All-Time Pacers

[BillyHoyle]

if you could select an All-Time Pacers starting 5, (don't focus only on numbers but on "team-chemistry" as well), how would it look like?

[StephenJackson]

Let's see...


Center - Rik Smits
Power Foward - Jermaine O'Neal
Small Forward - Ron Artest
Shooting Guard - Reggie Miller
Point Guard - Mark Jackson


Picking Artest was a tough one. But if Artest would play the we he played for us when he was on top of his game...damn I just can't say no.

[count55]

Center - Mel Daniels
Power Forward - George McGinnis
Small Forward - Roger Brown
Shooting Guard - Reggie Miller
Point Guard - Mark Jackson

McGinnis gets the nod over JO on talent, but it was close. Artest was worth considering from a talent perspective, but Roger was an outstanding scorer, and if I wanted Defense, I'd probably take the less disruptive Derrick McKey.

Reggie is clearly the class of the Shooting Guards, with Billy Knight a distant second.

Mark Jackson edges Freddie Lewis, with Billy Keller and Don Buse as nice backups.

[basketballwacko2]

Center - Mel Daniels
Power Forward - George McGinnis
Small Forward - Roger Brown
Shooting Guard - Reggie Miller
Point Guard - Mark Jackson
6th man Chuck Person


That team would win a lot of games with those guys playing in their primes. McGinnis was a monster in the old ABA and Roger Brown was one of the best players I ever saw. If not for the scandle that kept him out he would surely have been a NBA Hall of Famer.

[count55]

I'm pretty confident in saying that George McGinnis was the most talented player the Pacers ever had. He played in the under-exposed ABA and was a major star in the NBA. Poor training habits led to a rapid decline and a shortened career, but this was a guy who averaged 20.2 pts, 11.0 rebs, 3.7 asts, and 1.9 stls throughout his career.

In the ABA, he averaged 25.2pts, 12.9 rebs, 3.5 asts, & 2.2 stls. His NBA numbers were down, but still pretty respectable at 17.2, 9.8, 3.8, & 1.7. His best year in the NBA was with the Sixers, when he averaged 23.0, 12.6, 4.7, and 2.6.

Rajah and Mel were fantastic, too...At least one, if not all of them, should be in the HOF, IMO.

[PR07]

If you're going by players in their prime:

C: Jermaine O'Neal
PF: George McGinnis
SF: Ron Artest
SG: Reggie Miller
PG: Mark Jackson

Say what you want about Ron, but when his head was on-straight for that short-lived two seasons, he was an absolute beast. Plus, I think he gives the lineup perimeter defense where Reggie and Mark where simply adequate maybe a little more at their peaks.

[mizzoupacers]

His head was not really on straight for an entire season, ever. I assume those "two seasons" were 2002-03 and 2003-04? The 02-03 season included Artest's bizarro exchange with Pat Riley in Miami, his bizarro exchange with the cameraman in New York, about a zillion flagrant fouls that eventually led to some league-imposed suspensions, and then when the team did a complete meltdown in the first round against a vastly inferior Celtics team, Artest was last seen being dragged off the court by Mel Daniels before he could charge into the stands in Boston. The 03-04 season was better, but it still ended for all intents and purposes when Artest lost his composure and picked up that technical foul against Rip Hamilton in the waning minutes of a very close Game Six.

Here's a helpful refresher course:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2281289

The one thing I know for sure about my own personal All-Time Pacers team is that Ron Artest will not even be allowed in the building.

[count55]

I believe both sides have valid points, but can we please avoid derailing this into a Ron Artest thread?

thanks

[cdash]

I believe both sides have valid points, but can we please avoid derailing this into a Ron Artest thread?

thanks

Trigger happy.

[basketballwacko2]

Roger Brown baby!!!

[cdash]

His head was not really on straight for an entire season, ever. I assume those "two seasons" were 2002-03 and 2003-04? The 02-03 season included Artest's bizarro exchange with Pat Riley in Miami, his bizarro exchange with the cameraman in New York, about a zillion flagrant fouls that eventually led to some league-imposed suspensions, and then when the team did a complete meltdown in the first round against a vastly inferior Celtics team, Artest was last seen being dragged off the court by Mel Daniels before he could charge into the stands in Boston. The 03-04 season was better, but it still ended for all intents and purposes when Artest lost his composure and picked up that technical foul against Rip Hamilton in the waning minutes of a very close Game Six.

Here's a helpful refresher course:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2281289

The one thing I know for sure about my own personal All-Time Pacers team is that Ron Artest will not even be allowed in the building.

I tend to agree with mizzou on the Artest thing. Talent-wise, Artest may be up there, but I couldnt put him on an All-Time Pacer unless it was one that involved the five guys who sabotaged the franchise the most. My team would probably go something like....
C - Mel Daniels
PF - Jermaine O'Neal
SF - Jalen Rose
SG - Reggie Miller
PG - Mark Jackson

I am too young to know the pre-90s Pacers very well, so I'll go mainly with guys I am more familiar with. For some reason, one of my favorite jerseys ever is the road pinstripes unis with "Rose" on the back. I always thought it looked really cool.

[Wizop]

you have to start with the guys whose Jersey's are in the rafters so Mel, Raja, George, and Reggie. that leaves point guard. Mark has the numbers but Freddie Lewis has the rings. sticking with players who played most of their careers here, I'm going with Fritz and I think I'd back him up with Boo Boo (Don Buse) for his lock down defense. whose the rest of the second five? JO and Rik. Billy Knight. that leaves me looking for a second two guard and frankly we haven't had a lot of great ones even in the championship years. maybe Artest at three and move Knight to two although if you want to go Mark Jackson instead couldn't argue against it.

[Gremz]

C - Mel Daniels
PF - George McGinnis
SF- Ron Artest
SG - Reggie Miller
PG - Mark Jackson

[greenway84]

Harrison
Artest
Jackson
Daniels
Tinsley
And I have to have Shawne coming off the bench. Isiah would coach.

No but seriously.
Smits
George
Granger
Reggie
Jackson

[Dcbaseballer52]

Rik Smits/Brad Miller
George McInnis/Jermaine O'neal
Clark Kellogg/Danny Granger
Reggie Miller/Chuck Person
Mark Jackson/Billy Keller

[mizzoupacers]

First Team: Jackson, Miller, Brown, McGinnis, Daniels

Second Team: Vern Fleming, Person, Clark Kellogg (with Granger closing in), Jermaine O'Neal, Smits

I'm cheating a little by calling Chuck Person a shooting guard, but the Rifleman could've handled it. Also, the Pacers may very well have had a better pg way back in their ABA days than Fleming, but I'm not too familiar with those guys, and I always appreciated Fleming's steady play on both ends of the court.

Also, I think that McGinnis and JO might be pretty much of a toss-up at power forward. I'm giving George the nod because he played on teams that won championships. Not to mention that he did that cool thing where he shot with one hand--his hands were so damn big he didn't need to use both hands, it would be like you or me shooting a baseball at the basket, we'd only use one hand because both hands wouldn't even fit on the ball's surface.

I wish I could have seen McGinnis play with the Pacers, but there were no opportunities, the ABA was sort of an untelevised underground legend. I did get to see McGinnis play on an awe-inspiring Sixers team that pretty much had an All-Star at every position, even two-deep at some positions. The talent level on those Philadelphia teams just after the NBA-ABA merger was right up there with the Showtime Lakers or any of the top teams I've ever seen, although the chemistry was not quite as good. I still think the best NBA Finals I've ever seen was Sixers vs. Trailblazers in the late 1970s...Philadelphia rolled out their All-Stars and won the first two games, then Portland just absolutely went into The Zone for four straight games to win the title. Portland played almost perfect basketball for four straight games--and they had to, because the Sixers were freaking good.

Edit: How could I have forgotten Clark Kellogg?? Good call, DCbaseballer. I have to change my second team now because of you.

[Miller4ever]

Danny Granger will average 26-12-4-3-2 in his prime, and that's why he'll be right here:

Smitty (Must be with Reggie)
Jermaine O'Neal (The pre-jump-shot years)
Danny Granger (See above)
Reggie Miller
Mark Jackson

[cdash]

Danny Granger will average 26-12-4-3-2 in his prime, and that's why he'll be right here:

Smitty (Must be with Reggie)
Jermaine O'Neal (The pre-jump-shot years)
Danny Granger (See above)
Reggie Miller
Mark Jackson

No way in hell Granger ever approaches numbers like that. 12 rebounds? 3 steals? The league leaders in steals last year didnt even average 3 per game. If thats 3 blocks, only one player did that. The most I'd expect is 24-8-3-1-1...which I'd be very happy with.

[StephenJackson]

Danny Granger will average 26-12-4-3-2 in his prime, and that's why he'll be right here:

Smitty (Must be with Reggie)
Jermaine O'Neal (The pre-jump-shot years)
Danny Granger (See above)
Reggie Miller
Mark Jackson

No way in hell Granger ever approaches numbers like that. 12 rebounds? 3 steals? The league leaders in steals last year didnt even average 3 per game. If thats 3 blocks, only one player did that. The most I'd expect is 24-8-3-1-1...which I'd be very happy with.

I even think 8 boards is too high. Realistically I'd say around 6.

[Miller4ever]

It was a joke, but I really wanted him on the team. I'd say he makes 3-2-1 on dimes, swats, and swipes respectively. I think his rebounding would change depending on his inside shot attempts, since he's been learning to take people off the dribble, so he might get more offensive board opportunities. Also, he could see more action inside without a power forward for us at this point.

For next season, 19-8 is not an unreasonable expectation.