How many here have any memories of the Pack pre-Favre?

[deep throat]

There is a definite split on this board. I have a hunch why.

How many of you were old enough to remember the so called "rebuilding years" prior to Favre. The years where we went through QBs like David Whitehurst, Randy Wright, TJ Rubley, Mike Thomsack, jim McMahon (old), etc. ?

These "rebuilding" plans can go on and on and on. Most of the young people here are spoiled by the relative succes the Packers have had during favre. One guy on a thread was down on Favre for just getting to the Playoffs and it was HIS fault for their demise in the the last 10 years. I'm afraid some of you are in store for some bad news.

I don't see anything from Ted to make me think this team is making big strides. Our best asset on offense is a 32 year old holdover from Ron Wolf. He has had 3 years and still hasn't found even one above average TE (vital to the WC offense)-,the FB situation is no better, his RB situation is the worst in the league. Are Colledge and Sitz supposed to get you excited? They are not going to be dominant guys-you just hope they hold up enough and can be hid a little in the ZBS (Let's be honest).

His best move last year may have been resigning Kampman -For all the $hit Sherman gets (and deserves as a GM) that was his guyPickett was just average, Manuel SUCKED, Woodson was a last minute guy that he brought in for $11 mill for 2k6 alone when he finally realized he had so F'n much cap left.

I don't want to ramble on anymore. You can think Ted is the greatest GM in the world if you want.

Just curious about the original question-Do you remeber and were you around pre-Favre?

[paulpressey25]

I remember it all......it's not easy to win if you don't have a very good GM.....

[Thunder Muscle]

Majik Man! '89 Replay game.

Infante we trust!

I remember the Lindy Infante era on, caught the tale end of the misery. Overall been fortunate to have good Packer memories.

[Neusch23]

There is a definite split on this board. I have a hunch why.

How many of you were old enough to remember the so called "rebuilding years" prior to Favre. The years where we went through QBs like David Whitehurst, Randy Wright, TJ Rubley, Mike Thomsack, jim McMahon (old), etc. ?

TJ was Favres back up....he is famous for the one snap he took vs Detroit in a Thanksgiving game where he threw an INT!!

Gotta love TJ!

[El Duderino]

I'm old enough to remember.The Packer were crap in my youth,i grew up a Cowboys fan.

In fairness,those were different times,the salary cap and free agency changed the NFL.It wasn't so much rebuilding that caused all the years of losing and mediocrity,i believe it was more the acceptance of failure.I remember Ron Wolf saying that was the thing that struck him right away after taking the job,people throughout the organization weren't bothered by the state of the franchise.

I do believe Thompson was right in overhauling the roster he inherited.The only place i differ somewhat with others on here is the belief that you have to suck for a long time while changing the roster or that it's ok.

With the draft,free agency,and trades,there are multiple ways to make big changes to a roster for the better and pretty quickly.Now Thompson has decided to basically just use the draft and that very well could work.Ted is putting all his eggs in the draft basket,if he has a bad draft,there is nothing else to help the team.

We'll find out if he can draft well enough to ignore other avenues that can help a team.

[InsideOut]

There is a definite split on this board. I have a hunch why.

How many of you were old enough to remember the so called "rebuilding years" prior to Favre. The years where we went through QBs like David Whitehurst, Randy Wright, TJ Rubley, Mike Thomsack, jim McMahon (old), etc. ?

These "rebuilding" plans can go on and on and on. Most of the young people here are spoiled by the relative succes the Packers have had during favre. One guy on a thread was down on Favre for just getting to the Playoffs and it was HIS fault for their demise in the the last 10 years. I'm afraid some of you are in store for some bad news.

I don't see anything from Ted to make me think this team is making big strides. Our best asset on offense is a 32 year old holdover from Ron Wolf. He has had 3 years and still hasn't found even one above average TE (vital to the WC offense)-,the FB situation is no better, his RB situation is the worst in the league. Are Colledge and Sitz supposed to get you excited? They are not going to be dominant guys-you just hope they hold up enough and can be hid a little in the ZBS (Let's be honest).

His best move last year may have been resigning Kampman -For all the $hit Sherman gets (and deserves as a GM) that was his guyPickett was just average, Manuel SUCKED, Woodson was a last minute guy that he brought in for $11 mill for 2k6 alone when he finally realized he had so F'n much cap left.

I don't want to ramble on anymore. You can think Ted is the greatest GM in the world if you want.

Just curious about the original question-Do you remeber and were you around pre-Favre?

I can remember the games from the early 70s on. I was also the person that blamed Favre for most of our playoff losses over the past 10 years and I stand by what I said.

I took this from DrugBust.

Hearing about how Favre doesn't get any help has gotten very old. He had the best line in football for a number of years, a Pro Bowl WR and TE and a legit top 3 or 4 back. Take a look at his playoff performances with that staff:

2001 vs St. Louis: 17-45; Favre with 6 INTs
2002 vs Atlanta: 2 INTs, 54 QB rating
2003 vs the Eagles: key INT to end the game
2004 vs Minnesota: 4 INTs, 55 QB rating

I can't state it any better than DrugBust did.

I don't know if TT is the man or not. I do know he deserves 4 years to see what he can do. I also know he took over and old team that was over the cap. The first year he cleaned house and we had a ton of injuries. Last year I saw a team that started to play better as the season went on. Well except for Favre who in his last 9 games threw 8 TD to 13 picks, only completed 60% of his passes twice had a QB rating of 70 or under in 7 of those 9 games. But we won 5 of those so I don't lose much sleep when Favre talks about wanting to be traded. And if TT bombs I also won't lose much sleep. After growing up watching a team suck for 20 years I've been blessed to see 15(?) straight winning seasons. So pardon me if after watching 35 years of highs and lows I don't get all shook up after year 2 of a rebuilding program. After all, the fans sitting around me at Lambau in Favre's 3rd year were calling for him to be benched. He had 19 TDs, 24 picks and a QB rating of 70. Thank God the GM and coach didn't listen to the fans and stuck with him for a 4th season. I think TT deserves the same chance.
[/quote]

[Chapter29]

I remember it all......it's not easy to win if you don't have a very good GM.....

Sadly I remember as well.

Even more sadly TT is a terrible GM.

[shortstrokes]

Yea, I remember the bad old days. The waste land that was the Green Bay Packers in the 70's and 80's.

But for those of us that lived through it, you have to remember that was before the birth of Free Agency. That was before a salary cap and the casualties that causes. Now, teams have the opportunity to secure better players and turn a losing team into a winner in a season or so.

Yea, I remember the dark ages of Packer history. Twenty years of mediocrity and futility. But you have to remember, back then the only option a general manager had was to build the team through the draft and hope he got lucky. He had to hope and pray that every few years, one or two draft picks would develop into superstars. Then he hoped and prayed that he would find a couple of diamonds in the rough. GM's spent a lot of time hoping and praying since the odds of finding busts in the draft were a hell of a lot better that the odds of finding that college kid who would surprise.

Imagine what a crap shoot it must be trying to build a championship team soley relying on the draft? Boy, I sure am glad those days are gone.

[skitch815]

-= original quote snipped =-



TJ was Favres back up....he is famous for the one snap he took vs Detroit in a Thanksgiving game where he threw an INT!!

Gotta love TJ!

McMahon was a Favre backup also.

Anyways, I'm old enough to remember the Packers pre-Brett and the Brewers last world series. My first game I saw in person involved Anthony Dilweg, although I'm not sure if he was the starter or came in after an injury.

[MickeyDavis]

QB's between Starr and Favre:

Frank Patrick
Scott Hunter
Jerry Tagge
Jim Del Gaizo
Jack Concannon
Jon Hadl
Don Milan
Carlos Brown
Randy Johnson
Lynn Dickey
Brian Dowling
David Whitehurst
Dennis Sproul
Bobby Douglas
Steve Pisarkiewicz
Bobby Troup
Rich Campbell
Randy Wright
Jim Zorn
Chuck Fusina
Vince Ferragamo
Joe Shield
Willie Gillus
Alan Risher
Don Majkowski
Blair Kiel
Anthony Dilweg
Mike Tomczak

[deep throat]

QB's between Starr and Favre:

Frank Patrick
Scott Hunter
Jerry Tagge
Jim Del Gaizo
Jack Concannon
Jon Hadl
Don Milan
Carlos Brown
Randy Johnson
Lynn Dickey
Brian Dowling
David Whitehurst
Dennis Sproul
Bobby Douglas
Steve Pisarkiewicz
Bobby Troup
Rich Campbell
Randy Wright
Jim Zorn
Chuck Fusina
Vince Ferragamo
Joe Shield
Willie Gillus
Alan Risher
Don Majkowski
Blair Kiel
Anthony Dilweg
Mike Tomczak

Thanks for the list ( I think we can start a new one soon with AR at the top), and thanks for correcting me on TJ and Mac (they were in the very begin of Favre-it was so bad for so long =way pre-my memories). I think it's pretty clear though that most people here that a skeptics of TT are the same that know what can heppen. From Lomardi to Favre (and Ron Wolf maybe even more so) From 1968 -1991 They had 3 winning seasons.

I would agree that free agency and the salary cap have changed how things work-excellent point, BUT you have to know how to use those tools and I don't see that Ted really grasps it. I think he understands the part where you don't want to dig a hole with the cap like the Redskins-it's just that he takes it too far. It makes no sense to have so much extra cap room left at this point in the off-season. A Randy McMichael at TE, a Justin Griffith at FB weren't signed to MEGA deals and would have been definite improvements over what we have. Part of the problem is he relies very heavily on Reggie McKenzie who is terrible at what he does. Unlike Ron Wolf who was the point man on getting players like Sean Jones, Reggie, Ahman, Eugene Robinson, Rison, etc. -He has Mckenzie and Dorsey handle most of that.

I sense a lot of people with a kind of -"yes I don't understand it and we don't seem any better, but let's give him a chance"- This is fair minded way to look at things and it was pretty much my stance, BUT after three years you should see more than what we have- I go back to my original comments- We still don't even have 1 AVERAGE TE (which is vital to the WC offense), the RB situation is the worst in the league, the O-Line is still shaky, and we don't have a true game breaker at WR (like a Javon Walker)-if your going to be honest we have a couple of very nice players there that have the skill sets more suited to be your #2 WR and then a bunch of slugs and unknowns. He has had three years of drafting and free agency.

[ReasonablySober]

Again, this **** is completely mind boggling.

Now, this offseason he doesn't blow his load on free agents and all of the sudden "fans" can't wait to bail on the team.

I don't see anything from Ted to make me think this team is making big strides.

You're a tough man to please.

He took over one of the oldest teams in the league, one which was over the cap. He cleaned house, brought in a new coach and some young guys. In the first year of the rebuilding plan he put three guys on the All-Rookie team, was universally lauded for his draft, and the Packers doubled their wins from the previous season.

That isn't a 'big stride'?

Our best asset on offense is a 32 year old holdover from Ron Wolf.

We don't know yet we we have in Rodgers, his highest offensive draft pick. Jennings, however, looked real good last year and our line is in its best shape since we had Wahle and Rivera. Everyone knows that it takes at least a year before the zone blocking scheme is picked up. We asked three rookies and a first year starter to do it last season. I think they handled it well.

He has had 3 years and still hasn't found even one above average TE (vital to the WC offense)-

You do realize that when Thompson took over that Bubba Franks was only 27 years old, right? That he's still only 29? So Thompson was supposed to anticipate that Franks would completely forget how to catch the ball last year?

Olson at #16 would have been a reach. The next TE taken, Zach Miller, was gone by the time our 2nd rounder came on the clock. The 3rd TE taken, Matt Spaeth, was taken by Pittsburgh one pick prior to our third. Regardless, I think our pass catching problems can be solved by Zac Alcorn and Clark Harris.

the FB situation is no better

William Henderson was a freakin' institution. He retired this season and now we're going to go with young guys.

Old guy retires, young guy gets a shot...sort of happens every year with every team you know...

his RB situation is the worst in the league.

Jacksonville, Indi and New England were saying the same thing at this point last year. How did that turn out?

Are Colledge and Sitz supposed to get you excited?

Funny choice of words. "Excited" is exactly how Brett Favre described how he felt about the rookie lineman last December in an interview with Chris Mortenson.

His best move last year may have been resigning Kampman -For all the $hit Sherman gets (and deserves as a GM) that was his guyPickett was just average, Manuel SUCKED, Woodson was a last minute guy that he brought in for $11 mill for 2k6 alone when he finally realized he had so F'n much cap left.

Wow, damned if you do, damned if you don't. His two highest paid free agents were huge successes but I guess he just got lucky...

I don't want to ramble on anymore. You can think Ted is the greatest GM in the world if you want.

I don't think he's the greatest anything. I simply see his plan and he's doing a good job in my opinion.

Just curious about the original question-Do you remeber and were you around pre-Favre?

I remember the Majik years.

[eagle13]

DT your right on with original post. Not sure about all other stuff. I was there since Starr. Oh God - Scott Hunter was our only winner? Please - never again. DB proves your point being a youngster who has no memories and talks now like he knows what he's talking about. No wonder he has so much faith in ARod. He apparently thinks all it takes to get a great QB is draft a hot prospect. He and all Brett-haters / TT supporters never sat through entire seasons of crappy QBs / teams. Nor do these guys pay attention to how many super talented college first round QBs never play worth a crap in the pros!

[ReasonablySober]

DT your right on with original post. Not sure about all other stuff. I was there since Starr. Oh God - Scott Hunter was our only winner? Please - never again. DB proves your point being a youngster who has no memories and talks now like he knows what he's talking about. No wonder he has so much faith in ARod. He apparently thinks all it takes to get a great QB is draft a hot prospect.

The only way you can have an opinion about how good a QB may or may not be is if you watched football in the 70s and 80s?

And the last 15 years? You are aware that there have been QB busts past 1992, right?

Rick Mirer, Heath Shuler, Trent Dilfer,Jim Druckenmiller, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, Kyle Boller...

Those names ring a bell?

I know I can come off as an arrogant ass, but wow.

He and all Brett-haters / TT supporters never sat through entire seasons of crappy QBs / teams. Nor do these guys pay attention to how many super talented college first round QBs never play worth a crap in the pros!

Could you be more presumptuous?

I love Brett Favre. I still love watching him play and there's no way he doesn't go down as my all time favorite sports hero. But according to you I can't both appreciate him AND support our current GM?

As for Rodgers, I don't know how he'll perform. Nobody here does. But now Favre is holding the future of this franchise hostage. If we're being built to contend in two seasons, shouldn't the team know what they have in Rodgers? He could have gotten his experience last season, taken his lumps like Alex Smith did and in '07 McCarthy could see if he takes the same leap that Smith did in '06. If he does, you've got your QB for the next ten years. If not, find an alternative. By the time '09 roles around and we've got a loaded roster ready to win, the coaching staff would have a grip on the QB position.

But with Brett sticking around in '06 and '07, all he's doing is keeping a successor, whoever it may be, on the bench.

Our only hope is by the time Rodgers (or whoever) steps on the field, he's joining a situation similar to that of Phillip Rivers and the team will be good enough to carry him.

[eagle13]

-= original quote snipped =-

Could you be more presumptuous?

I love Brett Favre. I still love watching him play and there's no way he doesn't go down as my all time favorite sports hero. But according to you I can't both appreciate him AND support our current GM?

As for Rodgers, I don't know how he'll perform. Nobody here does. But now Favre is holding the future of this franchise hostage. If we're being built to contend in two seasons, shouldn't the team know what they have in Rodgers? He could have gotten his experience last season, taken his lumps like Alex Smith did and in '07 McCarthy could see if he takes the same leap that Smith did in '06. If he does, you've got your QB for the next ten years. If not, find an alternative. By the time '09 roles around and we've got a loaded roster ready to win, the coaching staff would have a grip on the QB position.

But with Brett sticking around in '06 and '07, all he's doing is keeping a successor, whoever it may be, on the bench.

Our only hope is by the time Rodgers (or whoever) steps on the field, he's joining a situation similar to that of Phillip Rivers and the team will be good enough to carry him.

What am i being presumptious about? You are completely wrong in YOUR ASSUMPTIONS of what I meant. Never said a youngster could not evaluate a QB. Read a little. What I referred to was original post that youngsters never endured Packers for many years with crappy QB and team.

You are arrogant. All the bust QBs you list PROVE my point. Good QBs are rare and just because they have great college career guaranttees nothing.

As for you saying you love Brett - you are double faced or a weak lover. Your comment in other thread where you bash Brett for padding his stats in red zone would not be stated by anyone who still loved Brett or was honest about our inability to block and run or that its M3 that calls the plays. And its well proven that officials on this team do not do things to placate Brett.

[eagle13]

-= original quote snipped =-

As for Rodgers, I don't know how he'll perform. Nobody here does. But now Favre is holding the future of this franchise hostage. If we're being built to contend in two seasons, shouldn't the team know what they have in Rodgers? He could have gotten his experience last season, taken his lumps like Alex Smith did and in '07 McCarthy could see if he takes the same leap that Smith did in '06. If he does, you've got your QB for the next ten years. If not, find an alternative. By the time '09 roles around and we've got a loaded roster ready to win, the coaching staff would have a grip on the QB position.
But with Brett sticking around in '06 and '07, all he's doing is keeping a successor, whoever it may be, on the bench.

Our only hope is by the time Rodgers (or whoever) steps on the field, he's joining a situation similar to that of Phillip Rivers and the team will be good enough to carry him.

By 09 huh? Well let's see that gives us 2 years to fill holes at TE and perhaps P, S, RB, LS, (SOLB) improve super crappy Special Team coverage - not to mention improve depth at almost all positions AND by '09 also having to replace 2 starting CBs, our best WR, and 1 perhaps 2 starting OTs, not to mention replace any player that might get seriously injured or demand to be traded over next 2 seasons. Oh and hope Rodgers or some other guy can play QB.

[ReasonablySober]

-= original quote snipped =-



By 09 huh? Well let's see that gives us 2 years to fill holes at TE and perhaps P, S, RB, LS, (SOLB) improve super crappy Special Team coverage - not to mention improve depth at almost all positions AND by '09 also having to replace 2 starting CBs, our best WR, and 1 perhaps 2 starting OTs, not to mention replace any player that might get seriously injured or demand to be traded over next 2 seasons. Oh and hope Rodgers or some other guy can play QB.

So Thompson drafts a TE in the top three rounds next season.

P? OK, if Jon Ryan isn't the answer find another one on the street or late in the draft.

He drafted a RB in the 2nd and 3 safeties in the middle rounds the last two drafts. My guess is those two positions are filled.

He drafted his SLB in Poppinga, but if that doesn't work out can't we agree that Barnett could slide over if Hodge shows he's capable of playing the middle? He also took Desmond Bishop if Hodge can't do it. I also wouldn't sleep on Juwan Simpson. He's a long shot, but he had first day talent.

The corners will need replacing but they've got at least another year, maybe two, in them. My guess is that'll be another position of high priority next offseason.

Jennings will replace Driver and the hope is Jones or Clowney replaces Jennings. That's two years away. Sorry if I'm not entirely worried. It's not like we don't have a load of young WRs.

Tauscher and Clifton, meet Moll and Barbie. Also two years away.

The Rodgers situation is being held up by Favre. We both know Thompson can't trade or release Brett, so there's nothing more he can do about that situation.

[BuckPack]

1) McCarthy and Thompson both want Favre back. So it's not like they want to move on and see what Rodgers has, but Favre keeps coming back and ruins their plan. If Thompson and McCarthy really wanted to move on from the Favre era, they wouldn't have begged him to come back for the last two years.

2) I'm a Rodgers fan, but has he shown anything to demonstrate that he's ready to see the field immediately? Go lok at what Hassellbeck did to demonstrate that he was ready immediately. Then, look at the few years it took him once he started. So if Rodgers isn't anyhwere near Hasselbeck's level in preparation, why does he desreve to see the field? Obviously the coaching staff doesn't think he's ready b/c they keep asking Favre to come back!! I think you're forgetting that Rodgers played 1 YEAR of major D1 college football. A great year? sure. But everyone knew he would need a while to groom-he was one playing year removed from juco ball, not to mention the "tedford" issues that have plagued his QBs. So it's no surprise that Rodgers needs 2-4 years to be ready to see the field. And since that IS the case, how is Favre "holding up" the organization by continuing to return (apparently against their "wishes")???

More anti-Favre conspiratorial BS. The coaching staff and front office want Favre to return and Rodgers isn't ready. It's as simple as that.

[ReasonablySober]

1) McCarthy and Thompson both want Favre back. So it's not like they want to move on and see what Rodgers has, but Favre keeps coming back and ruins their plan. If Thompson and McCarthy really wanted to move on from the Favre era, they wouldn't have begged him to come back for the last two years.

2) I'm a Rodgers fan, but has he shown anything to demonstrate that he's ready to see the field immediately? Go lok at what Hassellbeck did to demonstrate that he was ready immediately. Then, look at the few years it took him once he started. So if Rodgers isn't anyhwere near Hasselbeck's level in preparation, why does he desreve to see the field? Obviously the coaching staff doesn't think he's ready b/c they keep asking Favre to come back!! I think you're forgetting that Rodgers played 1 YEAR of major D1 college football. A great year? sure. But everyone knew he would need a while to groom-he was one playing year removed from juco ball, not to mention the "tedford" issues that have plagued his QBs. So it's no surprise that Rodgers needs 2-4 years to be ready to see the field. And since that IS the case, how is Favre "holding up" the organization by continuing to return (apparently against their "wishes")???

More anti-Favre conspiratorial BS. The coaching staff and front office want Favre to return and Rodgers isn't ready. It's as simple as that.

1 - I firmly believe that Thompson wanted Favre to retire following the 2005 season and Rodgers (his guy) to get his shot after sitting for one year. Dan Patrick has claimed for two years running that after speaking with insiders in the organization, he's convinced of those same rumblings.

McCarthy on the other hand is falling in line with whatever Thompson deals him. My guess is he'd rather have Favre than Rodgers.

2 - Rodgers played two seasons at Cal, not one. He started 22 games. As for the Hasselbeck comparison...what are you getting it? He sat for two years then got throw to the wolves. He completed 54% of his passes and had a rating of 70. When Rodgers gets his time, I'm expecting similar numbers. They probably won't be good.

My problem is he could have had that lousy season last year and the team would be on the upswing this year. Instead, we're still left in the dark.

[BuckPack]

My mistake...he played two years at Cal. Still, you think someone can go from two years of playing D1 football (equivalent to a sophomore in college, when you cannot even declare for the NFL draft) was ready to start after sitting one year? Moreover, he has NOT demonstrated anything to suggest he's ready to perform. Nothing. He's been nothing like Hasselbeck, hell or even Aaron Brooks!!!

Who cares what Patrick thinks? When Thompson and McCarthy went down to Favre's house last year in Mississippi, do you think it was just lip service?

2) I'm getting at MH being much further along than AR. He played 4 years at BC and then sat and looked DAMN good in preseason. Meanwhile, AR played two years at Cal and has looked pretty horrific in preseason. What's to suggest that he's ready to play, or that the coaching staff/front office would prefer him to play???? Sure they'd love to see if he'll be the QB of the future, but I think both McCarthy and TT are content to build and win at the same time with Favre.