Beeston confirms - Halladay won't re-sign

[SharoneWright]

Beeston tells the NY Post - Halladay is not inclined to re-sign. This certainly does imply the Jays did try to open discussions about an extension, but Roy waved them off. Its too bad. I hope the parting will be amicable, and Roy strings together enough more wins to enter the Hall as a Jay.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4677979

[cb4_89]

Just trade him now then. I am not mad at Doc at all. He deserves to have management want to win and spend. They don't want that so whatever. I will wish Doc the best wherever he plays. But if he gets traded to the Yankees o Red Sox then I am done with the jays basically.

[zilby]

Just trade him now then. I am not mad at Doc at all. He deserves to have management want to win and spend. They don't want that so whatever. I will wish Doc the best wherever he plays. But if he gets traded to the Yankees o Red Sox then I am done with the jays basically.

+1

[Duffman100]

Just trade him now then. I am not mad at Doc at all. He deserves to have management want to win and spend. They don't want that so whatever. I will wish Doc the best wherever he plays. But if he gets traded to the Yankees o Red Sox then I am done with the jays basically.

That's ridiculous. Even if we get the best package from one of the teams, you're done as a fan?

We aren't going to contend for another 5 years, so who cares where Doc goes?

[5DOM]

Just trade him now then. I am not mad at Doc at all. He deserves to have management want to win and spend. They don't want that so whatever. I will wish Doc the best wherever he plays. But if he gets traded to the Yankees o Red Sox then I am done with the jays basically.

That's ridiculous. Even if we get the best package from one of the teams, you're done as a fan?

We aren't going to contend for another 5 years, so who cares where Doc goes?

You are right, but I can understand cb4_89.
It's going to hurt so much to see Doc in a Yankees or Redsox uniform

[cb4_89]

Just trade him now then. I am not mad at Doc at all. He deserves to have management want to win and spend. They don't want that so whatever. I will wish Doc the best wherever he plays. But if he gets traded to the Yankees o Red Sox then I am done with the jays basically.

That's ridiculous. Even if we get the best package from one of the teams, you're done as a fan?

We aren't going to contend for another 5 years, so who cares where Doc goes?

We aren't ever going to contend. This isn't a lets get a few more players and then we will be good thing. We have like a 2% chance of making the playoffs once in the next 10 years. Even with a decent club we have no chance. This management isn't going to spend now or in the future. This isn't a Carter situation where we have a Bosh waiting. Right now the only two good players we have are Hill and Lind. That isn't going to do anything.

I have no interest in rooting for a team that knows they are going to suck and won't do anything about it. And on top of that give one of the best players in the game to a rival. At least in the NBA the rebuilding process can actually happen. Here with the no salary cap and cheap management and horrible GMs and coaches, we have no chance at all. It isn't a we know we will suck for a year or two and then we will be better and battling for the playoffs. This is a we know we will suck for AT LEAST 5 years and then after that most likely.

I have no patience for that. I don't think id even watch baseball that much. Even this year I mostly watched Halladay games because we were competitive with him. I would watch Halladay pitch for whatever team he was traded to and root for them to win the title. Wouldn't be a fan of any team really.

[Duffman100]

Just trade him now then. I am not mad at Doc at all. He deserves to have management want to win and spend. They don't want that so whatever. I will wish Doc the best wherever he plays. But if he gets traded to the Yankees o Red Sox then I am done with the jays basically.

That's ridiculous. Even if we get the best package from one of the teams, you're done as a fan?

We aren't going to contend for another 5 years, so who cares where Doc goes?

We aren't ever going to contend. This isn't a lets get a few more players and then we will be good thing. We have like a 2% chance of making the playoffs once in the next 10 years. Even with a decent club we have no chance. This management isn't going to spend now or in the future. This isn't a Carter situation where we have a Bosh waiting. Right now the only two good players we have are Hill and Lind. That isn't going to do anything.

I have no interest in rooting for a team that knows they are going to suck and won't do anything about it. And on top of that give one of the best players in the game to a rival. At least in the NBA the rebuilding process can actually happen. Here with the no salary cap and cheap management and horrible GMs and coaches, we have no chance at all. It isn't a we know we will suck for a year or two and then we will be better and battling for the playoffs. This is a we know we will suck for AT LEAST 5 years and then after that most likely.

I have no patience for that. I don't think id even watch baseball that much. Even this year I mostly watched Halladay games because we were competitive with him. I would watch Halladay pitch for whatever team he was traded to and root for them to win the title. Wouldn't be a fan of any team really.

Baseball isn't like Basketball...you can't rebuild in a year, two or three. Especially the situation we're in now, it's going to take a while. But a big step to rebuilding, is dealing an asset (Halladay) that will command a fantastic package. If we were a few players away, we wouldn't deal Halladay.

Management IS doing something about us contending, they are starting the long, slow process that baseball requires. Quite frankly, JP should have started this process 5 years ago, but he didn't.

If you are just going to ditch the Blue Jays, its your choice. But it will define you as a classic fair weather fan...and honestly, that really isn't a fan at all. The package we get from Halladay will do a lot for our system.

PS I'm not just a glutton for punishment. I protest by not purchasing tickets, jerseys etc. I only support by watching every single game, in a vain attempt to see hope. I'm aware they suck, as do the Raptors, as do the Leafs. But if I gave up on every crappy team I support, I wouldn't have sports to look forward to.

[Dr Positivity]

I'm probably in the minority that wouldn't mind Roy going to Yankees or Red Sox.

To me, we had Doc for 10 amazing years and basically wasted it considering we never even got close to the playoffs. He deserves to pitch in the playoffs and in those important games and to reach his full career potential he needs to. Yes it'll mean the Yankees kick our ass more... but they're going to do that anyways.

Perhaps I just care more about Halladay than I do the Blue Jays at this point. But it would hurt me more to see Halladay stay with the Blue Jays and ending his prime or career without going to the playoffs, than to see him pitch on the Yankees or Red Sox

Oh and the best return we can get for Halladay is by making the Yankees and Red Sox try and outbid each other. That never fails. It's even in the realm of possibility they consider taking Vernon. The Red Sox are desperate right now. Let's say we tell them you can either take Vernon and Roy together and give us some prospect, or we're dealing Roy to the Yankees for Phil Hughes + filler. If you're the Red Sox, you have to take that deal, the money doesn't matter. Especially after the Yankees kicked their ass on Teixeria last year and it burned them

Getting rid of Vernon is more important than the prospects here. If Boston is willing to take Vernon and Roy and give up prospects but no Buchholtz, we should do that. Just cut it full clean and start over with Lind and Snider, for as long as Vernon is here we're going to be screwed

[Morris_Shatford]

Its so rare that I come across a situation where a player basically says he is done with a city, and I am in complete and utter agreement with his reasoning.

We are no where close to contending, and the dude is going to 33 early into next season.
There is a very real chance that his next contract will be his last multi-year deal in baseball.

He has shown loads of loyalty to this city and this franchise, and he deserves to go out and have a chance to breath the air in a playoff game.

Coupled with the fact that his massive contract will come off the books certainly does not hurt a team with a small budget and an unmovable Vernon Wells.

[SharoneWright]

If Boston is willing to take Vernon and Roy and give up prospects but no Buchholtz, we should do that.

If Boston is willing to take Vernon and Roy and give up a dozen maple bats, we should do that.

1)I wish Roy all the best anywhere including NY or Bos.

2)I don't think any team would take Vernon in a package, even if they had to give up nothing in return. I would attempt to trade Vernon and Roy together plus eat half of VDub's salary and still take nothing back. Vernon's contract is that oppressive both in size and duration ---- such a collosal blunder.

[Hoopstarr]

This isn't something we didn't already know since July. We weren't just offering up our franchise player in July for the heck of it.

[Schad]

If Boston is willing to take Vernon and Roy and give up prospects but no Buchholtz, we should do that.

If Boston is willing to take Vernon and Roy and give up a dozen maple bats, we should do that.

1)I wish Roy all the best anywhere including NY or Bos.

2)I don't think any team would take Vernon in a package, even if they had to give up nothing in return. I would attempt to trade Vernon and Roy together plus eat half of VDub's salary and still take nothing back. Vernon's contract is that oppressive both in size and duration ---- such a collosal blunder.

Wells' contract isn't as big of a problem going forward as our lack of young talent...IMO, having two or more good, cost-controlled kids on the roster is more important in getting our payroll under control than dumping half (or all) of Wells' contract at this point.

[SharoneWright]

If Boston is willing to take Vernon and Roy and give up prospects but no Buchholtz, we should do that.

If Boston is willing to take Vernon and Roy and give up a dozen maple bats, we should do that.

1)I wish Roy all the best anywhere including NY or Bos.

2)I don't think any team would take Vernon in a package, even if they had to give up nothing in return. I would attempt to trade Vernon and Roy together plus eat half of VDub's salary and still take nothing back. Vernon's contract is that oppressive both in size and duration ---- such a collosal blunder.

Wells' contract isn't as big of a problem going forward as our lack of young talent...IMO, having two or more good, cost-controlled kids on the roster is more important in getting our payroll under control than dumping half (or all) of Wells' contract at this point.

Valid point, both are obviously problems. But I think I still disagree. Every decision for the next 5 years will be based on cost because of Wells' contract. If the average team in MLB makes personnel decisions based on a 50/50 'cost decision' vs. 'babeball decision', the Jays will make decisions weighted at least around 80/20 with cost being the most important factor. This will range from signing bonuses, trades, free-agency, re-signing our guys, minor league callups, time on DL, even extra money for the front office and scouting department. We've already see them trade Rios (young talent?) for nothing just to cut cost. Trading Rolen was smart, but also a cost-cutting move. Now they can't resign Roy due to financial reasons and because they can't afford a winning team to put behind him. I don't think a couple of young talented kids fills that gap. Nor does missing a few good young kids affect the baseball operations side of things the way Vernon does. But it is now the only thing we are left with... The Jays now need a whole bunch of cheap budding talent (not exactly easy to find) to help mitigate costs.. We have to be the KG Timberwolves... Wells' contract insists upon it...

[-MetA4-]

Oh and the best return we can get for Halladay is by making the Yankees and Red Sox try and outbid each other. That never fails.

Not even remotely true, see: the Johan Santana trade.

This is a common myth, and in fact the opposite may be true. The Red Sox have become a very value-oriented team, to the point where many people have suggested that the so called "NYY/BOS player clashes" in the recent trade market have been scenarios where the Red Sox have actually faked interest just long enough for the Yankees to grow tired and move elsewhere, thus resulting in the supposed player they were "fighting" for ending up somewhere completely else. The Red Sox would certainly love to have Halladay, but it will be at their cost, and if that is not attainable then I fully expect them to attempt to drag the process out in the hope that the Yankees get agitated and pull out completely (as was the case in the Santana trade).

[Schad]

Valid point, both are obviously problems. But I think I still disagree. Every decision for the next 5 years will be based on cost because of Wells' contract. If the average team in MLB makes personnel decisions based on a 50/50 'cost decision' vs. 'babeball decision', the Jays will make decisions weighted at least around 80/20 with cost being the most important factor. This will range from signing bonuses, trades, free-agency, re-signing our guys, minor league callups, time on DL, even extra money for the front office and scouting department. We've already see them trade Rios (young talent?) for nothing just to cut cost. Trading Rolen was smart, but also a cost-cutting move. Now they can't resign Roy due to financial reasons and because they can't afford a winning team to put behind him. I don't think a couple of young talented kids fills that gap. Nor does missing a few good young kids affect the baseball operations side of things the way Vernon does. But it is now the only thing we are left with... The Jays now need a whole bunch of cheap budding talent (not exactly easy to find) to help mitigate costs.. We have to be the KG Timberwolves... Wells' contract insists upon it...

I don't think our financial situation is that dire, despite the Rios dump, whereas our lack of quality youngsters is. Using Halladay solely to move Wells (assuming a team would actually do it) would free up salary, but the likelihood is that the money would end up plowed back into the major league team, and we'd still have nary a good prospect. Scouting dollars have already been allotted in bulk, and with that the assumption that they are committed to spending on that side regardless...otherwise, it doesn't make much sense to plow that much money into amateur/pro scouting).

It's true, though, that looking at it from a purely cost/benefit perspective it might make sense...if he remains in CF, Wells probably gives you no more than $15m in value over 5 years for that $100m (his RoR was negative this past year), and it would take two excellent players to exceed that value plus the $15-30m they stand to make over that period (assuming you get back a guy like Hughes that would get paid in arbitration).

[SharoneWright]

Valid point, both are obviously problems. But I think I still disagree. Every decision for the next 5 years will be based on cost because of Wells' contract. If the average team in MLB makes personnel decisions based on a 50/50 'cost decision' vs. 'babeball decision', the Jays will make decisions weighted at least around 80/20 with cost being the most important factor. This will range from signing bonuses, trades, free-agency, re-signing our guys, minor league callups, time on DL, even extra money for the front office and scouting department. We've already see them trade Rios (young talent?) for nothing just to cut cost. Trading Rolen was smart, but also a cost-cutting move. Now they can't resign Roy due to financial reasons and because they can't afford a winning team to put behind him. I don't think a couple of young talented kids fills that gap. Nor does missing a few good young kids affect the baseball operations side of things the way Vernon does. But it is now the only thing we are left with... The Jays now need a whole bunch of cheap budding talent (not exactly easy to find) to help mitigate costs.. We have to be the KG Timberwolves... Wells' contract insists upon it...

I don't think our financial situation is that dire, despite the Rios dump, whereas our lack of quality youngsters is. Using Halladay solely to move Wells (assuming a team would actually do it) would free up salary, but the likelihood is that the money would end up plowed back into the major league team, and we'd still have nary a good prospect. Scouting dollars have already been allotted in bulk, and with that the assumption that they are committed to spending on that side regardless...otherwise, it doesn't make much sense to plow that much money into amateur/pro scouting).

It's true, though, that looking at it from a purely cost/benefit perspective it might make sense...if he remains in CF, Wells probably gives you no more than $15m in value over 5 years for that $100m (his RoR was negative this past year), and it would take two excellent players to exceed that value plus the $15-30m they stand to make over that period (assuming you get back a guy like Hughes that would get paid in arbitration).

OK, extra money for scouting was a bit of a stretch on my part... And I also assume the money (or a significant portion) would be plowed back into the major league team; which would at least buy you a couple of decent free agents to improve the major league product - even if we have nary a good prospect. As far as I'm concerned, that 85million$ difference in value between what we are paying for Vernon and what he is worth (as you outline) is easily more impactful than the possession of a couple of good/cheap prospects. And maybe I am overly nervous, but I really do fear for the financial viability of the Jays - all I can say is thank goodness the CDN dollar is no longer worth 68 cents US. At least by trading Halladay we should be able to acquire a couple of cheap contributers for the next 2-3 years....

[Schad]

OK, extra money for scouting was a bit of a stretch on my part... And I also assume the money (or a significant portion) would be plowed back into the major league team; which would at least buy you a couple of decent free agents to improve the major league product - even if we have nary a good prospect.

This is what I want to avoid, though...there's no point in improving the team by three or four or five wins short-term, because it still doesn't result in a playoff spot. And at worst, it can delude management into chasing that white whale if we win a few games more than expected.

As far as I'm concerned, that 85million$ difference in value between what we are paying for Vernon and what he is worth (as you outline) is easily more impactful than the possession of a couple of good/cheap prospects.

Not necessarily. Take Hughes; Fangraphs has his true value at over $10m a year, and he made pennies. And a good young player like Montero, especially one that plays a premium position, can have a value 20 times their salary.