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Passan: Ricciardi shouldn

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Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#1 » by J-Roc » Sat Aug 1, 2009 2:20 am

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=A ... &type=lgns

He bungled the whole thing. He held when every iota of logic oozed sell. If that alone isn’t a fireable offense – and it is – surely combined with the Blue Jays’ performance and the Wells contract has Ricciardi earned his way to unemployment.


My read. Passan wanted to see the best pitcher in the game pitch some meaningful games for good teams. He's pissed. I actually have no problem with JP looking for full value. Only one team will win it all this year. All the losing teams will know they could have won had they traded for Halladay.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#2 » by Modern_epic » Sat Aug 1, 2009 2:26 am

The only people who seem to think JP did anything wrong this time seem to be fans of the Jays and fans of the Sox. Nobody he could deal with decided to tango with him, what's he gonna do?
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#3 » by Hoopstarr » Sat Aug 1, 2009 3:30 am

If JP actually made some of the trades other teams were proposing, he wouldn't survive at all, let alone his job. It sounds like Passan just wanted him to make a trade for the sake of making a trade. The US media blew this out of proportion from the beginning since big market teams were involved.

The Phillies were offering their B prospects, the Angels offer was laughable, the Dodgers could've offered a decent package but were never close, the Yankees didn't want to part with Joba/Hughes, the Sox didn't want to part with Bard/Kelly.

JP did the right thing by not giving in. I actually think he should've asked for even more from the Phillies. Keith Law said so himself, saying Happ is overrated, and I agree. I read that other people in the Phillies front office really wanted Doc thinking it would guaranteed 2 more deep playoff runs, but Amaro was scared to clean out the prospects in his first year as GM.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#4 » by Schad » Sat Aug 1, 2009 3:58 am

I don't disagree that JP has been less than impressive, but here's the great irony of that piece:

He fought his own little war, against the two big boys of the AL East, and he lost. The Blue Jays may one day be good again. They showed flashes earlier this season and have a decent core heavy on young pitching (Ricky Romero, Brett Cecil, Mark Rzepczynski and Scott Richmond, plus the injured Dustin McGowan, Shaun Marcum and Jesse Litsch with some keeper bats (Aaron Hill, Adam Lind and Travis Snider).


Romero: drafted by JP.
Cecil: drafted by JP.
Zip: drafted by JP.
Richmond: signed off the scrap heap by JP.
McGowan: precedes JP, but also might be done.
Marcum: drafted by JP.
Litsch: drafted by JP.
Hill: drafted by JP.
Lind: drafted by JP.
Snider: drafted by JP.


So, JP screwed up negotiations on Halladay by asking for too much, though that's very much debatable. But to list a bunch of cheap (seriously, people, Aaron Hill is making peanuts for years to come), homegrown players that JP brought into the fold as the core that could revive the team while simultaneously calling for him to be fired is absurd. There are reasons to want him out...this circumstance ain't one of them.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#5 » by Mustard_Tiger » Sat Aug 1, 2009 7:42 am

Passan's entire premise doesn't take into account the possibility that the Jays will contend next year, the financial benefit of having Roy Halladay on the Jays for this season and next, the possible alienation of a majority of Jays fans that would have come from a deal (especially one to Boston and New York), and the fact that JP isn't the only one making the decisions for the Jays (Beeston had the final say). There are simply a lot of factors involved in a possible deal that Passan doesn't mention. Oh, and JP may end up being fired this winter anyway.

I also think he is wrong about JP overplaying his hand (we don't even know what any of the offers were). I just don't think the team ever had any intention of dealing him unless he got a ridiculous offer. JP said as much for the entire month. All of the supposed posturing may not have been posturing at all. It may have actually been the truth.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#6 » by J-Roc » Sat Aug 1, 2009 2:08 pm

I think it it has to be th truth. Roy Halladay isn't just any good pitcher. Unlike a Johan Santana in Minny, Roy could very well be the best pitcher in Blue Jays history. It would be like the Yanks trading Jeter. The price isn't just a few prospects. Halladay means more to us than that.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#7 » by zilby » Sat Aug 1, 2009 2:34 pm

it was the right move not trading doc.

the offers were not good and he means too much to us to let him go.

otherwise, JP is still a failure at everything else.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#8 » by youngLion » Sat Aug 1, 2009 6:01 pm

zilby wrote:it was the right move not trading doc.

the offers were not good and he means too much to us to let him go.

otherwise, JP is still a failure at everything else.


I 'm tired of these substance-free posts that contribute nothing at all. Try to provide some evidence to back up your claims. Riccardi has an excellent track record in the draft.

Shad wrote:Romero: drafted by JP.
Cecil: drafted by JP.
Zip: drafted by JP.
Richmond: signed off the scrap heap by JP.
Marcum: drafted by JP.
Litsch: drafted by JP.
Hill: drafted by JP.
Lind: drafted by JP.
Snider: drafted by JP.


I honestly don't understand how people can say that Riccardi is a useless failure one minute, and then turn around and praise the young players he's drafted and claim that the team can contend next year. You can't have it both ways.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#9 » by -MetA4- » Sat Aug 1, 2009 10:18 pm

Boston's final offer was apparently Buchholz + Bowden + Masterson + Hagadone.

Thats a pretty good offer, but I'm not sure if its enough to send Halladay to an AL East rival for the rest of his career.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#10 » by zilby » Sun Aug 2, 2009 12:07 am

youngLion wrote:
zilby wrote:it was the right move not trading doc.

the offers were not good and he means too much to us to let him go.

otherwise, JP is still a failure at everything else.


I 'm tired of these substance-free posts that contribute nothing at all. Try to provide some evidence to back up your claims. Riccardi has an excellent track record in the draft.

Shad wrote:Romero: drafted by JP.
Cecil: drafted by JP.
Zip: drafted by JP.
Richmond: signed off the scrap heap by JP.
Marcum: drafted by JP.
Litsch: drafted by JP.
Hill: drafted by JP.
Lind: drafted by JP.
Snider: drafted by JP.


I honestly don't understand how people can say that Riccardi is a useless failure one minute, and then turn around and praise the young players he's drafted and claim that the team can contend next year. You can't have it both ways.

i don't always praise his drafting and the team won't contend next year.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#11 » by Schad » Sun Aug 2, 2009 1:00 am

zilby wrote:
i don't always praise his drafting and the team won't contend next year.
Only 3 of 9 people on this list have proved their worth.


IMO, the analysis of a GM's performance with regards to a prospect begins when they're drafted and ends with their stature when they successfully graduate to the majors; a guy who excels at that level earns the GM greater plaudits, certainly, but in MLB any player who rises to the bigs is a success from a drafting standpoint.

Take Marcum; even if he never recovers, the fact that his labrum frayed doesn't make him a bad draft pick. And if, god forbid, Snider falls flat on his face and becomes a fourth outfielder, it's 100% between his ears (or a physical breakdown); the pick was still successful, because Ricciardi turned a mid-round pick into a top-10 prospect in all of baseball. To view it otherwise would be like blaming Brian Cashman for the fact that Chuck Knoblauch forgot how to throw a baseball 30 feet.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#12 » by Mustard_Tiger » Sun Aug 2, 2009 6:08 am

-MetA4- wrote:Boston's final offer was apparently Buchholz + Bowden + Masterson + Hagadone.

Thats a pretty good offer, but I'm not sure if its enough to send Halladay to an AL East rival for the rest of his career.

How do you know that was the offer?
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#13 » by Mustard_Tiger » Sun Aug 2, 2009 6:10 am

youngLion wrote:
zilby wrote:it was the right move not trading doc.

the offers were not good and he means too much to us to let him go.

otherwise, JP is still a failure at everything else.


I 'm tired of these substance-free posts that contribute nothing at all. Try to provide some evidence to back up your claims. Riccardi has an excellent track record in the draft.

And an excellent trade record. And an excellent scrap heap pickup record. Really the only thing that JP seems to struggle with is signing big free agents (though the Burnett deal was good).
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#14 » by zilby » Sun Aug 2, 2009 2:05 pm

Mustard_Tiger wrote:
youngLion wrote:
zilby wrote:it was the right move not trading doc.

the offers were not good and he means too much to us to let him go.

otherwise, JP is still a failure at everything else.


I 'm tired of these substance-free posts that contribute nothing at all. Try to provide some evidence to back up your claims. Riccardi has an excellent track record in the draft.

And an excellent trade record. And an excellent scrap heap pickup record. Really the only thing that JP seems to struggle with is signing big free agents (though the Burnett deal was good).

how can he possibly have a great trade record if he hardly ever makes a trade? he doesnt make any moves!
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#15 » by Modern_epic » Sun Aug 2, 2009 2:39 pm

zilby wrote:
Mustard_Tiger wrote:
youngLion wrote:
I 'm tired of these substance-free posts that contribute nothing at all. Try to provide some evidence to back up your claims. Riccardi has an excellent track record in the draft.

And an excellent trade record. And an excellent scrap heap pickup record. Really the only thing that JP seems to struggle with is signing big free agents (though the Burnett deal was good).

how can he possibly have a great trade record if he hardly ever makes a trade? he doesnt make any moves!


Right, and there is the second possible legitimate flaw in JPs GMing. The trades he has made he has done well on, so why doessn't he make more.

He is either too conservative, and/or waiting until the jays had a deeper farm system, like with his switch to HS drafting.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#16 » by J-Roc » Sun Aug 2, 2009 2:41 pm

How was the Burnett deal good? A a couple of mediocre seasons followed by one good season and then he bolted out of town for nothing. The BJ Ryan deal was better IMO. He was a great closer his first season and then he was felled by injuries. Can't help that. But he was as good as advertised when he signed. AJ was not as good as the hype when he was signed.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#17 » by -MetA4- » Sun Aug 2, 2009 4:14 pm

J-Roc wrote:How was the Burnett deal good? A a couple of mediocre seasons followed by one good season and then he bolted out of town for nothing. The BJ Ryan deal was better IMO. He was a great closer his first season and then he was felled by injuries. Can't help that. But he was as good as advertised when he signed. AJ was not as good as the hype when he was signed.


AJ Burnett had 3 above-average seasons for us (albeit he was only fully healthy in his last one) and he didn't bolt for nothing...he bolted and we were perfectly happy getting James Paxton and Jake Marisnick, the two high upside players we drafted with the picks we received for him leaving.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#18 » by tsherkin » Mon Aug 3, 2009 3:49 am

Mustard_Tiger wrote:Passan's entire premise doesn't take into account the possibility that the Jays will contend next year, the financial benefit of having Roy Halladay on the Jays for this season and next, the possible alienation of a majority of Jays fans that would have come from a deal (especially one to Boston and New York), and the fact that JP isn't the only one making the decisions for the Jays (Beeston had the final say). There are simply a lot of factors involved in a possible deal that Passan doesn't mention. Oh, and JP may end up being fired this winter anyway.


I'm curious what makes you think that contending is a legitimate possibility for us next year. Not dissenting, per se, but Boston and New York are two of the three best teams in the league right now by record and that doesn't figure to change much. They're on pace to win 95-97 games each this year. For New York, that's where they've been for 12 years, with only 2 exceptions in that timeframe (2000 and 2008). They're not likely to fall off next year, barring major injuries or what-not. Boston has been there for 5 of the last 6 years, a run including a pair of championships and two other appearances in the ALCS. They aren't much figuring to tail off and let us through either.

So we basically have to post an 8-game improvement over the best record we've had in the last 15 years (the 88 wins we had in 1998) or a 10-game improvement over the 87 wins we had in 2006. We have to start winning like we did in the early 90s, when we had a huge payroll and a lot of really awesome players. Then we can make the playoffs. And this is ignoring Tampa, who's still playing pretty well this year and figures to still be a 54% to 55% W/L team next year.

I like where we're going to be with our pitching staff in like 2-5 years; I think if we have anything to say about Ricciardi, it's that he has done a phenomenal job acquiring young talent. Cecil, Romero, Rzepczynski, Purcey, these guys are all really interesting. If Marcum comes back with control and McGowan comes back with his velocity, then we have a compelling rotation, some good MR options and some guys who'll be back up in the majors soon. Plus, Roenicke and Stewart are intriguing.

And we've got some power in the lineup now that Hill and Lind are hitting, but we still need another bat, preferably behind the plate. I guess Encarnacion is an interesting option as a DH (Lord knows he doesn't belong on the field...), but then we need a 3B to fill the void left by Rolen's departure.

You know, I had some unflattering things to say about Ricciardi at the beginning of this season, but the more I look at it, despite the fact that he's a loose-lipped idiot with the media, he does seem to get certain things done and I'd be interested to see what he could achieve with a competitive payroll. If he can somehow get rid of Wells (who's having a season with an OBP of 84 that looks like 2007, but with more GDPs and maybe a career-high in SB), then maybe he'll have that extra money that could be used on someone significant.

It may be a corporate smokescreen, but I know that this was said about a week ago:

"The Blue Jays are committed to winning," said Viner, who runs the division of Rogers Communications Inc., responsible for the club. "There is no pressure whatsoever for them to reduce payroll."


From that same article:

The Blue Jays have drawn 1,238,569 fans through 52 dates for an average of 23,819, compared to 1,438,408 fans for an average of 27,662 at the same point last year.

"We sort of stopped free ticket giveaways and our actual revenue per ticket has risen sharply this year," said Viner. "We're going to beat our budget and that's with the existing player payroll. That's with the combination of reducing expenses, especially on the business side, and getting more revenue in."

Unsaid is that the Blue Jays also reduced their payroll from about $95 million (U.S.) to somewhere in the $81 million range this year, although they have increased spending on scouting and player development.

What that all means for the payroll next season remains a question.

"If we had the opportunity to improve the team, we would improve the team, especially if we felt it was going to drive our revenues," said Viner. "What we're going to try and do is raise revenues to be in line (with spending) and we think we can do that and we think we've taken the right steps, and we'll be even more aggressive on that front."

Viner also insisted the instability atop the team – new Rogers CEO Nadir Mohamed isn't believed to be as enamoured with ownership of the club as the late Ted Rogers, Beeston is actively searching for his replacement, Ricciardi's contract expires after the 2010 season – isn't a problem.

"We think (Ricciardi) is here to stay and although Beeston is interim, it's been tough to get rid of him," said Viner. ``Seriously, we are quite close to identifying a successor to Paul, he's been quite active on that file, and there are some things that should probably be left to Paul's successor."
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#19 » by Mustard_Tiger » Mon Aug 3, 2009 8:49 pm

tsherkin wrote:I'm curious what makes you think that contending is a legitimate possibility for us next year.

The fact that they have been the 5th best team in baseball (adjusted standings, look them up).

Not dissenting, per se, but Boston and New York are two of the three best teams in the league right now by record and that doesn't figure to change much. They're on pace to win 95-97 games each this year. For New York, that's where they've been for 12 years, with only 2 exceptions in that timeframe (2000 and 2008). They're not likely to fall off next year, barring major injuries or what-not. Boston has been there for 5 of the last 6 years, a run including a pair of championships and two other appearances in the ALCS. They aren't much figuring to tail off and let us through either.

I'm not saying it's likely. I just said it was a possibility if JP makes the right moves in the offseason. It would help if he was actually given money to sign players, but it looks like he'll have to make due with trades and in-system upgrades (Snider, Marcum, and maybe even Dopirak as a platoon 1B with Lyle).

I like where we're going to be with our pitching staff in like 2-5 years; I think if we have anything to say about Ricciardi, it's that he has done a phenomenal job acquiring young talent. Cecil, Romero, Rzepczynski, Purcey, these guys are all really interesting. If Marcum comes back with control and McGowan comes back with his velocity, then we have a compelling rotation, some good MR options and some guys who'll be back up in the majors soon. Plus, Roenicke and Stewart are intriguing.

Their rotation will be one of the best in the AL next season if Halladay is on the part. They will be one of the top run prevention teams in the league.

And we've got some power in the lineup now that Hill and Lind are hitting, but we still need another bat, preferably behind the plate. I guess Encarnacion is an interesting option as a DH (Lord knows he doesn't belong on the field...), but then we need a 3B to fill the void left by Rolen's departure.

Losing Rolen makes it more difficult to contend next season, but their offense should still be fine, provided that Snider makes the jump well.

You know, I had some unflattering things to say about Ricciardi at the beginning of this season, but the more I look at it, despite the fact that he's a loose-lipped idiot with the media, he does seem to get certain things done and I'd be interested to see what he could achieve with a competitive payroll. If he can somehow get rid of Wells (who's having a season with an OBP of 84 that looks like 2007, but with more GDPs and maybe a career-high in SB), then maybe he'll have that extra money that could be used on someone significant.

You have to give up on the entire getting rid of Vernon Wells thing. He's not going anywhere. He's getting paid 100+ million for the next 5 years by the Jays, and there is nothing JP or anybody else can do about it. As it stands right now, Wells' contract is probably the 2nd worst in baseball.

A team can still contend with Wells on the roster (he's not as bad of a hitter as he's shown this season), but it would help if they actually moved him to a corner OF position, and moved Rios to CF.
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Re: Passan: Ricciardi shouldn 

Post#20 » by tsherkin » Tue Aug 4, 2009 7:10 am

Mustard_Tiger wrote:The fact that they have been the 5th best team in baseball (adjusted standings, look them up).


This conversation begins and ends as follows:

"Are we a top 3 team? No? Then we're not in contention."

Our division contains two of the three best teams in baseball annually, and that's not even counting the defending AL champions, who continue to be better than us. It's a matter of payroll in the case of Boston and New York, and accumulated talent in Tampa's case. We don't have the juice to compete because Rogers isn't feeding us the kind of money we need to do so. It's hard luck. Still, it'll be nice to see us playing well and competing against the rest of the league, which is about all we can ask barring a major stroke of luck.

I'm not saying it's likely. I just said it was a possibility if JP makes the right moves in the offseason. It would help if he was actually given money to sign players, but it looks like he'll have to make due with trades and in-system upgrades (Snider, Marcum, and maybe even Dopirak as a platoon 1B with Lyle).


I will grant you that if Snider makes the leap, then we look a little different. If our lineup contains a workable Snider with Lind and Hill, then we're looking good there and our pitching is hot. But it'll be really, really tough to overcome what Boston and New York have when we are handcuffed financially.

Their rotation will be one of the best in the AL next season if Halladay is on the part. They will be one of the top run prevention teams in the league.


Although I'm not a Litsch fan and I'm leery of Marcum's return from TJ surgery because control (his forte) is the last thing to return (and of course I'm scared for McGowan's future), I'm hugely excited about Rzepczynski, Cecil and Romero (and our two new guys, too).

Losing Rolen makes it more difficult to contend next season, but their offense should still be fine, provided that Snider makes the jump well.


Count me among those who hates that we went from Gold Glove 3B to "worst defensive 3B in the league." And we're HOPING that Encarnacion doesn't continue to play as poorly as he has this year (I guess that's lingering injury issues?) and hoping he gets back to the form he evidenced last year instead of what he'd been doing the previous year, which is about .280 and 15 HRs, with a 2:1 K:BB ratio.

You have to give up on the entire getting rid of Vernon Wells thing. He's not going anywhere. He's getting paid 100+ million for the next 5 years by the Jays, and there is nothing JP or anybody else can do about it. As it stands right now, Wells' contract is probably the 2nd worst in baseball.


A man can dream, Mustard_Tiger, a man can dream. The money tied up in Wells' contract could be better used in many other ways. I imagine Wells will stop losing his balls at home at some point and next year should be back to the .280 hitter who hits 25-30 HRs on the season; he's a good player for all the vitriol against him. Maybe he's still injured this year? His home/road split doesn't really support that but he's been godawful this year, as bad as he was in 2007, when he WAS injured.

I don't hold Wells' contract, nor his continued presence on the roster, against JP, but I don't have to like that he's on the team and I CAN continue to hope we'll have a stroke of good luck and be able to foist him off on someone else.

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