Time for the Rondo Era

[elrod enchilada]

http://www.realgm.com/src_feature_piece ... e_and_now/

[JSABleedsGreen]

Elrod you make a lot of great points. It was a good article to read and i could relate a lot of my personal feelings about this team.

Your points about Paul Pierce being Paul Pierce is 100% accurate.

Your point about Ray Allen was also accurate, except that when we acquired Ray, my expectations was that we have a solid 2nd best player, playing 3rd player for us behind KG and Pierce. By far he was better than any 3rd option than any other team in 2008. He had to become a 2nd option last year with KG going down and I think Ray did a hell of job picking up the slack....but he looked worn down after the bulls series and therefore struggled against orlando's taller set. Ray Allen this year looks washed up.....he doesn't even look like the Ray Allen of 2008. I think it's fair to say that Ray Allen of 2009 looks a lot more older.

KG is not the KG of old and KG will never be the KG of old either. KG could potentially be close to the KG of 2008 but even that is a bit of a stretch. KG's injury is affecting more than most people think and probably a combination of his age is making it more and more apparent. It's not easy as a 23 year old to come back from an injury and have it weigh on your conscious everytime you attack the hoop or jump or stop and pivot.....forget how a 33 year old feels. Just think about this.....he still signed through the 2012 season. Ouch. I love KG and his attitude and love for the game and I hope later this year all these issues I have become mute.....but I have a feeling we are drastically seeing the Old big 3 from late 80's/early 90's.....where their game diminished very fast but we were still hoping for the glory days.

Now for my last comment on Rondo. I think Rondo is talented. He's a hell of player and hell of a PG. I see him being a Jkidd type of player, maybe better and that's freaking awesome. However he's the not the player i would build around unless you give him the players that best suit him and that's players with flash who can get on the break and run with him. A type of cast that Steve Nash has. Unlike Nash though, Rondo is ineffective in a half court set because he cannot shoot jumpers. He cannot shoot free throws. Rondo is an awesome fast break PG but he's an average PG (maybe a little bit above average) in a half court set. That's why i agreed with the comments that Doc made about some of today's guards not being able to hang with the type of game in the 80's. in the 80's the game was more physical. I still like Rondo and I like that fact that Ainge kept Rondo in the fold for the next 5 years but I don't think he's the player to build around....otherwise IMO we are looking at the Nets all over again.

[Wolves2011]

Now for my last comment on Rondo. I think Rondo is talented. He's a hell of player and hell of a PG. I see him being a Jkidd type of player, maybe better and that's freaking awesome. However he's the not the player i would build around unless you give him the players that best suit him and that's players with flash who can get on the break and run with him. A type of cast that Steve Nash has. Unlike Nash though, Rondo is ineffective in a half court set because he cannot shoot jumpers. He cannot shoot free throws. Rondo is an awesome fast break PG but he's an average PG (maybe a little bit above average) in a half court set. That's why i agreed with the comments that Doc made about some of today's guards not being able to hang with the type of game in the 80's. in the 80's the game was more physical. I still like Rondo and I like that fact that Ainge kept Rondo in the fold for the next 5 years but I don't think he's the player to build around....otherwise IMO we are looking at the Nets all over again.

The last team to a championship team built around a PG was the Lakers - Magic Johnson. [Though some would argue that the "bad boys" were Isiah Thomas's team.] I know, Rondo is no Magic Johnson blah... blah.. blah.... But I believe he can be a Magic Johnson. My evidence - th playoffs last year -- Johnson was the last star to average a triple double in the playoffs.

Rondo didn't quite get there, but was close....

16.9 pts, 9.8 assists 9.7 rebounds

That is Rondo's potential if we tell him to stop "being the ball caddy" as some call him and more time driving to the hoop as part of new schemes built around his talents.

There are a few people like myself who think he has that potential, and many who don't. But rather than argue about it, lets try. Lets give Rondo the chance to prove himself. Lets develop some new offensive schemes that use Rondo's driving ability and use them. [I say develop because we might want new player placement on the court. Now when Rondo drives, we usually have guys standing out on the 3 point line. We should have at least some players cutting, to get easier hoops. That would best use his talents.

I think the doubters will be surprised by the results. But unless we try we won't know will we. And as the Enchilada said, we are probably not going to win #18 with the way we have been playing so we have nothing to lose.

[return2glory]

Great article, elrod enchilada . You covered pretty much everything.

I don't understand why some fans were comparing this team to the 86 team. This current team is not close to the 1986 team, which may have been the best of all time. Bird and McHale were still in their primes. Bird was the best player in the leauge at the time. That team went 40-1 at home, and cruised in the playoffs on their way to the championship.

KG and Ray's games have slipped. Good thing we added Daniels to back up Ray. Wallace IMO won't help KG's decline because Wallace's play has declined more. Sheed can't move his feet to save his life.

As far as Rondo, he needs to be our best player. But for the Rondo era to begin, he has to hit his jumper's and his FT's. After 12 games, Rondo's shooting hs also declined.

The best big off our bench has to be Glen Davis and not Wallace. I just hope Doc doesn't stay in love with Sheed. Davis is the more important player and if given the minutes, he will prove that. For people that think Wallace is better than Davis, just remember it's 2009 playoffs. Sheed's game is looking more like " I Love Waltha" game. Want proof, look at the 2009 playoffs. Glen stepped up for his team and Wallace didn't do anything good for Detroit.

[JSABleedsGreen]

Wolves most people on here like to bash you and disagree with you because you are all about Rondo and you stick to your guns. Your not always right but your not always wrong either.

That being said i agree that Rondo is an amazing talent and he has tons of upside. It's not fair to mention Magic as the last PG to build a team around but Magic was not your typical PG. Magic was a PG with a PF's body. The man was 250-260 and was 6'9". Now magic also wasn't the best shooter but he wasn't awful. Also Magic did a lot of scoring on the break and also box. He could post up anyone because he had the body to do so. Rondo's game is completely different. Rondo has a knack of getting to the basket and that's his biggest asset. We all know what his flaw is. He also has a knack for finding the ball on offensive rebounds. He's a good rebounding PG in the NBA but do you think he can keep that up 5 years from now? Is it already showing? he's only getting 3.8 boards per game. His average last year was 5.2 for the year. Do you believe he can withstand the pounding he takes when he attacks the whole? He's only be a young 27 in 5 years but he'll be around 9 to 10 years in the league by then. IMO opinion.....I can totally see Rondo not attacking the hoop 3 years from now the same way he's attacking today. Just my opinion. He'll realize the punishment his body will take with all those collision in mid air and knockdowns and will decide to pick and choose his drives. Therefore we are back to his jumper....will he be a better jump shooter in 3 to 5 years? He has the time to do so....but can he? I'm not saying shooting is the easiest thing in the world but it's certainly not the hardest but he's struggling from the free throw line. Real bad too. What is he this year? shooting .250? 4 out of 16.....4? I mean it looks horrible too....idk.....i guess we'll see how goes as the season goeas along.

Getting back to the main topic....The Celtics this year need KG more than ever. They need Rondo to be Rondo of last year. Kendrick is already doing his best.....i mean the kid has really stepped up his game. Kudos to Perk. Will Big Baby bring some of that fire back from last year and be better?

Ray Allen needs more rest i think. I think Doc really needs to play Marquis more at 2 spelling Ray because Ray is looking older and older.

I think if the Celts get back to fundamentals they will be fine. I also think that they look at the schedule and say.....we got a bum team tonight and play with them for the first half only for teh games to be tight in the last 2 quarters. They need the eye of the tiger look back......someone call Carl Weathers and tell him to bring that Apollo Creed attitude eye of the tiger look for our C's

[jmr07019]

Great article but I think it begs the question "Do the Celtics need to trade KG". You can't win it all paying a guy 19 or 21 million if he is not making any of the all NBA teams. Of course I'm not saying the Celts should trade KG now but if by the all-star break he is only playing marginally better Danny would have some serious thinking to do.

As for Rondo and building a team around him, I have no doubt if Rondo developed a legit jump shot he would be close to ungaurdable. The only thing I would question is his killer instinct at the end of a game. Kobe is known as an assassin because he just kills teams with ridiculous shots as the clock winds down in the fourth quarter. It's tough to gage this quality in Rondo because he doesn't have a jumper yet. But if by the start of the 11-12 season Rondo can't make jumpers on a consistent basis I think it would be time to write off Rondo as a player to build around.

[Wolves2011]

Rondo has a knack of getting to the basket and that's his biggest asset. Do you believe he can withstand the pounding he takes when he attacks the whole? He's only be a young 27 in 5 years but he'll be around 9 to 10 years in the league by then. IMO opinion.....I can totally see Rondo not attacking the hoop 3 years from now the same way he's attacking today. Just my opinion. He'll realize the punishment his body will take with all those collision in mid air and knockdowns and will decide to pick and choose his drives.

Do I think Rondo will be attacking the rim in 3 years, absolutely!

What "pounding" is rondo taking? When he drives to the hoop he is usually not touched. I'm not saying thats a good thing, I think he should look for contact. But right now, he goes away from contact and mostly succeeds.

If he drove to the hoop much more often bigs would try to get in front of him and fail, or someone would "reach" and foul him. So those aren't the type of "hard fouls" little guys often get in the paint.

Rondo takes much more contact on defense than offense, blind side screens etc.

I don't see the problem that you do.

[exculpatory]

Elrod

Very nicely written and I agree with many of your points, but not all of them

KG will never be the KG of old again, and Ray is unfortunately on the decline. We can only hope they have enough left in the tank to get us 1 more banner, and possibly 2 more banners if we are really lucky.

Rondo does need to step it up big time and be given the ball more. He is extremely skilled at what he does best - INCREDIBLE speed, stirring the drink, court vision, amazing rebounding for his size, etc. However, I am afraid that he has a finite ceiling. I am sorry to say that, IMO, he unfortunately will NEVER be a consistent jump shooter or FT shooter. And therefore, he will be an excellent point, but NEVER a truly elite point to build around.

My major problem with what you wrote is that you continue to vastly underestimate Paul - just as most casual fans do, just as many of the so-called experts on ESPN etc do, and just as some of our own posters do. He is always underpraised when he is outstanding (which is most of the time), and some people are quick as hell to jump down his neck when he has an off game (which is the minority of the time).

Forget for a moment that I am the most fierce Truth homer in the history of chat boards, ok.

Objectively and sincerely speaking, Paul has been and still is the primary leader of this team, and his skills have NOT as yet diminished. He was EASILY the 1A to KG's 1A minus during the 2008 championship run - no frigging way in hell was he the number 2 guy. One needed the other just as much. Neither was or is capable of leading a team of above average to mediocre players to a banner by himself. Together, they did. Paul was the heart and soul of the offense (with excellent defensive skills), and KG obviously was the heart and soul of the defense (with excellent offensive skills).

Paul has proven himself to be one of the most superlative and COMPLETE offensive players of the last decade (I am talking about 2s and 3s - it is ridiculous to compare wings to points and bigs, and I do not know why this is routinely done). He is not flashy like Lebron, Kobe and DWade, but he can score from ANYWHERE on the court. He was (and still is) the guy who provided/provides whatever the team needed/needs on O - a random 30-40 point game when necessary, an isolated 20 point explosion in 1 quarter when necessary, clutch shots and PASSES during crunch time when necessary, or a solid complete 20 point game if none of the former was/is necessary (all this previous bull about Paul being a selfish player is in fact pure bull - he did what he had to do to carry **** teams in the past, but now, with other studs around him, he is the consummate, unselfish team player - even too frigging unselfish at times). Furthermore, because he was/is finally surrounded by other offensive studs in 2007, he has had the energy to demonstrate excelllent D - both one on one and team. He has always been an excellent passer, and has ALWAYS rebounded well for his size. True, when he is forced to handle too much, he is TO prone, but not excessively. His durabiity and ability to play hurt are extraordinary - he has barely missed a game except for an obligatory long down time during the 06-07 season (when, not surprisingly, we won 20 games or whatever).

To get another banner, KG and Ray have to demonstrate that they have enough left in the tank, and Rondo has to excel at what he does best. The Truth is still the Truth and will give us whatever is required game to game (95% of the time).

By the way, the Truth may be our only All Star this year, and I predict that he will be at least second team All Pro again.

Ex

[celticfan42487]

So we got the guy who thinks Rondo can be Magic Johnson, the one who thinks somehow Baby is a better player then Rasheed Wallace. One who think Walter McCarty was like Sheed [you do know that Rasheed plays defense and neither Baby or Walter can... right?]. And one who loves Paul Pierce.

I'm with the one who loves Paul Pierce.

[Setshot33]

Rondo Era?

Doesn't that require a jumpshot?

[Wolves2011]

So we got the guy who thinks Rondo can be Magic Johnson, the one who thinks somehow Baby is a better player then Rasheed Wallace. One who think Walter McCarty was like Sheed [you do know that Rasheed plays defense and neither Baby or Walter can... right?]. And one who loves Paul Pierce.

I'm with the one who loves Paul Pierce.

There aren't many great shock blockers any more and Rondo's never learned how to handle them. You go right at the shot blocker, in this case Howard, and then find his man for an easy hoop. I blame Doc for not making that the game plan. It also fouls out Howard.

[celticfan42487]

Doc isn't moving Rondo with a string like a puppet.

Game plan? You're either looking for contact or your not. Rondo isn't.

And with his frame, I don't think he could handle doing so. Then with his free throw it might actually be counter productive points wise (but as always fantastic for putting pressure on the defense and gathering fouls on those bigs.)

And not many great shot blockers? This is the era of athleticism. And that's all it takes to beat a guy like Rondo. Who eludes his way to the basket but can't do anything else to fake out the defense (like shoot).

LeBron, Wade, Howard, Josh Smith, Birdman, Marcus Camby. There will always be guys like this around the league as long as the NBA is the hallmark of basketball. And a gluttony of the others like Tyrus Thomas, Perkins, Haywood.

I'm sorry, maybe I"m just confounded as to what the Celtics should be doing to win. They need more contact drawing, and more post play. KG is hurt, Sheed hasn't played in the post in 3 years. And our PG can dribble but can't shoot or draw contact... it may be best to sacrifice many points and still have Rondo try and survive driving into the bigs in order to slow the game down and at least put pressure on the defense when he drives. They won't care about him shooting the ball, taking free throws, or making shots in traffic... but they will be fearfully of picking up that fourth foul in the third quarter. And that alone will allow him to create rather then stand in the corner hoping he doesn't have to take the shot.

[return2glory]

Once again, there is no Rondo era until Rondo can make jumpers. He is an offensive liability because of the lack of outside shooting. When we play against bigs that are shot blocking treats, Rondo has trouble scoring because he his driving to the basket points are taking away. Result 6 points vs. D. Howard and 18 points against a G.S. team with no shot blocking.

[Jammer]

Good points, Elrod.

I think you and I are the two who most often have tried to explain how dominant
Kevin Garnett had been in Minnesota, and during the 2008 Championship season,
leaving every other Celtic player in the dust.

Sorry, exculp, Pierce has never been a 1A. Never in his life has he performed at
the level of LeBron, Kobe or Wade. KG has consistently exceeded it for most of career.
That lost dominance is what Elrod has said is cataclysmic. Earlier in Pierce's career, when his numbers were more gaudy, his propensity for turnovers, lack of defensive focus and
overall shooting percentage kept him from ever achieving the lofty efficiency that
LeBron and Garnett, mostly, but also Wade and Kobe, have consistently achieved.

It's also evident that the Celtics offense has a problem scoring do to a lack of
shooters, and lack of post play.

The Celts could definately use a perimeter player at the PG or SF spots, in addition
to Eddie House, not to replace him, who can consistently hit outside shots.

There are only 4 true shooters, one of whom, Ray Allen, is in a slump right now,
and another, Eddie House, who is hot or cold.

That puts tremendous pressure on Pierce and KG to bring it every night,
because the ability to have a few guys hitting
lets the Rasheed Wallace's, Shelden Williams, Glen Davis' and Scalabrines get wide open looks.

I also agree that Rondo needs to take 5-7 mid-range jumpers per game to get used to
those shots being part of his everyday repertoire. The thing is,
with the Celtics facing incredible shooting from Phoenix, Atlanta and Indiana,
and being an ice cold 30-87 against Orlando
(Sheed, Rondo and Eddie were 8-34 (23.5%), the rest of the team was 22-53 (41% yikes)
the Celtics were extremely lucky to lose that game by 5, rather than 25, points.

[Wolves2011]

Doc isn't moving Rondo with a string like a puppet.

Game plan?

And not many great shot blockers? This is the era of athleticism. And that's all it takes to beat a guy like Rondo. Who eludes his way to the basket but can't do anything else to fake out the defense (like shoot).

LeBron, Wade, Howard, Josh Smith, Birdman, Marcus Camby. There will always be guys like this around the league as long as the NBA is the hallmark of basketball. And a gluttony of the others like Tyrus Thomas, Perkins, Haywood.

.

Yes, game plan. They develop a strategy to attack Howard. Most good coaches know how to do it. Rondo is an ideal weapon. They just haven't used him.

As for your list of athletic big men most haven't been a problem. Think about Chicago just for a second. They have both Noah and Tyrus Thomas. Rondo averaged a triple double in the playoffs, when they were game planning against him. Most shot blockers don't bother him much.

The only two have consistently been a problem. Howard and Lebron. Howard is extremely quick and a great leaper. Lebron is chasing rondo down into the middle, which most players can't do.

For Howard there is a simple strategy for attacking shot blockers. Its been used almost since the NBA was started. You attack the shot blocker on the dribble and when he steps up to block your shot you find his man for an easy hoop.

Its not quite as simple with Lebron because he isn't playing the classic shot blocking helper role, but with some thought a strategy can be developed.

Ask Tommy Heinsohn if he could develop a strategy for attacking both of these guys and anyone else that might be necessary. He's been watching guys attack shots blockers since the Russell days.

Our coach - Doc - has a routine. He hardly deviates from it. He almost never thinks outside the box. Maybe an "offensive assistant" to help Doc with that side of things like Thibodeau helps on defense. Something!!

I'm tired of watching the Celtics do the same thing over and over when it isn't working.

[GuyClinch]

Rondo's good. But Rondo doesn't appear to be good enough to have his era. I think some people are forgetting just how dominant Pierce was in his day. Sherm Douglas had his era too - and though Sherm was good its largely forgotten.. That guy was a heck of a competitor though.

[exculpatory]

Sorry Jammer. You are WRONG. Read what I wrote again. The difference between the Truth and other elite wings like Lebron/Kobe/DWade is much much smaller than people think. And you are living on another planet if you think KG contributed more to the 2008 banner than Paul. As I wrote in my long post, it was Paul 1A and KG 1A minus - perfect compliments to each other with different Superstar skillsets. Feel free to continue underestimate Paul.

[GuyClinch]

Never in his life has he performed at the level of LeBron, Kobe or Wade

Wait who won the finals MVP? Who outplayed Lebron in a clutch 7 game series? Sorry dude you can say those guys are better - or have had better careers. But for that playoff run Paul Pierce was awesome. You have to be a stone cold hater to think otherwise. Both Lebron and Kobe gave Paul his props.

I too thought KG was much better then Paul. But after a season of watching them both those ideas evaporated for most fans.

[Jammer]

Never in his life has he performed at the level of LeBron, Kobe or Wade

Wait who won the finals MVP? Who outplayed Lebron in a clutch 7 game series? Sorry dude you can say those guys are better - or have had better careers. But for that playoff run Paul Pierce was awesome. You have to be a stone cold hater to think otherwise. Both Lebron and Kobe gave Paul his props.

I too thought KG was much better then Paul. But after a season of watching them both those ideas evaporated for most fans.

Dude, we're not talking about a game.
We're talking about a season.

All those 3 point or less losses in the 66 win season, with LeBron or Wade,
would have been wins.

Pierce dials it up once in a while. Even playing D the past two years.
82games.com has been posting NET PER for a while now. But they went back and analyzed
some of the top players a few years farther back. They have had a lot of articles over the past
bunch of years. Garnett was always the gold standard. Pierce was not on the radar.
It's a cruel system, but that's why I only mentioned the 66 win season.
When Pierce finally had a great team, he got it done once it a while.
There were too may 3 point or less losses that would never have happened with
LeBron or Wade at the helm.

But he STILL IS the offensive key. Garnett is a shadow of his former self,
and exculp, there was a reason Garnett was the leading All-Star vote getter in 2008,
a lot of fans respected his game to make him the most popular choice,
despite his years in small market Minnesota. This is something we can agree to disagree on.

Although Pierce is the best scorer in Celtics history, as a two way player,
he's never been at the level of the top 5 players in the game.

[GuyClinch]

Pierce dials it up once in a while. Even playing D the past two years.
82games.com has been posting NET PER for a while now. But they went back and analyzed
some of the top players a few years farther back.

Interesting when only Pierce is playing close to his normal level (out of the three) he is getting this negative feedback. Like I said I did think like you prior to the start of the championship season. But you know what - there is something about being a go-to guy, a clutch player and a guy who can kick it up when needed that put Paul better then where his stats would have had you believe.

And now he has the championship and finals MVP to prove it. KG for all his statistical greatness did pretty awful in Minnesota where PP managed the ECF with Antione Walker of all people.. Part of the deal like i said is that KG played like an animal every second of every game in Minn. PP on the other hand will coast at times. That's an insult but it works out well for us. He gets other people involved on offense now and saves more energy for D.

Rondo is another coaster IMHO. You still got to like the guy but he needs to tie the coasting performance to the team situation and not going against a "stud."

Pete