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Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History

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Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#1 » by Peteros » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:32 am

ESPN - The Jays lost to the Twins on Wednesday in front of a crowd of 11,159, which was the smallest in the 20-year history of Rogers Centre. It surpassed the previous low of 12,571 against Texas on April 30, 2002. Toronto's lowest attendance ever was 10,074 on April 17, 1979, against the Chicago White Sox.

"In order to get back to where we're going, we certainly need our fans out here," manager Cito Gaston said. "We need their support. Hopefully they'll realize that and come out and support us."


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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#2 » by Hoopstarr » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:02 am

And it was for a Halladay start. I heard Mike Wilner mention a couple months ago that if you take out opening night and the Burnett return, Halladay has had the worst avg attendance of any Jays starter. That's just pathetic. Maybe Rogers will now realize the simple concept of "YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!".
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#3 » by Attonitus » Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:17 pm

The numbers are going to continue to dip until Riccardi is removed and Rogers shows a renewed commitment to this team. Managment wrote off this season a long time ago and yet the media makes it look like it's the fan's fault this team is doing so poorly and that the fans have given up on the team, maybe they should investigate why.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#4 » by J-Roc » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:24 pm

About time regular fans wake up and realize there is no point in following the Toronto Blue Jays. They are a team with hardly any chance of winning every year. I grew up wondering why any fan of the Kansas City Royals ever bothered going to a game. Since Barry Bonds and Bobby Bonilla, I don't get how a generation of fans exists in Pittsburgh.

Baseball is a great game. My favourite. If you want to watch it, it's become clear you need to follow a different team.

Talk on the radio yesterday was about how the Jays could get fans back. Simple. Win. Jays need to stand up and refuse to become like the Royals and Pirates. Show some cojones. Make something happen, like getting out of the division or expanding the playoffs. It's disgusting that our ownership doesn't even complain publicly. It's like they don't care.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#5 » by Avenger » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:03 pm

this is just part of the vicious cycle. The dumb***** at Rogers will use this as an excuse to cut the payroll even more and the attendance will continue to go down when ownership shows no commitment to winning. Rogers either needs to sell the **** team or make a brave move and increase the payroll to compete in the next 3 years. If the fans continue to not show despite the Blue Jays being in the thick of things, then Rogers has a real excuse to not care.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#6 » by Mustard_Tiger » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:48 pm

J-Roc wrote:About time regular fans wake up and realize there is no point in following the Toronto Blue Jays. They are a team with hardly any chance of winning every year. I grew up wondering why any fan of the Kansas City Royals ever bothered going to a game. Since Barry Bonds and Bobby Bonilla, I don't get how a generation of fans exists in Pittsburgh.

Baseball is a great game. My favourite. If you want to watch it, it's become clear you need to follow a different team.

What a ridiculously ignorant post. What's the point in watching the Raptors (or the Leafs, or any freaking professional sports team that doesn't have a chance at winning it all), then? As long as the Raptors, for example, have a mediocre franchise player in Chris Bosh, they will never contend in the NBA with teams like the Lakers, Cavs, and Celtics dominating in it. Does that mean I should simply stop watching the Raptors, or that there is no entertainment value to be gained from doing so? Of course not.

Here's the bottomline...I don't watch baseball (or for that matter, basketball) because I have any expectation that the Jays/Raptors will actually win a championship...I watch because I love both of the sports. Being a true fan of something is more than just watching a winning team.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#7 » by tsherkin » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:54 pm

J-Roc's post isn't ignorant.

While it's true that the "love of the game" can inspire a lot of us to watch, years of futility and a clear and plain lack of intelligent and supportive management do not make a fan want to stay with a team. The die-hards will, but those who love the sport will generally drift towards more interesting games that do not feature an almost-guaranteed script, the way the Jays seem to run.

The Raptors at least make the playoffs; they contend within their division and they make off-season moves that try to build the team. The Raptors have an intriguing lineup going into this season.

The Jays have a dwindling payroll, gave up an asset for nothing and continue to play mediocre baseball. We're on pace for about 73 wins, which would actually be the team outperforming the Pythagorean prediction for the team. We suck this year, and we've continued to miss the playoffs for a decade and a half now. That's a turnoff for some fans, because it feels like the season is pointless after a time. We don't have the money to compete, we consistently play a brand of baseball that is beneath even the level of talent that's on the team. Sometimes, that's pretty good baseball. This year, we're worse than usual because we've traded away Rios and Rolen, Wells is having an epic-fail season and we lost three of our starters from the previous season, but then we also didn't spend the money to keep all of our draft picks and we know that we're not going to make a big splash in free agency.

In any case, whatever your position, feeling that the Jays aren't worth watching isn't ignorant, it's simply a different opinion.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#8 » by wicked_crossova » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:46 pm

Hoopstarr wrote:if you take out opening night and the Burnett return, Halladay has had the worst avg attendance of any Jays starter.


wtf? Ive heard the exact opposite, that he draws more fans (not only in Rogers Center) then any other starter by far.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#9 » by Stanford » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:24 pm

Mustard_Tiger wrote:I watch because I love both of the sports.


Me too, on tv.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#10 » by J-Roc » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:20 am

I tried to differentiate my post from simply saying "I won't watch if they don't win". That could be ignorant.

What I don't like is that the "system" they are in practically doesn't allow the Jays to win. They're in the East. Only 4 teams make the playoffs. The system sucks. How can we honestly have fun tuning in each year and just hoping our team catches lightning in a bottle?? Every April, the whole "boys of summer" thing gets us excited, but by June or July the season is over. The system is broken. If, as people say, the Jays will never get out of the east and the playoffs will never be expanded...then I'm sorry, it's pointless following the Jays. Follow the Milwaukee Brewers. The "system" they are in allows them at least a fightin' chance.

I can only assume most Jays fans these days are actually just into fantasy sports (which I'm not). It's the only way I can see one staying interested in the team.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#11 » by Test of Wills » Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:15 am

This is team is hitting rock bottom in all standards. J-Roc has a point. With the Jays in a division where 2 powerhouses are deemed to make the playoffs and a young, promising team are only headed on the way up how the heck do we even have a chance?!

It's we either TRY to build a winner which JP and this ownership isn't trying to do OR we show some nuts and go to the league office and speak up.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#12 » by Mustard_Tiger » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:11 am

tsherkin wrote:The Raptors at least make the playoffs

You do realize that the only reason the Raptors make the playoffs is because 16 teams make it, right? They are no more competitive than the Jays are. Particularly in 2007 and 2008 when the Jays were one of the better teams in baseball.

In any case, whatever your position, feeling that the Jays aren't worth watching isn't ignorant, it's simply a different opinion.

If he still plans to watch the Raptors next month, then yes, it's an ignorant opinion. In terms of being a true contender (or a "winning team"), there isn't much hope for either of these franchises for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#13 » by Mustard_Tiger » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:19 am

J-Roc wrote:What I don't like is that the "system" they are in practically doesn't allow the Jays to win. They're in the East. Only 4 teams make the playoffs. The system sucks. How can we honestly have fun tuning in each year and just hoping our team catches lightning in a bottle??

You seem to think that the only enjoyment a person can get out of watching sports is winning, and it's just not true. If that was true, I wouldn't be watching the Blue Jays in September every year or the Raptors at all (they've been a terrible franchise for most of their history, and I've never had any hope that they could truly contend in the NBA for a championship).

Every April, the whole "boys of summer" thing gets us excited, but by June or July the season is over. The system is broken. If, as people say, the Jays will never get out of the east and the playoffs will never be expanded...then I'm sorry, it's pointless following the Jays. Follow the Milwaukee Brewers. The "system" they are in allows them at least a fightin' chance.

Wrong. The Tampa Bay Rays proved last year that with proper management and a good ownership you can win in the AL East.
I can only assume most Jays fans these days are actually just into fantasy sports (which I'm not). It's the only way I can see one staying interested in the team.

True baseball fans will watch the games without the incentive of wins.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#14 » by J-Roc » Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:00 pm

Let me try again. In a regular sport like basketball or hockey, our team has a legitimate chance to compete. Let's say it's a 50-50 thing whether we'd be a winning or losing team. It's all up to the GM and the players and how the other teams perform. Even when your team loses, there's enjoyment because you can see how the team needs to improve, and you follow them as they attempt to approve.

With the Jays in MLB's AL East, you don't have a 50-50 shot at making the playoffs. It's like a 25-75 shot. Yes, Tampa last year pulled it off. They had a chance to win the World Series. They blew it, and now they're 9.5GB the Sox for the Wild Card.

I'm actually trying to give credit to those who say JP isn't that bad a GM. The system is broken, so it doesn't really matter who our GM is. And to clarify, I'm not saying we shouldn't follow baseball. I'm saying it makes little sense to follow the Jays (or Rays or Orioles). Maybe fans in Pittsburgh or Kansas City don't care about attempting to win, but in Toronto we're bigger than that.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#15 » by why22 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:28 pm

i hope this is a wake up call that we want a winning team, stupid rogers im ashgamed to call myself a customer of them
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#16 » by Michael Bradley » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:00 pm

I actually prefer the baseball playoff format. Reward a team based on their success, not on their mediocrity. Since the Jays last made the playoffs (93) every team in the league has made the playoffs at least once except the Royals, Pirates, Expos/Nats, and Jays. Three of the worst run teams in pro sports + the Blue Jays. The only reason the Jays complain is because of the AL East, but the Rays of 2008 are always going to be the counter argument.

I can't stand the NBA/NHL format. Yes, the Raptors making the playoffs is exciting to watch, but being a .500 team in the playoffs and getting wiped out in the first round is not an accomplishment. It's almost like pity.

The Jays had the best pitcher in baseball for seven years. They had ownership willing to spend money for three straight years (2006, 2007, 2008). That resulted in 87, 83, and 86 wins respectively. Good, but not good enough. However, if Ricciardi had made better moves, things might have been different. Just because the margin for error is miniscule doesn't mean it is impossible.

I don't know what ownership will do this off-season. Based on what has happened over the last year, I would imagine that increasing payroll is almost a laughable concept at this point. Even if they remain constant with payroll (~$80 million), they would still have to move guys like Overbay to add any type of positive impact talent to the roster. The only way attendance will increase is by putting a good team on the field. I just hope if the Jays are not increasing payroll that they simply dump everyone (Roy, Downs, Overbay, Wells+half his salary, etc).
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#17 » by Mustard_Tiger » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:37 pm

J-Roc wrote:Let me try again. In a regular sport like basketball or hockey, our team has a legitimate chance to compete. Let's say it's a 50-50 thing whether we'd be a winning or losing team. It's all up to the GM and the players and how the other teams perform. Even when your team loses, there's enjoyment because you can see how the team needs to improve, and you follow them as they attempt to approve.

The 2009 Raptors have no chance to win a championship, and until they get rid of Bosh, the team's ceiling will not be a championship contender, not in a league full of the Cavs, Lakers, Celtics... So why are you planning to watch the team this year?


I'm actually trying to give credit to those who say JP isn't that bad a GM. The system is broken, so it doesn't really matter who our GM is. And to clarify, I'm not saying we shouldn't follow baseball. I'm saying it makes little sense to follow the Jays (or Rays or Orioles). Maybe fans in Pittsburgh or Kansas City don't care about attempting to win, but in Toronto we're bigger than that.

It would make little sense if you think the only enjoyment a fan gets out of watching a team is winning, but that just isn't true. There is a reason why I watch the Jays in September or the Raptors at all.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#18 » by tsherkin » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:47 pm

Michael Bradley wrote:I actually prefer the baseball playoff format. Reward a team based on their success, not on their mediocrity. Since the Jays last made the playoffs (93) every team in the league has made the playoffs at least once except the Royals, Pirates, Expos/Nats, and Jays. Three of the worst run teams in pro sports + the Blue Jays. The only reason the Jays complain is because of the AL East, but the Rays of 2008 are always going to be the counter argument.


The problem with referencing the Rays is that the Yanks and BoSox were considerably worse than their standard performance.

The Yanks were about 7 wins lower than their standard performance over the decade last year, and the Rays made a big and surprising push to win the second-most games in the division.

Unfortunately, we haven't had the luxury of sucking ass-balls for years, so we haven't drafted like them. David Price? First overall in the first round. Evan Longoria? First overall in the third round. Delmon Young (who turned into Matt Garza)? First overall in the first round. BJ Upton? First overall in the second round. Hell, they drafted Josh Hamilton first overall but left him available in the Rule 5 draft.

James Shields was drafted 6th in the 16th round (won 14 games last year), Sonnanstine was drafted 4th in the 13th round and won 13 games.

The point is, year after year, they've nabbed significant players that formed their core from the top end of the draft. We have not had that luxury, and so we did not have a surprising season the way they did. There's no comparison with Toronto. We've been good enough to be competitive in other divisions, but we can't compete in this division. The Rays leapt forward after mediocrity from years of drafting at the top, which we haven't done, so they are a meaningless point of comparison.

The Jays had the best pitcher in baseball for seven years. They had ownership willing to spend money for three straight years (2006, 2007, 2008). That resulted in 87, 83, and 86 wins respectively. Good, but not good enough. However, if Ricciardi had made better moves, things might have been different. Just because the margin for error is miniscule doesn't mean it is impossible.


Consider though that we faced two in-division teams that averaged around 95 wins; what other division in the AL could say that? In the LEAGUE?

We'd be a lot better off financially if we weren't saddled with Godfrey's little-abortion-that-couldn't, Wells. Suddenly, that $80-85M payroll isn't so bad, because we could have two valuable players in place of one guy not worth his money and keeping us down, that's certainly true. And if we weren't paying Ryan to sit on his ass off of our roster, that's another $10M/season we could be using, so yeah, there are big mistakes that have been made that make our modest payroll worse than it could be.

Still, we're not in a position to replicate what the Rays did, and there's a reason that the Yanks and BoSox have consistently competed for a spot in the ALCS over the last decade.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#19 » by Bam-Bam Bigelow » Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:35 pm

MLB is run horribly in terms of being fair to all its teams. Until a cap is put in, nothing will really change. The draft is a complete joke. But Selig won't do anything and the powerful players union has shown it doesn't give a **** about the fans.

Still the Jays had their chances but horrible hitting ruined it. But now, the margin for error has become even smaller since JP first took over. The yankees made terrible signings in the past but still made the playoffs with their huge payroll (70 mill+ over the NEXT highest team). Now the Yankees finally made some smart signings (Teix, Sabathia) and have basically locked up the division (atleast a playoff spot) for likely the next few years. So its the Jays fighting it out with Boston, Tampa and the rest of the AL for one playoff spot (teams outside of the AL East can boost their record by facing weaker teams).

Shouldn't be hard to see why Jays fans are frustrated and the attendance reflects it. Maybe Selig will take notice and do something or say bye to baseball in Toronto.
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Re: Rogers Centre Hosts Its Smallest Crowd In History 

Post#20 » by Michael Bradley » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:06 am

tsherkin wrote:
Michael Bradley wrote:I actually prefer the baseball playoff format. Reward a team based on their success, not on their mediocrity. Since the Jays last made the playoffs (93) every team in the league has made the playoffs at least once except the Royals, Pirates, Expos/Nats, and Jays. Three of the worst run teams in pro sports + the Blue Jays. The only reason the Jays complain is because of the AL East, but the Rays of 2008 are always going to be the counter argument.


The problem with referencing the Rays is that the Yanks and BoSox were considerably worse than their standard performance.

The Yanks were about 7 wins lower than their standard performance over the decade last year, and the Rays made a big and surprising push to win the second-most games in the division.

Unfortunately, we haven't had the luxury of sucking ass-balls for years, so we haven't drafted like them. David Price? First overall in the first round. Evan Longoria? First overall in the third round. Delmon Young (who turned into Matt Garza)? First overall in the first round. BJ Upton? First overall in the second round. Hell, they drafted Josh Hamilton first overall but left him available in the Rule 5 draft.

James Shields was drafted 6th in the 16th round (won 14 games last year), Sonnanstine was drafted 4th in the 13th round and won 13 games.

The point is, year after year, they've nabbed significant players that formed their core from the top end of the draft. We have not had that luxury, and so we did not have a surprising season the way they did. There's no comparison with Toronto. We've been good enough to be competitive in other divisions, but we can't compete in this division. The Rays leapt forward after mediocrity from years of drafting at the top, which we haven't done, so they are a meaningless point of comparison.


The Yankees were worse in 2008 because the Rays took a giant leap forward, not because it was a down year for them. If the Rays were still a 65-win laughing stock in 2008, then the Yankees probably would have made the playoffs as a Wild Card and the Jays would have won 90 games. The Rays being better made everyone else in the divison worse. Maybe it was lightening in a bottle by the Rays, but fact is it happened. It CAN happen. So if the Jays ever complain about it, then most observers will point to the Rays.

The thing is, the Jays did not have to suck to win the East since JPR took over. They just needed to GREAT at moving around and/or acquiring assets. I think even JP's biggest supporters will admit he has not been great at that. Over the last five years the Jays have lost Carlos Delgado, Kelvim Escobar, AJ Burnett, Ted Lilly, Alex Rios, Frank Catalanotto, and Justin Speier. In return? They have Adam Lind, Zach Jackson, Brett Cecil, Jacob Marisnick, Kevin Ahrens, Justin Jackson, Trystan Magnuson, and Eric Eiland. All of those guys were picks acquired via losing free agents. In other words, the Jays lost all that MLB talent within a five year span and only have Adam Lind to show for it. Everyone else is either years away or has little to no MLB success. How can the team ever replenish its asset base that way?

Then you factor the Jays are paying $15 million to BJ Ryan for sitting at home, after already paying Koskie and Thomas $15 million combined for playing elsewhere. Whether you want to blame Godfrey or whoever for the Wells contract, that is going to be an albatross for the next five years as well. These things add up and obviously the team is never going to climb over the hump when making those types of stupid decisions.


Consider though that we faced two in-division teams that averaged around 95 wins; what other division in the AL could say that? In the LEAGUE?

We'd be a lot better off financially if we weren't saddled with Godfrey's little-abortion-that-couldn't, Wells. Suddenly, that $80-85M payroll isn't so bad, because we could have two valuable players in place of one guy not worth his money and keeping us down, that's certainly true. And if we weren't paying Ryan to sit on his ass off of our roster, that's another $10M/season we could be using, so yeah, there are big mistakes that have been made that make our modest payroll worse than it could be.

Still, we're not in a position to replicate what the Rays did, and there's a reason that the Yanks and BoSox have consistently competed for a spot in the ALCS over the last decade.


We are not in any position to duplicate the Rays now. That ship has sailed with this roster. But it was there in 2006-08. The team just needed a better GM to pull it off.

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