . you are trapping with either West (now in two places at once?) or Erving (leaving LeBron, CLE's main ballhandler, free to create in the open court). Plus David Thompson was not an intelligent defensive player, he was more the George Gervin type content to show his flair on the offensive end only. The trap will get us about 6 quick points before they abandon it or I'd go more into this silly idea.

The Pistons in the halfcourt realise Deke is no threat down low and that Magic is the post player on the team. Magic will be guarded by Thompson who will use his leaping ability to make up for the inches he gives away. DrJ will be looking at playing the passing lanes and leaving LBJ (.325 3pt shooter) at the 3pt line. The Pistons are putting Thurmond on McAdoo as Nate is the more moble player and McAdoo is the primary scorer. Deke only scores on off rebs and with Lucas on him hes not getting many rebs. The cross matchup allows Nate to get on the break and use his vast superority in speed to get easy buckets running the break or a quick postup on a Wade or LBJ.

Magic and Deke are both 50%+ shooter and excellent post up players and with Thurmond well away from the basket on McAdoo, that leaves Detroit's two weakest defenders, Thompson and Lucas down low giving away 3-6 inches of height as well as skill! If they really do this, we might leave Deke in longer rather than pulling him for Sikma, though that's still in the plans. Oh, and Thurmond was appreciably slower than McAdoo who Detroit has him guarding. Nate is probably faster than Mutombo, but Lucas, a walk it up jump shooter, is on Mutombo.

On offense the Pistons will use the greatest weakness of the Heat against them. The 3 big scorers PG,SG, SF of the Pistons are guarded by 3 sub par to down right horrible defenders in Wade, LBJ and Magic. With Wade and LBJ having only 5 yrs you can expect to see those rookie mistakes and rookie play that put them in foul trouble early in there careers before Stern dictated that those 2 should never be in foul trouble. LBJ and Wade are not what they are present but what they have been there entire careers.

Wade's rookie year: 2.4pf/36 minutes. Erving's rookie year: 2.7pf/36.
LeBron's rookie year: 1.7pf/36 minutes. West's BEST year: 1.9pf/36.
Oh, and did Warspite mention anywhere that he is using Erving's ABA numbers!!! which means Doc's points, rebounds, and 2pt shooting percentage must all be discounted approximately 10% (then add pace discount of about 25% and all his numbers are lower than LeBron's, though Doc was still great) . . . And do you really think Erving didn't get special treatment in the ABA? lol.

Magic is simply not quick enough to play with Thompson/West/DrJ however who realy is??

Wade, the man known as Flash, is quicker and more athletic than West. LeBron is quicker though not as great a leaper as Dr. J. Thompson is quicker and more athletic than Magic however Magic is A LOT more court savvy plus bigger and stronger and . . . Magic plays at least team defense. Plus our 4th guard, Derek Harper, was another All-Defense team guard with PG skills and decent size.

The biggest problem with the weak backcourt defense is that Deke and McAdoo will be in foul trouble and that Sikma and Nance (who I believe will see alot of playing time to counter DRJ) will have more prominate roles.

McAdoo drew a heck of a lot more fouls than the passive Lucas and poor shooting Thurmond. Plus their bigs will be scrambling back to cover Magic, Wade, and LeBron driving the lanes (with McAdoo, Sikma, and Harper coming free on the drive and dish and our three create even more fouls than their three! (or didn't you see Wade get his Finals MVP almost solely at the FT line). Oh, and Sikma and Nance are both All-Defensive team players with Sikma having shooting range and Nance being a 20 ppg scorer with great shotblocking who shot 55%+ from the field and won the first NBA slam dunk competition. This isn't a weakness, it's a strength.

DrJ will be the #1 option in the post and will use his abilites to put LBJ or Magic in foul trouble. DrJ and Thompson will also be crashing the offensive glass creating 2nd chance pts and stopping the fast break.

The same LeBron who only fouled 1.7 times/36 minutes as a rookie and they crash the offensive glass against superior rebounders (pace adjusted) in their defenders, LeBron and Magic.

If the Pistons arent winning playing fast (In Miami this is a possibility) they can change the pace with the halfcourt games of West/Lucas Pick and Pop and with the bench with Price/Greer and Bells. The Pistons have the ability to play fast or slow and to use the head shot or body blow to knock out there opponet.

The Heat want to run but how are they going to run if they are out rebounded? The Pistons can use pressure with steals and blocks to create TOs to get out and run. The Pistons simply are the better defensive team at createting chaos and making the other team look sloppy. The pressure will be on Magic and when leaves the game Harper will be some trouble if the pressure stays.

Both teams are very versatile offensively, the Pistons create less steals and blocks than the Magic. Magic/Wade/LeBron/Harper average more steal than their counterparts PLUS 3 of our 4 rotation bigs, McAdoo, Sikma, and Nance all surprisingly averaged better than 1 steal a game too! As for blocks, Mutombo is 2nd all-time and while we don't have stats for Thurmond, it's extremely unlikely he matches that. Plus Larry Nance is a better shotblocker than anyone else on the Pistons too (the only forward on the all-time top 10 shotblocking list), and McAdoo averaged better than 2 blocks a game as well. The chaos and disruption will come from David Thompson trying to go it alone, all the Heat creators, Magic/LeBron/Wade/Harper, are known for being unselfish team first players

As the close games come down to crunch time (as they will in many games) the Pistons know they can turn to MR Clutch and DrJ who have the Finals MVPs and with Mark Price the GOAT FT% shooter we know that leads are safe.

West was a terrific clutch player with 1 finals MVP, Magic has THREE finals MVP's plus Dwyane Wade has another. Erving and LeBron are both huge clutch playoff performers too, though Erving got his Playoff MVPs in the ABA. Plus McAdoo was MVP over the likes of prime Kareem.

As for shooting FT's in the clutch, assuming the undersized and weak defensive Price is out there trying to guard Wade (or Magic, lol), you don't foul the best FT shooter, you foul the worst . . . neither has a Wilt/Shaq type but for them, Thurmond and Bellamy shoot around .650 in their primes while our centers, Mutombo and Sikma (who will probably be there with Thurmond) shoot .700 and .850!!!

In conclusion The Pistons hold the adv in
1. Reb: Starting frontcourt avgs 53rbpg true
2. Steals false
3. Shot blocking extremely false
4. FTA false
5. 3pt shooting based on what?!? only Price can shoot them and he gets killed out there. We would counter with Hornacek if needed (and Taylor, and Harper)
6. FT shooting questionable, particularly from the bigs
7. Frontcourt depth questionable, Sikma and Nance are better defensively and a better fit than Bells and McDyess, and our depth includes 2-time ABA MVP Mel Daniels and 20 ppg/All-D Bob Dandridge too!
6. bench scoring again, questionable and clearly inferior bench defense

Magic has to overcome his teams weaknesses but hes opposed by 2 players that are his equal in DrJ and Jerry West.

actually they are up against rough equivalents in LeBron and Wade, Magic is facing David Thompson who isn't close to being his equal in anything but scoring and Magic pulls a team together unlike the talented but problematic Thompson.
quote]

So, out of all that verbiage (like i'm one to talk!), Warspite identified one clear advantage for his team. They are the better defensive rebounding squad. To counter that we will be using out outside shooting bigs and superior rebounding guards.
(a) Bob McAdoo is arguably the greatest outside shooting big in NBA history (I'd buy a Dirk argument too, Bird is playing 3 here). Whichever of Thurmond/Lucas guards him is going to have to come out on the perimeter where Mac will be able to use his superior quickness and athleticism plus they won't be set up under the basket for rebounding.
(b) When Thurmond is in at center, we will bring Jack Sikma in fairly quickly (unless they keep trying to guard Deke with Jerry Lucas, lol). Sikma is another good jump shooter with excellent range who will force their other big rebounder to come out or give up open shots.
(c) This frees the paint for out big rebounding guards. Magic is a better rebounding guard than Thompson, Wade than West, even LeBron has the pace/league adjusted edge on Erving. And, if they bring little Mark Price in, everyone has the edge on him (as even Derek Harper was a strong 6'3).

This will help counter the rebounding of Thurmond and Lucas and free the lanes for our great attacking guards. Combine that with our greater shooting efficiency, better defense, and our incredible playmaking, and this should be an exciting first round win.

Defense:
Mutombo>Thurmond (both great, Deke has 4 DPOYs!)
Sikma>Bellamy (Sikma is the All-D winner and Bells was lazy)
McAdoo>Lucas (shotblocking plus Pat Riley used him as a defensive sub late in his long career and Pat knows defense)
Nance > McDyess (even more athletic, more of a shotblocker, quicker, plus the All-Defense recognition again)
LeBron=Erving (neither got all-D though LeBron was a candidate this year but both used their great athleticism well . . . though Erving was more a PF in the years used so he has more blocks)
Wade<West (Wade is, however, an All-NBA defender)
Magic>Thompson (Magic was a good team defender, Thompson wasn't)
Harper>Price (All-D v. undersized shoter)

[b]Thus in our top 8 players, Miami has the defensive advantage at 6 of the 8 positions, Detroit only at the smaller guard position (where Wade, far from being a defensive liability as Warspite claims, has won an NBA All-Defensive award too!)
Plus All-Defense team members Bob Dandridge and Brian Taylor and brutal 2 time ABA MVP Mel Daniels are available as needed.[/b]

[zong]

Vs.

Home Advantage: Portland Trail Blazers

First of all, I

[Myth_Breaker]

A few points on Myth's write-up and line-up changes:

-The Nuggets have adjusted to me., which is a good sign.

I still don't know why you consider it a good sign or attribute any meaning to it at all. Lakers adjusted to Nuggets this year too (Sasha on AI) and we all know what happened next. ;-)

-Rodman is forced to play SF and play the perimeter against Baylor, which will take away from the Nuggets big advantage on the boards.

Forced? It's simply a matter of choice which my flexible lineup allows. BTW, I still have advantage on the boards: Wilt>Walton, Rodman>Baylor. Or maybe you have some calculations proving otherwise?

-Amare instantly becomes a weak link defensively now that he's starting, with Wilt up front demanding so many touches in the post, this will limit Amare's scoring and impact.

Sorry, but no. Wilt in the reference period I adopted averaged mere 15,3 FGA PER-36. For the sake of comparison: in 2004/05, when Amare registered 25,9 ppg - his highest average before this season - starting next to him Marion registered 14,8 FGA PER-36 - hardly any difference. This didn't stop Amare from dominating, right? And what's happened this season? Coming on the board Wilt-like center in Shaq actually made Stoudemire even better, freeing up his game and moving to his natural position. The result was both scoring average and efficiency increasing and Amare completing his season with career-highs in scoring 26,7 ppg while shooting .590 from the field!

-Barry becomes less effective matched up with Kobe, he's not a true 2.

Many people consider Kobe to be a true 3 and this has comparable (read: insignificant) bearing as your argument. Modern, versatile swingmen are interchangeable at 2 and 3 spots and Barry was first from this line. Or perhaps you could give me any specific argument why Rick couldn't play SG today - in era of some 6-8 guards - except the mere fact he used to start at SF in his days?

-Myth ignored Bill Walton as my starting Center and harped on the Lanier vs Wilt match-up. But it's really Walton playing the starting role and Lanier backing him up.

But we remember you confused whether to start Walton or not due to critics saying that taking into account Bill's injuries he should be considered not more than 25-mpg player in this league. So making him your starter instead of most important reserve gives you really only 5 or so extra minutes from him - not enough to make a difference in this matchup.
And while Walton is more skilled than Lanier, Chamberlain is still more skilled, while is going to beat him even more than Bob in strength and athleticism department.

I now believe I hold 4 out of 5 advantages in the starting line-up.

We know you believe.

Amare vs Haywood: With Amare at the 4, this gives Haywood a better match-up, with Rodman defending Baylor, this leaves a lot more space for Haywood to operate.

Who is more important for you: Haywood or perhaps Baylor? It's rather obvious that by moving my best F defender from less important to more important opponent Nugs are gaining, not losing.

A prime Haywood was a more explosive scorer and a better rebounder by a fair margin.

Another thing I've already covered: taking into account faster pace and how crappy those Haywood's Seattle teams were, such statements are at least doubtful, if not straight up false.

Rodman vs Baylor: Now this brings Dennis on the perimeter against one of the most craftiest offensive players ever. I like this to my advantage as this takes away from Rodman's post defense and rebounding dominance up front.

I believe you didn't watch prime Rodman, who excelled just as much in guarding the post and the perimeter. I've also explained that Baylor was in fact SF/PF hybrid, spending many minutes at 4 and close to the basket. The rest was already covered.

Rick Barry guarding Kobe Bryant? I like this even more than Reggie Miller guarding him. Rick can't keep up at the guard spot, he played the 4 most of his prime and was most effective at that spot. Kobe will have more of a challenge defensively now, but I still like the match-up. At the same time this lets Baylor exert less energy on defense with Rodman being a non factor offensively.

Baylor exterts less energy on defense, while Kobe exterts more: so this specific aspect evens out. Rick isn't supposed to beat Kobe with his quickness - neither would be Reggie - but to bother him with his length and quick hands, while Barry>Reggie in those aspects. Don't forget about Billups doubling KB as well.
As to claim about Barry playing mainly at 4, it's patently false. What is funny is that you apparently based this all on a single Penbeast's quote: with this "minor" detail that Pen already withdrew from it:

http://basketball.realgm.com/boards/vie ... &start=696

"Oh and you are probably right about Wilkes playing more the PF"

With me confirming my stance with appropriate quote:

"The major factor in their undoing was the Warriors' defense, particularly by Wilkes, who had held Elvin Hayes to a total of 29 points over three games."

http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19741975.html

So no on both accounts: neither Barry was PF instead of SF nor (even of the former was true) you have any material argument why he would not be able to succeed at 2.


My thoughts on Myth's bashing of Bob Cousy? He can refuse Coz's greatness because of the era he played in, but the fact of the matter is that guys like Wilt, Baylor, Rick Barry and Oscar Robertson also dominated in the same era. Does that take away from their accomplishments? I would hope not. Cousy is an all-time great and it's sad that one has to try to take away from his game because he played in a different era, a long time ago.

Heh, in 40 years your grandkids will probably be saying: "in Bird's and LeBron's era". But I like it when you're trying to make me modern-era partisan. You're confusing the facts since e.g. Barry didn't play in the same era as Cousy at all: in fact, started his career years after Bob retired. And I've already explained the difference between players with prime in the 50s and in the 60s TWICE, but if you insist, I may do it again:
"The best Cousy

[penbeast0]

Since I'm being quoted here, I would like to say (a) I NEVER said Barry played mainly PF, I said that he was primarily a 3 that some years switched to the 4 but I'd never heard of him playing 2. and (b) I didn't withdraw it, I said that I can see why you might think the shorter, lighter Wilkes played the 4 but they were mainly interchangeable with Wilkes guarding the opp's higher scoring forward plus Barry did play some years mainly at 4 in the ABA but he was primarily a 3 there too.

It's all in the details.

[Myth_Breaker]

Since I'm being quoted here, I would like to say (a) I NEVER said Barry played mainly PF, I said that he was primarily a 3 that some years switched to the 4 but I'd never heard of him playing 2. and (b) I didn't withdraw it, I said that I can see why you might think the shorter, lighter Wilkes played the 4 but they were mainly interchangeable with Wilkes guarding the opp's higher scoring forward plus Barry did play some years mainly at 4 in the ABA but he was primarily a 3 there too.

It's all in the details.

Yep, it was Kosta who said that Barry was mainly PF - but I suppose he had no other reason to say that except exaggerating your post. To finalize Rick's case: may we all agree that he was versatile forward who spent most time at 3 and with skillset to play 2 as well? That's BTW what you agreed with, only having doubts as to his quickness. But wasn't Barry know from quickness in his playing days? Always thought so. BTW, I found one of comments on defense we've been talking about:


Because he had to do it all to win in the ABA, he had been forced to develop his ballhandling and defensive talents.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/barry_bio.html

[Baller 24]

EDIT NVM

[TrueLAfan]

Whoa...easy, myth "We" can't agree to that at all. It isn't true. penbeast0 is right...Rick Barry pretty much never played at the guard position. You can see it from the on-court minutes of other guards on his teams

1966: Rodgers, Neumann, Attles, Phillips--7551 out of a possible 7669 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Keith Erickson (646)
1967: Neumann, King, Attles, Mullins--7687 out of a possible 7836 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Joe Ellis (333), Bob Warlick (65), George Lee (5)
1969: Logan, Brown, Crutchfield, Peterson, Anderson----5304 out of a possible 7528 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Warren Jabali (2528) and Doug Moe (2525). Jabali and Moe split their time at SG.
1970: Barret, Brown, Taylor, Logan--7681 out of a possible 8094 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Warren Jabali (1848), George Carter (1510), Hal Jeter (19)
1971: Melchionni, DePree, Congden, Taylor, Hayes--7681 out of a possible 8104 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG (minutes played): LeVern Tart (985), Billy Angelis (48)
1972: Melcionni, Roche, DePre, Zeller--6563 out of a possible 8174 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Oliver Taylor (1891)
1973: Mullins, Williams, Johnson, Abdul-Rahman--5537 out of a possible 7892 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Jim Barnett (2215), Cazzie Russell (2429), Joe Ellis (1024)
1974: Mullins, Beard, Johnson--5683 out of a possible 7882 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Jim Barnett (1689), Cazzie Russell (2574), Joe Ellis (515)
1975: Beard, Johnson, Smith, Mullins, Dudley--7644 out of a possible 7912 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Steve Bracey (340)
1976: Smith, Williams, Johnson, Dudley, Mullins--7837 out of a possible 7932 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Robert Hawkins (153)
1977: Smith, Williams, Dudley, Johnson--7688 out of a possible 7912 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Sonny Parker (889), Marshall Rogers (176)
1978: Smith, Williams, Dudley, Green, Marsh, Johnson-7856 out of a possible 7912 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Sonny Parker (2069)
1979: Murphy, Newlin, Dunleavy, Watts-7301 out of a possible 7912 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Robert Reid (2259)
1980: Murphy, Leavell, Dunleavy, Henderson-7386 out of a possible 7972 minutes at PG/SG.
Other players that played at SG: Robert Reid (2304), Rudy White (106)

Every year that Rick Barry played professional basketball, the minutes at the guard position were full. Having the skillset for a position does

[Kosta]

Forced? It's simply a matter of choice which my flexible lineup allows. BTW, I still have advantage on the boards. Or maybe you have some calculations proving otherwise?

Indeed you still do because of big Wilt, but it does take away from one of your strengths.

Many people consider Kobe to be a true 3 and this has comparable (read: insignificant) bearing as your argument. Modern, versatile swingmen are interchangeable at 2 and 3 spots and Barry was first from this line.

I disagree, I've always considered Kobe Bryant a natural 2 and that's why he's been a staple at that position his entire career. A guy like LeBron James has the skills of a guard also, but he's still a forward in my mind.

But we remember you confused whether to start Walton or not due to critics saying that taking into account Bill's injuries he should be considered not more than 25-mpg player in this league.

Yes, I admit asking for other G.M's advice during the draft about Walton, but only because his injury issues were coming into question. As I stated earlier Walton and Lanier will be sharing the task vs Wilt.

As to claim about Barry playing mainly at 4, it's patently false. What is funny is that you apparently based this all on a single Penbeast's quote: with this "minor" detail that Pen already withdrew from it.

My correction, I'll admit my mistake and move on. However Barry did play 4 over parts of his career in the ABA as Pen did state. And as TrueLAfan also stated, Rick Barry barely played at the guard position over his career. Appreciate the guys helping out with this.

And I've already explained the difference between players with prime in the 50s and in the 60s TWICE, but if you insist, I may do it again:
"The best Cousy

[Myth_Breaker]

Whoa...easy, myth "We" can't agree to that at all. It isn't true. penbeast0 is right...Rick Barry pretty much never played at the guard position. Every year that Rick Barry played professional basketball, the minutes at the guard position were full. Having the skillset for a position does

[TrueLAfan]

Sorry myth...I was under the impression that you were going to play Barry at SG, where no coach ever played him. (And Rick Barry had a lot of very good coaches.) If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. But if you are planning on playing him there and think you can get away with it by saying "Can we all agree...?" then you're mistaken. Playing historically great players out of position because you "think" they will be fine there--and flying the face of great coaches who knew more and had more on the line--seems like a problem in a lot of ways, IMO.