Does Woody not realize?

[ATL DirtyBird]

OK, I konw for the past couple of days people are calling for Joe's head, but is this Woodys fault? Josh had a problem the last couple years with his poor shot selection and effort, but now seems to be cured and is playing at a scary level. Joe on the other hand has been a ball hog for about two years now and its finally starting to pop out with the success of the team around him. People realize the enormous potential of the cast as a whoel and it seems taht Joe is the one player thats hindering further progression. Josh attributes the increase in maturity to natural maturation. Woody didnt have control of Josh and it now seems he doesnt have control of Joe.

Is Woody a pushover for Joe? Does Woody not realize or does Woody honeslty beleive that Joes 22 second iso sessions ending with a contested fadeaway give us the best chances?

Sorry for harpign on this for so long and I know this is one of the many flaws that plague this still inmature team but this is one glaring aspect that can easily be fixed. ALl the others will come with time and experience!

[killbuckner]

Sneakerking- How do you think the Hawks offense has performed this season?

[azuresou1]

Sneakerking- How do you think the Hawks offense has performed this season?

I KNOW you're going to post the metrics about how we're a very efficient offense, because you've done it before multiple times. The problem is that the metrics don't differentiate between when we run a smooth, efficient offense with lots of ball movement, and when we run iso-Joe. The difference is as clear as night and day, but you wouldn't be able to tell, even within a game, because we might play an excellent half and then for the entire second half revert to Joe ballhogging for 18 seconds of the clock. Case in point, the Orlando game.

As for the topic, Woody is part of the problem. A coach that can't demand the respect of his players needs to step it up. Can you imagine Phil Jackson letting Kobe iso for 20 seconds and then either chucking up a bad shot or making a last second pass to Derek Fisher who has to chuck one up? No, because

A) Kobe wouldn't iso for 20 seconds, if he didn't have a look he'd swing it to reset it
B) Kobe is better at getting a look than Joe
C) Kobe knows how to throw an entry pass when there's a mismatch in the post
D) Phil Jackson would flip **** if Kobe did that instead of throwing an entry pass to Pau or Bynum, bench him for a few minutes, and yell at him while he's coming over
E) Kobe wouldn't do that **** anyways unless it was a tie game and it's the 4th quarter and he's going for the game winner

Isolation should NEVER be the number 1 option, unless the mismatch is so gaping that it's begging to be taken advantage of. We're talking about LeBron vs Jason Kapono or Dwight Howard vs Channing Frye. Note that we don't really have any huge mismatches with most teams. We should be moving the ball around and working to get the best look with multiple screens and cuts to the basket, and iso-Joe is the antithesis of that.

[killbuckner]

azuresou1- How do you think the Hawks offense has performed this season?

[azuresou1]

4th best; I read Hollinger enough to know this. What's that have to do with my assertion that our offense has two entirely different modes?

[killbuckner]

ITS THE 4TH BEST OFFENSE IN THE LEAGUE AND YOU ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT IT. If Woodson had been fired in the offseason and another coach were putting up those kinds of numbers I would be here singing their praise because I don't at all think the Hawks have the 4th most talented team in the league on offense. There are at least 10 teams that I think should finish ahead of the hawks given the personnel they have and yet the Hawks are somehow getting it done. I just can't believe that Woodson is getting the blame for the Hawks having the 4th best offense in the league. I don't care how the Hawks are getting it done- but when a coach has this team in the top 5 on offense I think he deserves some credit.

[ATL DirtyBird]

^^^ Im not blaming Woodson im asking if Woodson is to blame for Joes selfish play. Woody has done a fair job with the personnel. Joe is getting the blame for this.

Do you like the Hawks offense when itbecomes a half court slug fest? IF you tell me yes your a moron. Theres not consistent ball movement but theres always one constant, when joe touches the ball it doesnt move.

[JoshB914]

Joe only has himself to blame. He is our best player and we have no choice but to give him the ball multiple times to let him create. He is the one that can't figure out how to score the basketball and get his teammates involved at the same time.

It surprises me people are just noticing this, as this as been a major problem with JJ for years, although he has taken his one-man-show up a notch so far this season.

[parson]

I think Woodson (and a lot of NBA coaches, especially those who used to be assistant coaches in the NBA) believes that isolations aimed at the other team's weaknesses is the way to play offense. I think, in the NBA, when crunch time comes, isolation plays are the usual card played. That means that Woodson is, right now, probably plotting how to free Joe from the double teams and cussin' his other players for not helping Joe with his thousand-dribble isolation excursions.

Buuuut, anyone who has watched our offense flounder when Joe starts to pound the ball and STILL thinks we're a good offense (listening, Woodson?) is blind, blind, blind. We're a good offense DESPITE Joe's selfishness, not because of it. However, if Woodson couldn't see the utter ineptitude of our offense in the 2nd half against ORL (for example), when Joe saw $$$$ signs in front of his eyes, then he's more than blind, he's doomed.

[killbuckner]

The Hawks offense has floundered to be 4th in the league.

The Hawks offense got shut down by Orlando because Orlando is a really good defensive team. When Howard is allowed to freely patrol the paint then it turns every team into a jumpshooting team. the way to attack them is to have a legitimate post threat that can occupy Howard or to have bigs that can shoot from the outside to Draw Howard away from the basket- the Hawks have neither of those things. I just don't see how you can blame Joe Johnson for this.

[azuresou1]

Actually, the way to attack Orlando is to go right at Dwight and give him early fouls. The teams that have done that have had success. And what about New Orleans and Detroit? Is Charlie Villanueva some defensive god now?

I don't see how you're excusing Joe Johnson when he just shot 5-19, 3-8, 9-21, 6-18, and 6-18 again. Heck, we almost lost in Portland too, when he shot 13-31. He shot the same number of shots as Bibby, Horford, and Crawford combined.

I know you're a Joe/Woody homer, but please open your eyes and see how drastically different our offense, and even our defense is when we run iso-Joe vs a team motion offense. I say defense, because Smoove thrives on energy, and when Joe pounds the ball, Smoove is the player most affected because he can't shoot so he has to wait for either his man to leave him a lane to the bucket or to nab a putback, which he rarely does when Joe isos, because face it, it's boring to watch someone else do everything. Then, he tries less on defense, picks up cheap fouls, gets pissy, and then argues with refs and picks up techs, and gets benched.

[killbuckner]

I think the Hawks offense is better when they let Joe create with teh ball in his hands than when they make other lousy offensive players intiiate the offense. I don't want a motion offense that gives Josh Smith the ball in a place where he can only screw something up. I WANT him to get the ball after the opposition has already doubled Joe after an isolation and he can attack the rim. THats how Josh Smith should be used in the half court set. I wouldn't give him the ball unless the defense is already unsettled so its more like the transition game where the thrives.

[azuresou1]

I think the Hawks offense is better when they let Joe create with teh ball in his hands than when they make other lousy offensive players intiiate the offense. I don't want a motion offense that gives Josh Smith the ball in a place where he can only screw something up. I WANT him to get the ball after the opposition has already doubled Joe after an isolation and he can attack the rim. THats how Josh Smith should be used in the half court set. I wouldn't give him the ball unless the defense is already unsettled so its more like the transition game where the thrives.

Who said anything about initiating the offense? I never said a single thing about anyone else handling the ball. That's ENTIRELY different than a flowing, seamless series of screens and cuts both to and away from the basket with excellent ball movement.

Watch a Lakers game when they have Kobe, Pau, and Odom in and they're actually running the triangle. It's a damn work of art. Compare that to the ugliness and inefficiency that is iso-Joe.

Since I know for a fact you're planning on rebutting that previous comment with a post about offensive efficiency, and how we're 4th and they're 13th: we probably get way more fast break points than them, mostly generated off of defense, and we play about a 8 1/2 man rotation most nights, while they usually have such a big lead by the 2nd quarter that they can put in DJ Mbenga and Adam Morrison every night. This would be like if we were so good that we could play RanMo and Jason Collins every night and not have it affect us because we were blowing out fools left and right.

[killbuckner]

The Hawks have a roster built to be more effective in transition than in the halfcourt yet you are criticising Woodson for working the offense around that fact.

The Lakers have a prettier offense because they have much much better players on offense. The Lakers SHOULD have a better offense than the Hawks when they ahve guys like Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Artest, and Odom. THey are simply the better team.

Orlando should have a better offense with Howard, Carter, Nelson, and Lewis. Duncan, Parker, Manu, Jefferson. Carmelo, Billups, Smith, Nene. Nash, Amare, Barbosa, Ricardson. All these teams should have better offenses than the Hawks even if both teams get good coaching.

The Hawks have absolutely no post threat on the team and no bigs who can step outside and to draw their defender's away from the basket. They ahve just 2 guys who can consistently exploit a weak defender. Yet with all that the Hawks have the 4th best offense in the league and you are still criticizing them. I just don't get it. If the Hawks were 15th in the league then absolutely criticize Woodson all you wnat for being uncreative on offense. Hell- you can criticize the defensive system all you want and I won't care. But when the Hawks are overachieving on offense I think you should be giving Woodson credit instead of bitching abou the team not playing pretty enough.

[azuresou1]

You think Woody MEANINGFULLY works the offense based on transition? LOL

Like I just said, we DON'T have the 4th best offense in the league; offensive efficiency (the stat) is not a true indicator of how good an offense is, which is why the Lakers are 13th. Should I give Woody credit for playing our starters more minutes than Phil Jackson plays his starters? Because that's what Offensive Efficiency does. Also, this oft-held criticism that we have no bigs who can draw defenders away from the basket is flawed.

A, Al now has a respectable midrange jumper, which he is apparently making at 46.4%, which is not as high as in close, but happens to be a whopping 0.1% less than Joe's jumper. Obviously Joe takes harder shots, but Horford is hitting jumpers at close to the same rate and value as Joe.

B, We shouldn't be trying to necessarily draw defenders away from the basket anyways, because we have two extremely athletic albeit undersized bigs. Drawing defenders away from the basket is for an outside-in game, and one that is ultimately only as reliable as your jumpshot. As soon as it stops falling, defenders can just sag off, and our offense stops. Instead, we should run inside-out and be attacking the basket with our bigs and kicking it out if it's not there, which also nets us more FTs.

[killbuckner]

You can't run an offense inside out when don't have a post threat on the roster. orlando can run inside out. The lakers can run inside out. On the Hawks the forwards are lousy halfcourt players and running the offense inside out would be a gift to the other team.

[azuresou1]

The stats and evidence would indicate otherwise, just like your false assertion that Al Horford can't shoot.

Boris Diaw and Tyson Chandler is an offensively challenged frontcourt.
Luis Scola and Chuck Hayes is an offensively challenged frontcourt.
Vladmir Radmanovic and Mikki Moore is an offensively challenged frontcourt.

The fact is that there are only a handful of teams with better post threats - Boston, LA, Orlando, Utah, Memphis (lulz) and probably Denver, although it's marginally so.

Are we much better in transition? Obviously. But if we don't get the fastbreak, and we don't get the immediate resulting open jumper, we should take it from the inside before attempting an outside shot.

[killbuckner]

Uhhhh... all those teams run guard initiated offenses. None of them are anywhere close to "inside out".

You don't think that Utah has a better post threat? You don't think that Amare is more of a threat in the post than what the Hawks have? Seriously this is your argument?

[azuresou1]

Funny, I CTRL + F'd my last post for "inside out," and I couldn't find any results. How odd.

I said all those teams have better post threats. All of them are also much better at getting the ball into the hands of their post players, even if just to reset. How did Al only get 3 shots against Orlando? I know Dwight is a big presence, but THREE? Even Zaza took 6.

No iso-based team has won recently. It's just not a winning style of ball. The more a team runs iso-play, the less likely that team is to win. Isolation pretty much nullifies the talent and abilities of the other 4 people on the court, except as a potential 'threat' to catch a pass leading to a shot attempt. Thus the defense, although it still needs to be aware of where the other 4 players are, can pay more attention to the lone man creating. Supremely talented players like LeBron or CP3 can still get good percentages, but it's not the best look for a team.

A good offense takes advantage of all the talents of every player, and the ONLY instance I can think of where isolation would be the best option would be a superstar playing with 4 players who are all undersized, can't handle the ball whatsoever, can't make layups or dunks (except the C, and barely), can't set screens for whatever reason, have zero offensive IQ, but all have amazing hands and can shoot like nobody's business (except the C, who can't shoot).

I seriously hope you don't believe this is still the same team from 04-05 which was hot garbage, and an instance where iso-Joe is actually okay.

EDIT* I said no iso-based team has won recently. I looked back, and at the very least no team since 1979 has won being Iso dominant - I didn't watch the '79 Sonics so I wouldn't know.

[killbuckner]

Did you happen to miss the Heat winning the championship with Wade? Do you really want to try and claim that team wasn't iso dominant? Did you happen to watch the finals that year?

With the handchecking rules Iso's are in my opinion the best way to attack a defense. Having a post threat is great to exploit teams with weak frontlines but if you don't have a post threat then hell yes I would be inititating the offense by letting my strongest offensive players beat someone 1 on 1 then exploiting the defense after the defense is unsettled.